10+ year Carnivore, mother, coach, and creator Kelly Hogan!

[Music] all right hello everyone this is uh dr anthony jafe i have a very special guest today uh kelly hogan who was kind enough to have me on her show a while back and i'm very grateful that she's she's coming on to mine uh kelly how how are you thanks for coming on hey man good to see you again thanks for having me yeah you as well um how have you been i haven't talked to you in a while any any any news in kelly hogan land food wise same as you know the last 12 years as far as in my own life our family moved to this home in the last few months so we had a lot of changes with that and i started a certification program recently through dr ifland joan ifland um to become a food addiction recovery advocate so that's been taking up a lot of my time but in like a really good way other than that same thing lovely um well for for people that don't don't know who you are and don't know your story can you tell us just a bit about yourself and and how you came to carnivore and doing what you're doing yes so i grew up in a family that was um very much standard american i didn't have a whole lot of childhood traumas but i definitely did struggle with my weight my brother and i we ate at the same table we you know my parents it's not that they served us a lot of garbage food but they bought into the 80s idea of fat is bad so if anyone is getting fat we better cut out the fat so we ate at the same table but my brother ended up really skinny and i ended up really not um and it bothered me my whole childhood i got picked on just a little bit nothing horrific but enough you know just chubby chubby this tell me that i don't want to be chubby it really did bother me so by the time i got to high school i was gaining weight quicker but i decided this is it you can't gain weight if you don't eat so i became i began some really um not cool practices like if it was prom time i would just only allow myself one little lean cuisine per day that was it and i could lose weight i mean obviously you're eating like nothing i would drink a carnation instead of breakfast per day sometimes like that was all i would allow myself and i could lose weight and then as soon as obviously human nature takes over you must have food i would gain it all back plus some so i did that for a few years of high school went off to college and they gave us this little card called the cat card and it was our meal plan and you could go they had a chick-fil-a on campus they had um all these buffet style dining halls and you could use my cat card was free every year i was on a scholarship all you can eat and i was studying hard and i was stressing and i was like a really good student but i was eating all the time and by the time i graduated i had gained another additional 50 pounds from when i started i was engaged about that time got married and as a newlywed i was 262 pounds and my husband was very loving he liked me just fine he also had a little bit of a weight problem things were pretty good until then my health started bothering me so up until then it was all like just a weight struggle and i've heard someone say only the lucky ones get fat now i used to be very offended by this like you just don't know what it's like to deal with your weight if you think you're lucky but i get what they're saying sometimes health problems manifest as like autoimmune issues and sometimes you're you know just heavy up until age 25 i was basically just heavy and then i started getting boils and i thought at first it was like a hygiene thing am i using the wrong soaps what's wrong with me if no one if you've never had a boil they're very deep seeded like a giant bump basically that gets infected they can get staph infections in them and i would have to go to the doctor repeatedly many times to get them lanced which basically means cut open and drained and i go home to pack them with gauze for a couple weeks it was awful man i was getting them on my legs my thighs my backside again i was very heavy at that point and so i'd have to go to the doctor's office and bend over the table it was not not fun times i was 25 25. okay so the doctor he was a very blunt old man and he said he's looking at his chart i can still see him so clearly his name was dr benjamin dunlap he's still alive but i think he's around 90 now he said well miss hogan we're going to just keep doing this until one of us dies oh my gosh does he think it's him or me that's not good okay and he said or you could lose a hundred pounds and then i just cried i don't think a lot of doctors these days are probably quite that boom with their patients i don't know but i cried and i needed to hear that and i said i have tried you don't know i've really tried i don't know how to lose 100 pounds and he said it you're inflamed it's the carbohydrates well i don't even really know what that means it was 2004 and i had heard of carbohydrates i'd heard of dr atkins but i really didn't know what what a carb was so he told me he said for one year i want you to eat as much meat eggs and cheese as you want quote leafy greens won't kill you um no sodas and i'll see you in a year and i was like or you know sooner than that because i was coming to him a lot with these boils one year passed not a single more boil i walked in i was in his office he walked out he looked at me he looked at the chart ms hogan yes he said what did you do i said i only ate the things you told me to eat for one year and he said no one has ever listened to me [Laughter] i lost 80 pounds in the first year yeah and and i literally i it wasn't just the weight i really looked like a different person and i felt like a different person things weren't perfect for me yet because for five years i did follow his advice and i did include some plants in the form of leafy greens pickles and green beans not a lot it was mostly meat but i did include diet sodas because you know zero carb five years this was 2004 to 2009. by 2009 i was hungry because i wasn't including a lot of fatty meats i didn't he didn't tell me that part he didn't say oh p.s that's really important he told me what i needed but i could have used a little more information all right in 2009 i discovered oh there's a name for this they called themselves zero carvers we didn't say carnivore back then i found this group called zero carb and i just found them by searching a google search is it safe to only eat meat because i really hated vegetables and i had kind of on my own by 2009 realized i really just like the meat is that okay and then this group wildly confirmed uh yeah we're here it was a pretty big community even in 2009 and they looked good so i started asking questions they said so oh and i shared a before and after picture by this point i had lost 120 pounds eating almost exclusively meat but with diet soda that was that was my diet and they said wow you look really good how do you feel but i feel good they said how about the food cravings it's amazing that they're gone right what should they be gone cause no i was still having tons of sugar cravings every day and they're like and you only eat meat but you still crave sugar yeah and of course then they said what else are you including in your diet um diet dr pepper ding hello and that's when they gave me the second piece of the puzzle you need fat and if you want to stop craving sugars you got to stop lighting up this limbic system with anything sweet yeah so i had a really hard three days without the diet dr pepper then i was full on board like okay no sweet taste whatsoever no plants and all the fat i want and that is when i really felt good so the first five years was just practice but when people ask when did you start carnivore i do not include those five years even though it was almost exclusively meat yeah um because i didn't feel like this it was a totally different it wasn't really carnivore to me i didn't feel like a carnivore yeah well but you were you were damn close and you were at least keto anyway you know and yeah you know so that sort of so that i mean so what is that you've been how many years would that be total now 17 and a half since i first started and then 12 and a half since i really like oh i get it now i think that i think you i use you know you know you and uh and charles washington as examples uh when when you know uh people talk about how oh no you can't you can't be you know in any state of ketosis for that long if you're on carnival for that long you're gonna really hurt yourself i'm like really you know because um you know it didn't happen kelly hogan no she's fine you know charles washington it's just fine i'm i'm just fine and and um you know and these people that that have problems you know like dr saladino or carnivore aurelius they were having problems after like a year or two you know and they're like you know it's because it wasn't we weren't eating carbs like pretty pretty sure 17 years trump's you know one and a half and you know so obviously you know people like that are doing something different uh than you are and it's not carbs you know because you haven't had cars and so uh yeah i think that's i think that's just a great uh record in and of itself you know and just very good testament uh proof of concept you know yeah thanks so i tell people i can't prove that my my experience doesn't prove it's gonna work for someone else but it does prove that it's possible yeah it's working for at least some people it's not like i'm an anomaly you got dr lisa wiedemann out there she's been doing this longer than i have um ambro hearn oh gosh now i'm naming names i'm gonna get in trouble amanda radke she's right up there with me as far as how long oh we have not mentioned the queen dana spencer shoot oh yeah she was there when i first came to that website she and charles washington they just been preaching it this whole time living at the whole time and they look fantastic oh the andersons yeah joe and charlene anderson i know they're really private but they're still doing their thing i talk to them sometimes and they're they're thriving yeah yeah and then they've you know had had carnivore kids you've had carnivore kids as well you know and um you know and i mean that that right there i mean you can't you can't bring a human life into this world uh healthfully if they don't have everything that they need to survive and thrive you know it just doesn't happen they don't develop and you know we do see a higher rate of miscarriage and birth defects in in vegan and vegetarian uh cohorts you know for a number of reasons i'd say uh but you know not getting enough uh nutrients and also bringing in plant toxins you know you're not you're not doing you know favors to that kid um but you know obviously you know we're not having those problems when people are carnivore and and uh and having kids as well so that's all right there you know people say you know i love it when they say it's just like you know i see you know lane norton um who is quite you know he's quite you know vitriolic and i i really don't uh think that that's a very good way to behave uh when people are trying to bring up different points of view but um you know someone mentioned something was talking on one of his threads and and they were you know a clinical psychotherapist and with like 20 years of experience and talking about this all this research and these publications blah blah blah and i've seen this in my practice and all these people getting these benefits and his only response was f your anecdotes you know you didn't say just f you know and um first of all they weren't anecdotes she was quoting studies and um and uh also you know it's just like okay well it's anecdotal i guess it just never happened then you know i guess that didn't reverse their uh their psychiatric condition you know i guess this person that had you know rheumatoid arthritis and now doesn't and came off all of their medication well that's just anecdotal yeah i guess it just didn't happen then i guess it it's not real it doesn't count then you know i mean anecdotes we are humans my anecdote is a real story of a real life that went from misery at age 25 to feeling fantastic at age 43 that's that's anecdotal but it's also my entire life experience yeah yeah exactly and it's just like i mean i you can show me all the studies that you want but all i really care about is is what effect it has on me you know i just you know i don't care you can have a study that says i'm going to be healthy and happy and vibrant doing x and i'll be horrible and miserable and die of cancer you know doing why but if i feel better on why and everything works better on why like i think that i don't really care what your study says you know especially if it was done on rats or on people who were also consuming processed carbohydrates yeah and yeah or which is valid yeah or just your poorly designed studies you know there's a lot of junk out there and yeah you know this is coming from a doctor the medical literature is mostly garbage it is just mostly garbage it is it is junk science a lot of it not all of it a lot some of it's very very good but a lot of it is junk because it's just published published published published published and so if you want to go anywhere in advance in your in your field or or even as a medical student or even get into medical school people are are publishing and trying to get uh publications and then out of medical school to try to get into different training programs you just have to you have to be on on top of so many public publications that we're just we're just pumping out garbage you know because it's not about it's not about publishing quality research it's just about having publications attached to your cv and it's just nonsense so you get we had these 10 people a tomato soup and these 10 people ate onion soup and there was a six percent you know reduction you know in cancer from the onion soup group and it's like okay well you can publish that but it really doesn't mean anything and that that's that's a lot of this it's a lot of the stuff that we see and so yeah you know you have a study that says anything um but who cares you know it's the quality of the study that matters and and uh and that's and that's the main thing and and at the end of the day you know if you're if you're experiencing it and you're experiencing something different than what the study says you know that that trumps that every time yeah yes no study it matters as much to someone as how they wake up feeling every day yeah exactly you know um so i remember when we spoke last time you mentioned that that you uh when you when you first started this obviously you're feeling better you're having better health but it actually took a while for the weight to start start coming off um can you tell us a bit more about that you said it took like six months and you you were sort of stalled is that right that's correct okay so we've got two real start dates here this is right hang with me first start date was 2004 i lost weight really quickly because i went from low fat sugary standard american diet to now basically carnivores so when people go from eating all the things to eating meat most people lose weight very quickly i mean the general i've worked with enough people for enough years i can say that with with no hesitation most people lose weight when they cut out the carbs and i did too in 2009 when i started like all in carnivore i had really gotten to where i was restricting some calories towards the end i was i told you i was hungry i was eating meat but not enough fat so my body was getting meat but not as much as it really needed and so then the carnivores said okay cut out that diet soda and eat some fatty ribeye and boy did i i finally gave myself permission to just eat and it was taking about three pounds of meat per day to stay full i was hungry i was not even terribly active well i wasn't active at all at that point except i was teaching and that's you know not sedentary but i wasn't exercising and i did slowly gain about 23 pounds over the course of six months and i can tell you man that was a head game i was eating nothing but beef no other meats and drinking nothing but plain water not even seltzer water not coffee nothing no seasonings whatsoever because back in 2009 zero carb meant you don't use seasonings not even salt they were hardcore not even salt it's what most carnivores did yeah it that that part has changed a lot over the years but there are still some of the long time ago carnivores who are still going with no salt whatsoever yeah it's a thing all right i do use salt now by the way but in those days i fell in line with my new tribe and unseasoned beef and water yes i gained weight for about six months and i stuck with it even though every single day i would step on the scale and i was like oh my gosh it's gone up again and i would tell my husband sometimes my clothes are fitting tighter he's like honey i'm not trying to be rude and he's like the least rude guy ever you are eating what three pounds of meat per day yes he said i well in my head i still wasn't sure if this was a problem you know like i this was feeling like a problem i was actually very nervous about it the scale is going up i had a lot of baggage in regard to weight i know 23 pounds to some people might seem like not that it was not muscle i was not lifting weights i literally was gaining some weight for a while and i i do see it happen sometimes especially if someone has been restricting if they come from a whole lot of fasting a lot of calorie restriction if they have been malnourished even if they were eating if it wasn't proper foods when their body gets a hold of real foods sometimes bodies will just hang on to it for a while but again it's not normally your you know obese person eating a standard american diet that gains but it can happen i have i have seen it many times but temp very temporary so at the end of that six months it's not like i suddenly said well now i'm gonna cut back on meat i didn't change anything i just kept right on eating but something inside of me did change and it sounds like some mystical thing but honestly i feel like my body was just actually fed i didn't feel completely ravenous all the time i could eat a pound or two of meat and feel satisfied and i was oh so that's what this feels like i haven't really had this my whole life i feel fed and and the weight did come off and then i immediately got pregnant the reason yeah really at about the um seven month mark eight months uh i got pregnant which was one of the main reasons i started this in the first place i really the reason in 2009 was i i wasn't feeling good i was exhausted i was feeling hungry and i wanted to only eat meat but i wasn't sure if it was exactly right because my period had stopped and i wanted kids and so that's when they're like if you want your hormones right you gotta eat girl and it's gotta have fat on it and that's really that was the point when weight was frustrating and i do still see this with some people not the norm but when it happens i try to encourage them look if your body is hungry for plain meat you're hungry you need it you're healing something there's something going on and i think you should feed it and and i understand it's a scary mental game at that point to watch the scale creep up but i just you know focus on the things that are feeling better if something is feeling good and i was i was feeling really good i thought okay this whole weight thing that that's not fun but i do feel good and the meat was so delicious i just stuck with it i went with it yeah well and it worked and then and then so once once you hit that switch did the weight come off fairly rapidly after that very quickly yes it took about six months to gain it in about six months to lose it no six weeks six weeks six months to gain 23 pounds and about six weeks to lose it and again i did not i didn't change what meats i was eating i didn't have any eating windows i didn't put any new rules i was still doing the same thing but i felt different in my hunger it wasn't like oh my gosh panic eating i had really been like panic eating for six months i was so hungry yeah and then you just naturally wanted less is that right i did and it's not like it was a lot less but i felt i could feel satiety so my guess is i had never at that point heard the phrase leptin resistance or left insensitivity but i really think i did become leptin sensitive over the course of that six months by really feeding myself you know when we ignore our hunger and satiety signals for years on end through crazy yo-yo dieting and then binges your brain stops hearing the leptin that's in your body and i'm sure i had plenty of it because i you know if you've got any body fat you've got some leptin in there but my brain it wasn't registering and then at some point i think it just started to click so that a pound of meat felt nourishing and i felt good and then i could go several hours but the carnivores kept saying if you eat a big meal of fatty meat you should be able to go several hours without food but what if i can't i didn't feel like i could i mean i would be so full and then an hour or so later i would feel hungry again and i thought what's wrong with me and i do see this in my coaching too it happens that sometimes people can't feel full even on fatty meat and if you've never experienced that it's hard to get like really because i find fatty be very satisfying i do too now i do too i can go easily 18 hours and not feel hunger and then you know the next day i'm ravenous but back in those days i feel for them if you have no leptin sensitivity it can take a while of steadily getting proper nutrition meat and then you will start to feel your leptin and can feel satisfied yeah yeah and and you know that's a very good point you know because there are a lot of processes in our body that happen every day that you know if you ignore them long enough you have areas in your brain that are responsible just for shutting down those signals and because you don't need alarm bells going off all the time all the time all the time because it's just it's too distracting um you know think about it like you know if you you really need to pee and you just you need to pee and then you just but you can't you're in the car you're somewhere and it's just not going to happen and eventually that sort of ebbs off well you don't need to pee any less that stretch is still the same on your bladder it's just the signal just says okay well we can't we can't deal with this right now so i'll stop bugging you and and that's what it is um we we have that for thirst and we have that for hunger we have that for a lot of different different processes and you know even pain if you're if you're you know this is why you don't like animals in the wild you know they'll have their leg ripped off or they'll be attacked by something and they'll have you know parts of them hanging off and they're and they're just walking you know they're not just sitting there screaming uh because they're just like i can't deal with this right now i just escaped you know a lion and i need to get the hell out of here or i'm or on lunch and they're probably going to be lunch anyway because you're not going to heal from some of these injuries but but they just do that whereas you know sometimes we will have a minor injury and but we're so fixated on it because we don't we're not running from a wolf you know so we've got we can fixate on it you know you actually do experience that more and uh there's a there's a pain gate theory of of um of injury where if you focus on it you go like oh my god you will actually increase that signal of pain up to your brain and we can actually measure the signal that goes up uh nerves for pain we actually measure pain there's a unit for pain and um and as you can measure these things and when you go like yeah i can't deal with this right now and you just like you know i'm not going to do that you know you have natural endorphins that hit on these receptors your actual opioid receptors that's what like opioids work on these receptors to dull pain and you naturally will do pain and you will get a lower signal of pain up to you so be like yep can't deal with that right now you will actually experience less pain so we have a lot of these these processes in our body and you know it's it's no surprise that you know after a while uh of of ignoring your hunger signals um you know that that you'll become insensitive to them so that that make that makes perfect sense and and uh and that's a perfect uh you know explanation of of what goes on i mean it it fits the the observed uh facts anyway you know yeah and same for people who binged because i was also at times in my life i would be overwhelmed and so binge eating you are obviously eating past the point of where your body says oh you're full nope we're going to power through that if you do that repeatedly enough again you stop getting that signal i had never thought about it like the having to pee in the car though that that's a good analogy yeah yeah um but yeah so um you were talking about you know obviously you you've had um oh sorry you've had uh how many kids now have you had since since going carnivore three three that's wonderful congratulations thank you what are their ages i have an 11 year old daughter a nine-year-old son and a newly six-year-old daughter oh she's just my girl supposed to say birthdays oh very sweet that's good so you know um how are they you know i mean because they they've lived their whole life like this you know did you did you you know start them off on meat did you try giving them you know baby food and formula or what did what did you do when you were raising your kids okay so earlier when you said i've had three carnivore babies i've had three carnival pregnancies they are not completely carnivore now so here's how he started off though my main goal for them was to get them to have a really good taste and appreciation for meat so that was the only food they had when they were first getting their teeth with my first daughter i was a brand new mom and i didn't know about baby lead weeding baby lead weaning so i was pureeing roasts and pouring fat into all these little glass jars and it was such a great way for her to start and it was also exhausting it took so much work just constantly making baby food and then when my second when my second one was born my oldest daughter was only one so i had to i was like oh my gosh here i am with this she couldn't even walk and i've got well when i was pregnant she couldn't even walk and now i'm going to be making baby food and somebody it was a carnivore her name is margo she said why don't you just do baby lead weaning that's what we did i don't know what is that she said as soon as they can pick up food in which you know five to six months they can grab something big and as soon as they can get it to their mouth let them do they not choke they don't even have teeth she's like no just throw a chicken leg or some ribs a strip of steak i was like that's crazy but so of course i turned to i mean it's i trusted her enough to look into it it turns out it's a thing if a baby can get a strip of steak not tiny bits because tiny bits they can throw in and actually choke but if they can get a chicken leg a rib with some meat on it to just gnaw on with gum on they're basically gum in it they might have one or two teeth by six months then you can actually see that they're getting nutrition when you change their diaper you're like yep something is definitely different this is not just a breast milk diaper so i nursed them for the first i blushed a little on that one pretty talk right there okay so i nursed them for the first um until they could pick up some food and i continued actually nursing because at six months they're not getting a lot they're mostly sucking on strips of steak and gumming on some ribs but they loved it and that i think is key so many times the first baby food people go for is like a can of pureed bananas and it's just pure sugar yeah and if you start kids off on fruit fruit fruit fruit and then you say you know what and i have so many mom friends who will say how do your kids eat meat my kids won't even taste that i think it's a texture thing yeah it's because their first several months of life all they had was maybe hopefully breast milk maybe formula which formula one of the primary ingredients in a lot of the brands is corn syrup not good and then the pureed foods come out it's not meat oh except when it is it is not good dr chaffee have you ever tasted baby food meat oh no no oh do not there is no no semblance to me the smell when you open it is like cat food it is disgusting and i'm thinking no wonder babies won't eat meat that's not even what is that it's so gross and i tried them because you know i thought this would be easier i'll give my baby pre-made baby food meat no no i couldn't even get it near my face so that's why i was pureeing for a while and then baby lead weaning they developed taste for meat at their one year birthday instead of letting them taste cake i did let them taste squash or some pureed green beans i they didn't really like it but i didn't care my goal for them was not i am going to make them never taste anything else i wanted to keep out sweet tastes have them love the taste of meat and then let them decide on some things i'm not paying for grains i'm not paying for sugar that that's i'm not doing that but if they want to have some sweet potatoes sometimes i let them have sweet potatoes sometimes yeah that's where we are yeah i made that face there on the squash because i've never hated anything more than i hate squash and like it was just like oh it was just the worst it was so gross and um my i remember when i was uh i don't know maybe like 11 or 12 or something like that we my mom made some like acorn squash my you know my father same same idea you know just very much wanted to keep fat out of the house you know because that was just a big big thing and my dad had read the pritikin book about you know how to you know stave off heart disease and you know it was really most of it was was staying away from processed food and sugar but he also said and stay away from fat and so that's what most people focused on was the fat part of that but in fact it was there were a lot more to it and so we had we had this acorn squash so my mom sort of roasted in the oven and i'm just looking at that i'm like that does not look appealing and you know i always would just i would always eat the meat and and then i would suffer the rest of it if i had to and and this time i just couldn't do it it was so bad and i remember taking a bite of it it was it was just disgusting i was actually revolted by this and um i just i just couldn't do it i had a couple bites i was like no that that's just gross like i won't do it my dad just was not happy with that he was uh he thought that this was being rude to my mom and you know she cooked this you know nice dinner for us and it was being rude not not to eat it no one else ate this crap i don't know why he focused on me maybe i just you know made him made a bit of a fuss and and so the laser was on me but like no one else in my family is they had a couple bites and they're just like oh that's good you know and like but for some reason he focused on me jack you are gonna eat that and you're gonna finish this and i was just like i can't this is awful and that that you know pissed him off more and so he was just out with me and he was just like you know you're going to finish this thing and so i was like you know like it's like sobbing and like eating this stuff and like every bite that i took it was just like it i worked it up to make myself even more revolted by this every bite and so like i had like a tall glass like a 12-ounce glass of milk and i was just like i'll just like drink it down like a pill i'd take a bite and i drink it down and i just drink that and i just like catch my brother i just kept doing this and um i get kept sort of taking bite after bite after bite and like i i just i just must have filled up like a like a pitcher of milk because i remember i just i remember like leaning over for another one i just went and just milk just poured out of my mouth it didn't i didn't feel like i was vomiting like i was like convulsing my stomach or anything like that it i was just full and it just poured out and like it poured out into the into the squash my dad was just like damn it and like just got up like that was the end of that and like you know all my the rest of my siblings and my mom were sort of hanging around the corner just like watching me like oh this is bad and you know my mom came up to me afterwards and she's just like she's like yeah that wasn't really that good was it i was just like no it was terrible i was like you know we used to like that when i was a kid but you know we used to we used to put in the oven and put a lot of brown sugar and melt that on and caramelize and put a bunch of butter i'm like that that would have been better yes yes you know you know like this was just terrible and so yeah i've just i've always hated squash and so it's just like oh none of my three will eat it now and i don't even remember what squash tastes like but after that story i never want to know this is really really bad one time i missed going to the fair because i could not choke down this succotash which is like a tomato and okra mush and my parents are like if you want to go to the fair you'll eat it and i remember crying i literally can't i can't do it so i didn't get to go my kids are so so lucky i have never once ever said you better eat your vegetables in fact i'm i don't care i literally don't care and i'm happier if they don't yeah yeah absolutely yeah and um [Music] uh what was i gonna say yeah like um i had a friend of mine and she she's doing she's raising her kids you know in that same way and um and uh you know she she's only only sort of fed the meat and only had them have meat and that's all they want and she says she's never had a problem feeding them she's never had a problem with them you know being picky with their food they've always been excited to have their food like slapping the table getting excited their eyes going and they get really excited and and people that go over for dinner and they see her daughter when she was you know six months old slapping the table i like that they're like whoa she's getting really excited and she's like yep she she likes her meat and um you know i mean that that says something you know these kids are they're closer to their genetics than than than we are they haven't been you know uh conditioned to to like yeah so um so yeah so now she has two kids uh she's got a girl and a boy they've both just been eating meat they're both you know doing very very very well and they both love to love the meat and like um you know it's it's you know one of those things that you know people talk about all the time is that their kids are such fussy eaters they're such picky eaters they have such a hard time and uh you know they won't eat this often there was a video i just saw some some monster like force-feeding avocado mashed avocado to this infant and and the baby was like gagging going you know and like and she's just like yeah getting out and the video was called avocado one child zero i was like you're a monster you know like and um you know it's just like so even avocado which you know most most adults would say like oh that's a pleasant taste you know the kid is is more sensitive to that and saying he's like well there's something bad in here like really shouldn't be doing this and you know i so i don't think it's a being picky eater i think that they are they're recognizing that this is not food and this is not good for them and that you know maybe you you as the parent should be a little smarter than your infant child you know and and not and not you know poison them you know yes i think there's really two things at play for one thing i think kids are so aware of toxins they haven't been indoctrinated with this idea of kale is healthy yet and they know no it's not it's disgusting so they i do think pick up on that also i heard dr efflin say the other day picky eaters and my i have a lot of friends whose kids are in fact picky eaters and the moms say they eat almost nothing if it's not a chicken nugget or macaroni and cheese they will not eat and they eat almost nothing okay dr iflin said calling processed food addiction which is what she says these kids also have they are addicted to the processed food calling them picky eaters is like calling an alcoholic a picky drinker she's like it's not that they're picky they're literally addicted to a very highly addictive substance and so they won't go back to these to even some kids won't go to even a beautiful delicious ribeye i've seen kids turn it down and i'm like what's happening my kids love love their food they eat like linebackers they're killing me man they eat so much they really do they have huge appetite and they all three love the taste of steak they like it very rare do not give them a brown burger on the inside either they really like their meat medium rare to rare and and so but i thought that was that was a really interesting take on it right alcoholics are not picky drinkers they're addicts yeah so you got to get that junk out of these kids system so they can really taste food for and get nutrition yeah you know well that's what they do with with uh dogs and cats or if they don't if you change food and they don't really like the food you know the thing is like well you know they're gonna get hungry eventually you know just yes you just leave it there and i you know it sounds it sounds a bit harsh but you know you need to do something when you're when your kid is only eating processed garbage and is harming themselves from that it's not a small difference you know it it's it's a very very big difference and you know it can be difficult you know that you know saying is oh well they you know they're really fighting against it and they really don't want it and fine but you know eventually they're going to want to eat and you know like you just you just need to be able to to wait them out when they get older obviously you know they can they can go out and buy their own food or get something but you don't have to let it in your house and you don't have to you don't have to uh you know you know buy it and and uh enable them uh you just be like all right look you want to you want to eat something when you go outside of the house with your own money that's your business but you know in this house this is this is what we you know and uh it'll suck at first and there's gonna be uh some teething issues and obviously everyone's situations at home is very different and sometimes that's just not logistically possible due to you know uh difficulties in in a relationship uh between parent and child but you know by and large you know you you should be able to slowly incrementally change things around and and and bring them around and certainly with younger kids it's um you know you you just control what comes in or out of the house and you know if there's i don't want this you may be like well you know i guess they're not eating today you know that's what we're having i've had many meals that at my house growing up that i did not want you know but it's just like well you know i'm hungry i don't want to eat something you know so i'll make the best out of it you know right yes but the good thing is and i know it's a lot harder if your kid is already very addicted to processed foods but if somebody is because i get a lot of messages saying i'm pregnant um yay how am i going to feed my kids you know the good news is they don't start off on the processed foods the main things i would really look to avoid obviously added sugars and anything with a paragraph if the ingredients include a paragraph and you don't know what they are if you can't legitimately say oh i've seen that product before i've put that in my mouth by the spoonful like why would we do it and most of the ingredients never we don't have a clue what they are in these processed frozen junk foods food dyes i would encourage people especially if you are just getting started with your kids either changing diet or you're just now having kids look into food dyes and how it affects mental issues for kids and adults frankly but i think kids are even more triggered by it dude i had this beautiful little meat based 18 month old julia that's my oldest she was a doc i mean she's just darling still is but at 18 months you've never seen more of a little cherub okay and i took her to the doctor because i can't even remember now but i feel like she'd either gotten an ear infection or a chest cold or something again this was first time mom and she's like the doctor said we have to put on antibiotics oh okay okay and i go and i pick it up and the medicine is pink because that's what they do to children's medicine no one has yet explained except that it's more appealing to children and that drives me crazy but i give the first dose to her within an hour my darling baby girl is swinging punches screaming in the floor tantruming i called her the pediatrician dr shops i said i don't know what's happening right now but i feel like she's reacting to this antibiotic she's like yes honey it has red dye in it and it's very common for kids to have reactions why are we giving them red dye then this was my first experience with hearing like then why did you give that to my child you monster yeah why are we doing this filming babies right so i said can we get it not red there are literally some antibiotics that they cannot get for children at least at walgreens that's where i've normally gone i've tried cvs they'll say it does not come in anything other than pink so i had it put on her medical record allergic to red dye that one thank goodness the doctor was really good she called in a whole new different antibiotic in clear or white or something but yes and i have taught public school i'm not now currently teaching for 20 years and they kick off public school morning breakfast with colorful brightly colored cereal bars filled with sugar you know like tricks fruity pebbles that are glued together with sugar goo hand them this brightly colored mask and then say go have a good day their their brains are on fire and it's obvious from watching some of these kids they're they're not like they're trying to be bad they literally can't control their emotions they they're struggling mentally and it killed me i had breakfast duty for like a decade so here i was just watching there's no eggs there's no meat it's just colorful sugar bars filled with dye breaks my heart why do we do this to our babies yeah just give them some meat yeah so what do you do for uh did you send school lunches with your kids or how do they navigate school every day they've never bought a school lunch i mean there's there's nothing there for them every once in a while they might serve a burger patty which has even who knows what in it with bread and french fries it's just garbage i'm sorry if there are children starving and i know they give out free food for kids great i'm glad they're not starving to death but i just wish it was real food and not food-like substances so every day they pack their food they'll take either egg muffins they've taken hard-boiled eggs is it okay to go into what i spend for lunches okay deli meats roll like meat and cheese roll ups they do eat dairy they do seem to handle dairy fine i have to limit dairy because of like acne uh i've hold up i wrote down a few things i send um strips of steak like fajita meats nice hot dogs i try to buy you know the cleaner hot dogs burger patties we call them meat cookies here this literally just burger patties pork rinds paleo valley beef sticks when i'm feeling really generous i'll sometimes send them some carnivore crisps but who you know carnivore bars they barely ever get to touch my carnivore bars because number one i love them too much and i can't afford to do that for school lunches but epic meat bars those are from target um they are not as good as carnival bars but they they'll do the trick for a kid's school lunch it's really not bad a ton of pepper if i remember correctly they're pretty seasoned so for a lot of carnivores it's too much it's a little much for me but for my kids they like seasoning and two out of three of my kids love spice okay so so they're fine with some epic meat bars but those are the and and that do allow them to have very limited like for a dessert dessert a small amount of fresh fruit a few slices of apple something like that so that's what their lunch looks like most days cool yeah and you you don't get any pushback from the teachers of the schools or anything oh no they they don't care they have so much more to worry about and the only pushback i ever got no i doubt anyone now their ages has a clue what's in their lunchbox um in daycare i did have an encounter which i don't think i've ever talked about on air but this lady was really nasty to me and and i was really taken aback and didn't know what the deal was like my baby was just a baby an infant and i had never had anything but then she started sending notes home i would send my little jars of pureed meats remember that i spent so much time working on and she would put little notes on the on the they would send a report card home every day like telling what your kid did and it would say like just meet question mark you're like oh no she didn't so when they were babies exclamation point he said that that's right so i did actually end up um we ended up switching daycares not just because of the question on there but there was there was definitely a vibe i couldn't and i'm like i can't keep leaving my baby here with somebody who feels like there's no relationship no trust but ever since then i've never had anybody get weird about their food i think as they get older i mean literally a fifth grade teacher they're just happy everyone is alive and not killing each other they don't care what julia eats yeah well that's good to hear it's um it's quite intrusive here in australia like they will go through your lunches and yeah and they will and if there's too much meat they'll take it away and they'll send them home and say like no no you can't you have to have more fruits and vegetables they have to have a certain number of fruits and vegetables there are some schools that are pure vegan you you cannot send meat in with your kid you know they're they're very very so i've noticed about australia they they they're quite you know pedantic in the sense that they they'll really trust the guidelines like so if they say that's bad for you if that causes heart disease they're like right get that the hell away from me and and so they do and so you know the market here is such that just things are very low fat to to the extent that the cattle have been bred to be more lean because that is just the market and i've spoken to butchers and i'm looking i was like i want your fattest cut i want you know try to get your fatty assist and that and they're like that is so refreshing because people this uh she was telling me that a lady came in and bought a rib eye loin rib eye mind you went home and cut out all the pieces of fat brought it back it was like you owe me three pounds of meat oh my gosh it was like it was just full of fat i was like yeah don't buy ribeye then idiot you know and how the animal comes it comes on animals well but you know the best part it's it's and it's ribeye you don't you don't want it get sirloin get rump get something that's lean it they exist and uh you know you bought you got the fattiest cut and and then you got upset that there was fat in it really so yeah i mean but you know so the whole whole plant pushing all vegetables and you know uh vegan is just the best way to go they've really bought into this and because you know it is it is quite intrusive in in some ways you know i have noticed that since i've gotten here the government's is it's a bit more of a nanny state and you know okay you have people sort of watching you a little more here uh there's traffic cameras everywhere i have never driven the speed limit as much in my life as i have here yeah i got well it cost me about two grand in tickets until i finally was just like right i'm just putting on cruise control whatever the hell that limit that sign says and um you know because it's just you just always there and there's there's always just someone checking over your shoulder pretty much all the time and so yeah they get they get very involved in uh the rearing of children and school lunches is one of them you know there's there's a campaign out right now saying oh you shouldn't shouldn't send ham shouldn't make ham sandwiches shouldn't use lunch meat well because they have nitrates and they have nitrites and it's just like um that's garbage you know and so you know there's way more you know uh in in celery than there are in in ham and that's why they use this naturally cured they'll use celery powder yeah that's because it has nitrates in there nitrates you know and so you know and then and then your saliva not many people know this but your saliva produces more nitrates it's like thousands of times the amount of nitrates just in your saliva right now that you are swallowing right now than in in a serving of processed meat i did not know that yeah so you know it's a complete farce and you know the studies you know like we said you know uh you know um a lot of a lot of the the research and the studies that have come out in medicine are junk and and you look back at the origins of these they're junk you know they looked at animal models and they gave them like something like 20 or 30 000 times the amount of nitrates and nitrites that you would ever see and they're like oh and there's there's a small increase correlation in in in cancer rates it's like yep okay and you know like how is that useful information you know meat no yes you're just not getting you know this in in those doses you're just not you know it was perfectly displayed in game changes they tried to use this as a way of saying like oh my god processed meat's so bad and that's the way they pitched it you know because they're the con artists um and uh oh sorry and um what the hell god that was such a piece i was so pissed i might go through my no i wrote copious notes because someone had me i was like oh you should you should watch this oh it really might change your mind i'm like yeah i don't know and i watched it i was just furious the whole time and i was like it took me four hours to go through an hour of this movie because i kept stopping it and writing angry notes about how garbage what they just said was with references and links to studies and everything like that like this is [ __ ] and here's why and here's a link and like and so i had this whole thing and i sent it to him i'm like you read this you uh you know you you made me watch that now you have to you know read my my angry responses i should probably do an episode about that just going through that but do it yeah um but you know right at the beginning you know you know that they're they're um being intentionally misleading because they said you know like oh yeah like processed meats they're like you know there's they're a class one carcinogen just like cigarettes and plutonium okay and then they and then actually and they know they're full of it because you you you look over and there's a number next to that right and that's you know the relative risk of cancer right for each one and so lunch meat was like you know six right okay cigarettes were 314 000 oh my gosh okay not the same thing plutonium 8.6 million right yeah just like plutonium no ham sandwich just like you know walking through you know the core of a nuclear reactor just the same and um yeah and so it's just and so they have this this uh visual because visuals are very powerful of you know kids sitting down to breakfast like oh yeah and the mom having like this you know ash tray with a bunch of like dirty cigarette butts and like pouring it on their plate you know it's just like yeah you're giving them giving them processed meat just like feeding your kids cigarettes in the morning i was like uh no um you know one cigarette is like feeding your kid 30 000 slices of lunch meat maybe in animal models maybe you know but but smoking you just had correlative studies as well we have no actually no proof of causation we just have very strong correlation because it was like you know people who smoked are 20 times more likely to get cancer right so that's a big that's a big increase but you know these things with the with the nitrates in animal models it was not close to 20 times the amount got got cancer at 30 000 times the the nitrates that you're going to get in a serving of lunch meat so it's complete garbage and you know and they knew it was garbage because they showed the numbers they knew the numbers they knew that that you know uh had had nothing to do with anything and then they said wow this is a class one carcinogen and you know unprocessed meat well that's like a class two carcinogens so i mean like oh it's okay so what's you know what's its number one you know like so you know it yeah it's it's absolutely nonsense yeah you make thousands of times more nitrates in your saliva than you do uh than you get from lunch meat and they're they're trying to vilify it so they have to have this campaign out against ham right now in australia oh my god oh you make a ham sandwich for your child you're gonna kill him you're gonna kill him love you know it's just like yeah you know it's it's just madness they're just so on the tear to to vilify me and um and i just think it's it's it's just awful because you are malnourishing children and you're giving them very very disordered eating habits and they're just they're just going to be very unhealthy adults and they're not going to develop to their genetic potential they're not going to be as smart they're not going to be as athletic they're not going to be as healthy and this is going to last the rest of their life because once that's done it's set in stone and you can you can obviously polish up what you have developed into but you're you're not going to develop again you're not going to your brain won't grow bigger it might get more effect effective and efficient and powerful that can do that but it's never going to get bigger and all those those early synapses and development of your brain it will never do that again and so it they cannot be done again and you know i think that's just that's just an absolute crime against humanity to keep pushing this when they when they either know that it's crap or know that it's based on very flimsy evidence yes and if people haven't been around school-aged children particularly so i taught at a title one school which is all about poverty levels but what title one equates to most in my book is they get free school breakfast and free school lunch which sounds very nice go to a title 1 school and hang out for a while and you will see what very addicted brain inflamed children look like and it's not because of their poverty level necessarily some things like trauma may be a part of i'm saying they're being fed free garbage in large amounts on a daily basis and it's being blamed on the fact that they're poor kids i personally think it's because they are getting these dyes and sugars and processed foods in much higher amounts than other schools who have to pay for it and you know it's probably just as easy to send a ham sandwich which you know it's pretty great if you leave off the bread yeah yeah ham is awesome ham it's awesome i um i went on a road trip and i was just sort of looking for you know meat that i could i could eat i had a cooler with ice and and so i i would bring meat and you know cook it over like an open fire like i had i cut up a bunch of beef cubes um from like rib eyes and you know salted them all and and just sort of left them in there to sort of marinate in the salt and they were great and just eating them raw was great but you know i'd put them on like a you know instead of like a marshmallow on a stick like i just had chunks of meat on a stick and i would just like just you know flame grill them and they were just amazing and that's so that's what i was eating on this camping trip i was going sort of all up and down um sort of the northern coast of western australia i did a big road trip up there for a couple weeks and it was it was awesome and then i was you know going into town um to sort of stock up and i'm sort of thinking like oh do you want to keep doing this and i was like well what's what's something i can just sort of have around and just you know it's going to be good i'm like a ham you know that'd be good i just got a whole ham and uh i think i got two and uh so i just said i just had this thing and i have a picture on my instagram you just like just biting into this thing this massive you know dinosaur leg and um yeah and that's what i just ate just just cutting off big chunks of ham and like that that's what i ate it was great and no problem with that no me neither yeah it's delicious um obviously most most people don't do this with their kids um do you find that there's there's an issue in social settings with with your kids and with other kids or with other parents or is everyone pretty much you know understanding of what you want to do and how you want to raise your kids i think the hardest thing is when we go to birthday parties and the only thing out is a cake a big bowl of doritos and you know there's just nothing there that i feel comfortable with i'm eating so i normally i make this cake it's a carnivore cake called an oopsie cake it's a take off on a very old internet recipe that i found but it's cream cheese and eggs heavy cream as the icing that's it if you want to add a little vanilla flavoring i usually do for the kids no sugar no grains that's it so i will normally take a tupperware container i always for myself i often carry what i call purse bacon but if we're going to a party i've got purse cake for the kids and so i'll say go get your plates up there they'll walk up there get their normal birthday plates i put cake on it that takes all of what five seconds to put a piece of cake they sit there eating their cake with everybody else honestly at a party for kids it's normally chaotic and there's kids who don't eat their cake anyway just cause you know cake icing is very strong and a lot of kids don't like it it's it has not been an issue i'd say that's probably the hardest part is just because now i have to make a cake to go to a birthday party and that's sort of annoying but it's it's not like parents go oh my gosh did you just pull cake out of your purse no one has ever come in if they noticed i just met i'm trying to make new friends up here in my new surroundings and i met a lady this past week and she says i don't do any sugar or greens for my children oh my gosh me too i think there are more people who are coming around to the idea that dies and you know food products with paragraphs of ingredients you know trying to limit those things for their kids i don't find that it's all that hard to find somebody who's at least open to the idea yeah um yeah and and that's i mean i don't have kids but you know i would i would imagine that and i i would expect that you know raising them in a certain way and raising them to understand you know why you're doing something and then just having them have a taste for it they're going to pretty much you know police themselves it's not they're going to want to sort of eat a certain way because that's what they enjoy and that's what makes them feel good and because you you've spoken to them and told them why you're doing this and why it's better they're going to they're going to believe you your kids are hardwired to to emulate their parents and to and to learn from their parents especially early on um because you know all mammals are like that you know this is like the baby cheaters are just studying their mom on how to hunt and know what to do because their parents have by definition um you know won the game of life and uh has have procreated and so they've they've been able to do something uh and appropriate successively and so you know obviously we know that that they did it right um so your mammal kids are just going to be studying their parents and so if you if you you teach them and and uh and tell them all these sorts of things it's going to be really hardwired in there which is also why you know it really sucks when when people are pushing vegetables and giving them processed food because it's going to be really ingrained in there and it's going to be a lot harder uh to break that you know um but yeah and i think that i think at the end of the day people parents don't really actually care you know what you want to do i mean there's always going to be you know nosy neighbor that's just like oh my god she does what you know but like who cares you know and um i've always found that like the less i talk about what i do the less i i talk about it unless people notice it and it just it just happens and you know when i first did this in early 20s i never i never thought about it i wasn't like doing something different i was like yeah i don't eat plants plants are trying to kill you just don't touch them and i would just eat the meat and just do whatever no one ever said a thing ever said a thing just never and and that's because i just never thought about i was never self-conscious about it because i just i just didn't even think of it as being something different when you do think it's something different you start thinking like oh people are going to notice what are they going to think then people just look at you like what's different over here and um and i think that once you just sort of just stopped caring everybody else stops caring too yeah i've had time periods where i don't say that much about it and nobody seems to care i also right now i'm looking out my window at my minivan which in massive letters across the back the entire back glass of my minivan says eat the meat save the humans yeah yeah so then there's me now but i even find out like there's a neighbor across the street we just move in here and here i've got this van eat the meat save the humans and the guy said he's an older guy and he's like so uh what's that about and i told him a little bit he said you know what my knees been killing me and the doctor said i need to lose 50 pounds so i don't know maybe i'll try that okay yeah you know people sometimes are just curious so i try to also in my own mindset expect that people may have questions and that's okay as long as nobody's being rude or degrading and i really other than like on tick tock haven't experienced that myself yeah yeah think talk is rude and degrading and so but in real life most people are just genuinely curious yeah i think so and and also they just they actually want to know because you know people do care about their health and they and they care about what's right you know people are so dismissive you know they say it's like oh well you know people people need to be led along by the nose because they just don't know what's good for them they just don't care and they just you know they don't they don't maybe don't have the ability to it's um it's very condescending and it's absolutely not true you know people work very hard uh most of the time to to do what's right you know and then and they're trying to do what's right and they're trying to do what's right for themselves they're trying to do what's right for their children they're trying to do the best thing that they can uh for their kids and their health and it's just that they've been told the wrong thing and they've been told it over and over and over again uh but people do care and and so i find the same thing people you know get genuinely curious and they see that i you know have good results with it with my health and and and fitness and so and they just could be like hmm okay well you know maybe there's something too it's like i was um i was working with uh in orthopedics um on a rotation uh some years back and um i had some some friends who were with the peters and they were like oh you know this person like oh yeah yes we were just you know talking you know making because we had mutual friends and and so we were operating together uh for a number of weeks and um you know they all started becoming much more interested in my my diet and my carnivore diet and they started they all started doing it themselves and they all started getting really interested so i had this this whole like group of uh orthopedic surgeons that were all in this practice they were just like you know just just wanted to like know more and and and and talk about and they were all trying it and um and i was speaking to uh a buddy of mine who was our mutual friend and he was saying that like oh yeah you know they were talking about it you know they you know um they were really interested in in the carnivore thing and uh and and they said that they're like yeah he talks about you know just just eating meat and you're just kind of thinking like you know is that really right but then you know we're getting changed into scrubs and he takes his shirt off you're like okay yeah all right yeah maybe there's something to this you know and they were like you were like yeah he was like that guy's jacked and uh my buddy was just like yeah well you know because you know we played rugby together in in uh medical school and um and he was just like he's like yeah chafee's always been jacked but now he's really jacked and um and so he's like yeah maybe there's something to that he's like yeah maybe maybe there is and um you know and so you know people see this and they see people like yourself um you have have excellent results and they see you raising your kids and they're very healthy and happy um and exactly they're just gonna be curious and that's why i think this is this is slowly but surely growing i mean i'm certainly when you first started doing this in in uh you know 2007-89 whatever um obviously there just you know weren't as many other people in that group but there weren't as many groups and and yeah yeah and uh i think it's it's grown you know just in the last sort of five years that i've been paying attention i think it's grown significantly what you know have you noticed the same thing dude we were doing our thing the group was slowly growing and we had all these journals and then we moved over to facebook all was well people trickling in at a nice pace and then dr sean baker boom that was when it was like and they stopped said we had still been saying zero carb we do zero carb zero carb and he's like carnivore yeah yeah yeah explosion that it was it was not just noticeable it was like boom all of a sudden so many carnivores coming in it did make a big difference yeah i think i think you know getting the exposure that he had on joe rogan especially yeah you know joe rogan has has such such great reach and um you know and then just having you know someone like like dr baker on there who's a very smart articulate man and he he really really does make an effort to just go through the data and the research and so the guy you know is you know has his encyclopedic sort of memory he's just just banging off stats and statistics and and uh you know research and analysis you know that that i think did a very very good job uh in in promoting that and then you had you know 120 million downloads a month that joe rogan gets you know you're going to start getting some traction which is which is really really good uh good to see yeah i have a very quick little brag story right here but it's sort of funny i was in my basement at my old house and a friend of mine named rachel from school she sent me a text and said oh my gosh oh my gosh my husband was listening to joe rogan and they just said your name oh well yeah and i was like i'm not sure i didn't know who joe rogan was so in that moment i i really didn't uh that's been a while since sean dr baker went on that episode but then i went back and listened was like oh my gosh what did they say quote it was dr bakery said then you got kelly hogan she was a really really big woman and that was my uh-huh okay no where does it go from there no it was good hey so you're about to run out of time you want to join us real quickly and then we can wrap up rejoin this room okay yeah you do that i'll go over to instagram and click it again okay so my friend rachel texted and said they just said your name on joe rogan and i did not know who that was and when i did find out and i listened and dr baker was calling me a really big woman i'm like i'm not sure how i feel about this but then it turned out that was like the podcast that was the one that was the big one man where everybody started showing up and i ended up being like that's right i was on the joe rogan show i mean i wasn't there but they said it so now i'm really proud of that that i even got to be like mentioned by those two because that was an amazing episode yeah no it really was you know that was that was sort of my uh you know revitalization into into this as well and and what really helped me see you know what the hell i'd been doing 20 years earlier you know because i was i was only eating meat you know but i was doing it because i wasn't eating plants because i knew plants were trying to kill me and well insofar as we were i was trying to kill them by eating them you know they were just like i'll get you back buddy and um and so i just stopped doing that and then but then i slipped off because i didn't i didn't really know how significant it was what i was doing i didn't know how big of a deal a deal it was and then you know watching dr baker it was just like you know i was looking at that and i was listening to things he was saying i was just like crap like this this guy's more right than he knows because like there was a lot of things that i had had learned with with you know the plants and their toxins um you know cholesterol actually not being a cause of heart disease um fructose being you know abhorrent and uh you know and and many other things i was just like you know this this is this is bang on and so you know that's when i really started digging into the research myself and that you know i contacted dr baker a couple months after that uh when i was pretty satisfied you know that i had a handle on the on the literature and just sort of like hey you know i'm this is who i am this is my background and you know we both came from a you know a professional rugby background which is really cool we were both doctors and you know it was interesting and we both sort of came and came at this from different angles and i was like hey you know if you want to like talk sometime and you know just compare notes and whatever he's just like yeah you know do you want to do that on my podcast like sure yeah it sounds good and um yeah and so that was that was a lot of fun and uh and in fact i'll be uh having him on on my show uh coming up too which is really cool sort of come around full circle you know yeah and um yeah it is and uh but yeah i think i'm i'm such a big fan of dr baker i just like i like him personally i just think he's a cool ass dude and um and i know i've always gotten along with orthopedic surgeons more than anyone you know and professionally well you know i get along with everyone at work and i you know i really enjoy what i do and obviously whatever team i'm on you know i i generally have an affinity with them because you know they're my teammates and i've always been a team sport person and a team player and but you know a lot of orthopedic surgeons you have a sports background you know a lot of them do a lot of athletes who then go into medicine you know a lot of them just gravitate to orthopedics but some of them that's their inspiration because they have an orthopedic surgeon that helped them through an injury and they're like yeah this is really cool you know i like that and you know so you know i like orthopedics but like i love neurosurgery and but it's always a blast operating with orthopedic guys because it's just cool it's like it's like a locker room you know at the rugby team you're just just talking and shooting the [ __ ] and just having fun and it's you know it is a lot of fun and um you know and uh and obviously you know dr baker is just you know just a nice guy and he's he's very very well versed in this and he works very hard to uh to to get more so and so i think that that he's just he's done a great job uh for this movement and for and getting people their health back and so i'm just yeah i think that um you know what he's doing like with rivera health as well is is very interesting too because i i really think that you know the the the entire paradigm of medicine really does need to shift and instead of going to disease management really go into prevention and uh and and so that that's i'm totally on board with that and you know full disclosure i was so on board that i invested in in the company as well so i'm not i'm not just trying to pitch a commercial for my investment but you know i really do believe in it and that's why i did invest because i think that that's exactly what we need to do with health care and that people like myself and dr baker we need to put our money where our mouth is and just be like i think this is the right thing to do and so i'm going to try to do it and so that's what i did but you mentioned you mentioned at the beginning that you were doing classes on uh getting rid of of processed food addiction um which i think is is very important you know like we're talking about with you know with kids you know getting you know eating bananas and eating you know processed garbage and having you know having their brains on fire you know this is something that can be very difficult uh especially when you know maybe maybe you know a parent or an adult is able to you know have a come to jesus moment and go like i need to get my life straight uh but oftentimes it's very very difficult as well but even even for kids and they're trying to get their kids healthy as well and their kids absolutely don't want to do that because they're very addicted they're the picky eaters that are uh addicted to this food um what are what are some of the things uh that you guys are learning what are you doing and yeah just just tell us more about that that's very interesting thanks okay so if anybody has listened to you and i talked for this long and they're already totally carnivore they may not need to know this unless they're trying to help somebody in their family or friends that are you know in trouble however i have learned in my coaching that is not just as simple as saying you know what you should just stop eating processed foods and people don't say okay no more than going to aaa and saying you know what y'all's problem is you should stop having alcohol oh okay it just doesn't work that way so in these classes um and i am really new to this i'm fascinated by the addiction side of it so i did take down some notes i would say first of all just people need to be really honest with themselves about what the problem is if there are online quizzes dr effluent has a quiz about whether how to determine that it's actually an addiction and there are many factors that i checked off for myself how i used to be all of them and one of the biggest ones to me is you understand that it is affecting you mentally and or phys physically in negative ways but you still can't step away from it okay now we're dealing with an addiction that's just one of the pretty big clues i'm learning the history of processed foods and how they're connected with the big tobacco companies that took over and really purposefully tried to make these substances as addictive as possible i think people need to know that learn the science behind addiction and the reasons that some foods are almost impossible for anybody to moderate in the same way that you wouldn't expect people to be moderate smokers right that's not what they were designed to be and people need to understand that in order to release some of this self-blame and self-shame we need to give our mirror neurons in our brains our mirror neurons want to mirror what is around us and if all we are surrounded with are pharmaceutical company commercials and fast food commercials and unhealthy people that's what our brains emulate we are tribal people and so we need to give our brain something healthy to mirror so whether it's joining a carnivore group going on carnivore instagram accounts watching carnivore youtube videos like this have some interactions with the people who are what you want to become remove the foods that trigger the obsessive eating the binging the health problems and cravings get it out of the house and out of your life stay full and satisfied on nutrient-dense foods like animal products if you are very full it's gonna be so much easier to resist this garbage food especially if it's not in your house prepare yourself for success that's part of that just get out the bad stuff stock up on meat then here's a piece that i think is missing a lot that i'm trying to work with with my group members a lot um filling up your brain and your life with other coping techniques because people use food their whole lives sugar and processed foods to cope so whether it's controlled breathing exercises some visualization meditation taking walks affirmations hobbies prayer talking to a friend there are so many ways to get the what we're getting from these processed foods is hits of dopamine and oxytocin and endorphins and serotonin and it makes us feel like yeah so when you're having a bad day and we start downing ice cream suddenly you feel better because you get that lizard brain as dr effluent calls it which is like our primal hit of all this stuff that makes us go yeah i need more of that i need more ah i feel better and so that work stress has suddenly gone and it works for like a little bit until you know then you realize okay work is still there so there are other ways to get those happy endorphins like laughter touch exercise dance cold showers acupuncture there's so many ways to get those hits that don't involve processed foods um eating while we're in a really calm state calming our brain down and being mindful of this is a meal i'm not grazing all day i'm going to sit down to a meal of nutrient dense foods and turn off the phone and just eat can be a really good way for people to calm their brains and just focus um keeping our limbic system calm from just totally abstaining from the trigger foods if you have somebody has dealt with a lot of trauma sometimes they are eating processed foods to help cope with that and so there's a lady named byron katie a therapist and author she does something called the work either getting a therapist or working through some of these past issues without the food it can be very hard um i work with 150 people per week and one of the most common things they say is i don't know how to deal with sadness loneliness stress and grief without doing it in the way i've done it my whole life and that is going to processed foods and sugar and carbs in the freezer or the fridge people don't know so they're you know you have to literally learn how to handle that um continually remind yourself why why are you doing this what are we trying to avoid is it my my grandmothers all had dementia and alzheimer's i don't want that i had boils i was obese so every day it's a choice of choosing these foods that did that to me or the life i really want and food that also tastes amazing and so strongly associating all of the pains that we've had in the past associating those boils with those foods associating the cravings i used to have with the diet soda uh so you take home dr flind always says like take the group member or the client or whoever it is take them to that pain and have them reflect on what exactly it was that caused it and it takes the comfort out of those comfort foods and so then we have to comfort ourselves in other ways and then just learn to fill your life with other hobbies and things that aren't um and again if somebody is totally carnivore and you're free from this and maybe this was never even your addiction it may sound crazy but for so many people our whole lives as children was just about comforting ourselves with these foods and it's like ripping away somebody's security blanket and so as a coach it's really important for me to not just say okay eat meat very important step but then okay how does our your whole life may change when you break an addiction to something and so learning other ways to replace that um i have seen be really useful to people just having a tribe also have somebody in your corner who's doing the same thing and pulling for you so that's what i'm learning about is just the addiction side and i'm really excited about it obviously because you and i i think somebody it just took us like oh so i feel better on meat and my doctor said eat meat so that's what we'll do and that here we are um but also i'm not um an alcoholic so if somebody were to say you know alcohol is bad okay no big deal it's easy for some people to drop some things this is a really hard addiction for some people to break and i want this what you and i feel i want it so badly for other people that i just want to delve in and get to the heart of how how can they get off of this it's killing them literally killing them and like you said earlier humans we do not want to be in pain we don't want to die and we don't want to hurt our children that's the literal opposite of what every human wants so just giving them the tools the knowledge first and then the tools on how to do that that's that's where my head is these days awesome and um well you know and i think that's that's you know uh so important to be able to address that because you know a lot of people you really do want to get healthy but they they're just addictive i i and they just stuck on these things artificial sweeteners are are an absolute beast to get off you know i i talk to a lot of people and you know they come into it thinking well artificial sweeteners there's no carbs no it's not actually food it's just it's just a sweet taste and so it can't be that bad but my god is it ever and and you know i've had a couple people that i've been you know talking to and just trying to help out um you know uh just just because and like you know they were saying that getting rid of the artificial sweeteners has been the hardest part and they haven't been able to they're just sort of yo-yoing just with the the uh artificial sweeteners um you know one gentleman i've been trying to help out he you know has has basically gone you know straight carnivore pretty early on he you know really jumped into it you know head first but you know he was still having some energy drinks and some artificial sweetener you know sweetened drinks or or or supplements and and he was saying he's just you just can't he can't kick it i think he'd say you know he's he that he's gone you know full corner that got rid of the artificial sweeteners you know he just said that he got rid of it now he's been you know 24 hours artificial sweetener free i think it's probably you know i don't know the fourth or fifth time he said that and i was like wait you're still eating that crap and i was just like i thought you stopped like months ago but you know it's very hard you know and you know so being able to address this with with with those techniques i think is is really important um you you work obviously with clients as well yeah i think you mentioned um to jimmy off air that you work with some 150 clients a week is that right yes that's right so it's a month-long coaching many of people do sign up you know stay in for more than a month just because a lot of them even once they're off of these products it's just you know a fun community support place to come each week but there are five small groups it's not 150 in one i think um the relationship piece is really important trusting the person who you are mirroring you're sorry mirror neurons work best when it's when you feel loved and supported and and it makes you want like you're saying with the the mammals and their parents right if it's a loving and supportive parent and it's you know so much easier to emulate what they're doing if it's healthy yeah and and is this over over do you guys do like zoom meetings and talk or do you have like uh like text groups or how do you how do you do your coaching so we do have um private it's 30 people in each group so they only see their other 29 people in the group plus me and so we do zooms each week and then also there's a private facebook group where they post meals or questions or they come in and say oh my gosh today is hard it's day four without diet soda talk to me and that you know people jump in there are some people who are really experienced like years in on carnivore and it's so good to have those people around because again you're emulating what is working for someone else versus having a whole group of just beginners um i did start off that way i was like and this is our beginner class it's like oh my gosh they're all struggling and you're just looking around other people struggling and so then it's like you know the drama festers sort of whereas somebody steps in and says yep that was me a month ago i remember and by day five without that diet soda it will start to release and you're gonna feel better you know that calming voice of i've been there that empathy it really does matter for people yeah and so is this a carnival group for each group of 30 or is that for for everyone who's done your class as well so each group of 30 has their own that's their cohort they meet via zoom only those 30 people and they can only those people see that facebook group oh wow okay yes and then i have five of those groups awesome yeah well that's really fun and and you know what sort of results are are you getting from people what what what are you seeing it's good man it's so good because i feel like it takes what what i've been saying on facebook for so long like you know if you can just quit eating sugar and start eating meat things that we say all the time but it's just it is enough for plenty of people go over to facebook carnivore groups it is enough for a lot of people however you also will see people there who try and fail and try and try and it's just a really hard addiction and they just need a little something else and so learning all of these techniques and and having that support it it really can make a difference yeah no i'm sure i'm sure you can and you know a lot of people uh have expressed exactly that to me that you know are there are there other people around me you know because you know it's it's hard to just be the only one doing this and having everyone look at you like you're a crazy person you're gonna you're gonna kill yourself with this diet and and so that's exactly what i recommend to people is you know try to get involved with an online community uh joining these facebook groups and then you can you know you can you can talk to other people and you can get support and you can have that that sense of community because you know like like you said you know we are uh you know tribal creatures we're pack animals if we we need our troop we need our tribe and you know it's very lonely out there when it's uh when it's just you against the world there's some people that can do it i've i've had to do that at uh at different times in my life and you know i travel around europe when you know most people in europe love to talk trash about americans and i do not like people talking trash about americans and and i you know so i would defend it it was not like i'd be getting fist fights or anything but you know a lot of people will travel to europe and and from america and just and just just take everything every slur that comes their way about america about how horrible and racist and this and it's just like it's like no that's that's really not what it's like and but but people just oh yeah no it's really bad oh gosh because they just want to have a nice time they don't want it they just want to get along they're there for two weeks so they're there for uh a a study abroad program they just they just want to have a nice time and so they'll just go along with that and i've just never been that person i've never i've never i've never i never go along to get along and and so people say oh yeah americans are ignorant americans it's like oh really are we okay why go and they'd be like you know they'd be very taken aback but i would debate people daily you know about liking because they'd have something to say about americans and i'd say like all right put it up what are you basing that on you know and um you know so i've had to be that sort of you know lone wolf sort of behind enemy lines for most of my adult life but that's not that's not really a comfortable position for most people to be in and so it's you know you need that sense of community and obviously i really like i prefer that as well that's why i've always loved rugby because it is such a family community uh sort of sport you know people on your team you you train together you play together you party together you go out together you travel together you know it really becomes uh you know you know they become family to you and um you know so that's something that i enjoy just as much more than than not but um uh it's when you're doing something like this it can it can definitely help so i i think that's great that you you're growing those communities and getting people and i'm sure that you know after these groups they probably stay you know quite close and you know and help each other along the way as well you know yes yeah yeah like i said some of them we go to meetups this coming july i'm going to i've heard that you could be there new jersey are you thinking about new jersey care i think karen miles said she talked to you or maybe she just invited you dr lisa wiedemann is hosting the northeast meetup in new jersey this july i went last year and this year a ton of my like online group members are coming and last year i remember just the idea of you know you've spent so much time with them online face to face like this you feel like you know a person because you do know a person and then you get to really hug their necks and sit down and eat a steak together it's it's fantastic i'm so pumped for july when in july is that i think it's july 17th but dr lisa wiedemann would be the person she is carnivore doctor on instagram yeah then she has she's the one selling tickets for it right now last year was the best meetup i've ever been to it was big the food was fabulous it was great awesome i'll have to check i i will be back in the states uh in early july for ketocon in in austin yeah i think it's the very next weekend okay oh um let's see so it may be too close well oh it's july 16th the following saturday but whoever wants to come they should look it up it is a great time in fact i really did want to go to ketocon but they had already scheduled this for the next weekend and i couldn't do you know kids i wasn't going to do two back to back but uh i'm going to new jersey yeah awesome um well i would love to go i think that i will probably have to be flying back that weekend so i may not be able to make it um not if it's on the saturday well if i can i will i'd love to you know i absolutely would love to go i would love to go to those sorts of things because like like you say you know it's just really nice to meet people in person and you and you do you know get to know people uh through interactions like this and and online and then talking to people and but then actually just meeting them in person yeah it's just it's very nice to do that um yeah all right well um i i i realized that we've been talking for quite some time we've been cut off on zoom twice already and so um thank you so much um for coming on i really really appreciate it it's always really lovely to talk to you um and it's just it's just been a pleasure so thank you so much for coming on oh thanks for having me i appreciate it keep doing what you're doing it's you're you're rocking it out man really changing lives yeah oh well thank you yeah well yeah it's sort of um nice to to have things positively received i just you know i didn't know um if people would like it but um you know if they do i'm glad they do and just yeah just hopefully it helps people that's the main thing yes awesome thanks man all right well thank you so much we'll see you soon [Music]