Beating Lyme, Autoimmunity, and More | Dr. Channing Coe, Paige Held, Amber, and Dr. Chaffee

[Music] Hello everyone. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the Plant-FreeMD podcast. I'm your host Dr. Anthony Chaffy and today I have uh three very special guests joining me from all around the world uh coming to tell me about their uh experience with the carnivore diet and how it's affected them and even the new medical doctor convert uh over as well. So, thank you all so much uh for coming on. Happy to be here. Yes. Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited. Yeah, you're very welcome. Um well, I I suppose we sort of start with whomever, but um it would be great to hear a bit about yourselves and what you do and uh you know, what brought you to the carnivore diet. Well, I'll start. My name is Amber and um I work with Paige at the Yoga Joint. I'm the director of teachers there and also work side by side with her and we've been f friends for a very long time and um she's the one that really kind of turned me carnivore if you want to put it that way. I was a vegan vegetarian for over 20 years and thought I was like living a healthy lifestyle. I always had a very kind of strict diet and always very concerned with my health, my well-being, exercising, doing all the right things that I thought I was doing. And I always had issues with like my blood work coming back where I wasn't absorbing nutrients like vitamin B and vitamin D and zinc and all of the phosphorus and things and I never really felt amazing but I thought that I was doing what I should be doing. So, I just stuck with it and I pushed through and then um I ended up getting COVID in 2020 towards the end of the year. And I never got better after I got COVID and I was just like my body felt run down. It felt like it was shutting down. Nothing felt good. So, I was with a TCM doctor and we were just running a lot of tests and he was like I was like, "Do I have long haul COVID?" Wasn't sure what was happening. and he then um ran an an ANA test to see what was going on with if I had any kind of autoimmune and it turned out I had limes disease and he said it was probably dormant in your body for all these years and then it you know sparked up when you got the COVID and your immune system was compromised. So then he just started treating the symptoms of lime but he was like there's really no cure for it. He he slightly suggested that I make some changes to my diet, but I was not open for it whatsoever. And he was like, just try to eat a little bit of fish, maybe add in some ground beef. And I was like, I'm just going to stick with what I know and do, you know, what makes what I thought made me, you know, feel the healthiest. So then I was like just going down. I was had a lot of inflammation. I had a lot of joint pain. I was getting headaches. I was having issues with my eyesight and just not feeling good. no energy, no stamina, nothing. But I was still plugging through that vegetarian diet. And then Paige was like, I sending me things like your stuff through Instagram and all these like podcasts and things to listen to and I was just not having it. So a couple like year and a half went by and I started getting these rashes all over my body like horrible just like skin problems on my arms, on my legs, on my stomach. And um I went back to my functional medicine doctor and he tested me again and was like, "Well, now you have markers for lupus." And he's like, "That's what happens usually with autoimmune, like you get one major virus, then a co-irus." And he's like, "I'm telling you, just just start adding in a little bit of animal products to your diet." So, I started really slow with um fish. So, I would go I would have lunch with Paige and I would eat a little salmon. And then I started to like feel better on those days when I was eating it. And so then when I met back with him, he was like, "Try the ground beef." He's very pro carnivore very much. But he also knew, you know, he didn't want to push anything on me. He knows better. People are ready to make the choice when they're ready to make the choice. Like you can't do that for him. But this one was still pushing. Still pushing all the articles, all the podcasts. So I was like, I'm just going to try it. I'm just going to do it for like a month and see how I feel. Like go all in carnivore because I was at a tipping point where I just could not stand the way I felt. I didn't like the way I looked. I was feeling super frustrated. And so I did um I started and in two weeks all my symptoms were gone. Like I did not even believe it. The skin rash I had been having off and on when my when I would have like an inflammatory response off and on for over a year and it had gotten so so bad. It was probably covering about 80% of my body and then in two weeks completely gone. I really didn't even believe it myself, but I was like something's going to trigger it. Something's going to come back. And I've been now carnivore since July and I haven't had any any incidents since then. and actually have never felt better in my whole life ever. Amazing. I had a test recently about three three months ago, blood work, another um antibbody test done. No markers for lime, no markers for lupus, everything clear. Yeah. My cholesterol went way up, but oh well. Probably good. Means you're going to live longer. It used to be very very Have a good brain function. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, it's been transformational for me on so many levels. So I tell everybody my husband's carnivore now. My oldest daughter is carnivore. Her husband is carnivore. Their four-year-old is carnivore. So it's just it's been like really a positive shift in my life 100%. Yeah. Nice. And that and that's it's interesting too because I mean you were sort of like a living example of that that conf the healthy user bias. You know, when you when you make these healthy make these changes, I'm going to go plant-based. And then you're exercising, you're sleeping right, you're doing all these things that are good for you and and then we associate that with people going plant-based. Then now they're more healthy. But they're actually doing 50 other things that are really healthy for them as well. But eventually down the road, they can they can start manifesting these further health issues. And um and sometimes people mistake a plant-based diet for just eating a cleaner diet, just not eating junk food and and exercising and things like that, but you saw yourself even though you were being very healthy in all these other ways that your health was suffering as a result of that. And it wasn't until you switched away that you actually saw improvements, you know, which is it was going to be very hard to do when you're sort of in that in that mindset that well, what I'm doing is very very healthy. It has to be. Everybody's saying it is. And and I'm sure you would have seen improvements from eating junk food and sitting around on the couch. So obviously, you know, well, you know, you saw it yourself. You had improvements, but now everything's the wheels are starting to come off as well. So, you know, good for you for um being brave enough to make that change. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, for sure. My I have a similar story where for I was vegan for 25 years and hardcore, never cheated once. I'm very like when I put my mind to something, I do it. And I back then I did it for spiritual reasons and for health reasons and because I thought that I was doing right by the planet. Little did I know all the information that you put out and Dr. Kimberry and Sean Baker about things with the planet. I was just like, I didn't realize that when you make an avocado farm, you're killing gophers and squirrels and birds and worms and like, you know, vegans don't talk about that at all. So, all they're talking about is that you're killing the planet and that you're killing the cows and everything. So I was super brainwashed to think that this is the the highest best diet for me and for my loved ones and for the planet and to reach whatever god you want to reach. So that was my reasonings and I kept on it and I was sick all the time and never once in 25 years did I think maybe it's my diet. I was also super healthy. I didn't eat junk food at all. I never snacked. I didn't have the like because there's a lot of junk food in the vegan world. There's tons of like soy ice creams and cookies. I didn't really do that. During my pregnancy, maybe a little bit my pregnancies, but for the most part, I was super healthy, working out, doing yoga, meditating, lifting weights, doing all the things. And I always looked healthy on the outside, but I had so many problems. And I was married to a doctor. My poor husband, what he has gone through with my stomach issues alone. I never I mean I don't want to get too tmi, but I had every stomach issue on the planet. My husband had to help me do enemas all the time. I couldn't go to the bathroom and I just was always bloated, bloated, bloated. I would see different functional medicine doctors and different MDs. And I saw a a what what is it, babe? A gastroentertologist. Is that what it's called? entrologist. I saw him. He put me on some Nexium and some other stuff and I don't like to take anything and that was difficult. And then finally I'm I'm 46. So around 38 I had just gotten so frustrated. I had seen every doctor, neurologists, I had joint pain. I had heart palpitations. And I know a lot of that was my hormones starting to shift. But again, no one said anything about the diet. And then a couple years ago, like three years ago, is when I ran into on Instagram Paul Saladin. How do you say his name? Paul Saladino. Okay. Paul Saladino. And I was like, "This is crazy." But this is interesting. Like something just resonated and I it just felt right what he was saying. But I was scared to say anything to anybody because I was so hardcore vegan that I just was nervous that my friends were going to judge me or even my husband or my children. And my children, my poor children, I I made them be vegans until finally my at the time my 21-year-old now he was 10. He's like, "Mom, I'm eating a steak. I want a steak." And I was like, "Oh my god, buddy. Like you can't have a steak." And so I started like not allowing them. they wanted it. So when when they started to want it, I was thinking, man, I want it, too. But it's just so hard because you think that it's not going to be good for you. And you're taught that meat and bacon and you're taught that it's bad for you, butter. So I came from that school of thought that like I I mean, I grew up in the 80s and 90s where we had margarine and seed oils and everything. And I'm sure my mom thought she was doing right by us, but fat-ree everything. And so fast forward, I a couple like maybe three years ago ran into his Instagram and then it took me to you and I started listening to your podcast. And when I listened to your podcast on um the ones like the one specifically the title is like why vegetables are bad for you. I have sent that to like thousands of people oxalates and I was just like this is me. This is me. This is me. This is crazy. This is Amber. This is my husband, this is everybody, my kids, like every This is crazy. Like, no one should be eating vegetables. And everything you said just resonated with me in a way that something hasn't resonated in a long time. And when I get excited about something, I love to just share. And it's interesting because it's got me gotten me in a little bit of trouble with some of my really good friends. I have two of my best girlfriends and I'm sure they're going to listen to this and I'm sure they're going to hear this and I'm not sure how they're going to take this, but I just this is my story. They both have RA and they have one of my best friends had to get her whole entire jaw replaced from RA. She's my age. She's 46 years old. She's young. She's beautiful. She has these this beautiful husband and family and she has this great life. And then my other best friend is a little bit older but not much, early 50s and she's really really struggling. And so when I went on Paul Saladino's way with the fruit, it really helped a lot. But it wasn't until I was introduced to you that I was like I just resonated with me to go strictly carnivore. I listened to I think her name is Michaela um Jordan Peterson's daughter and with the lion diet and I was like this is me. Like I have had all these issues my whole life. Like I just cannot believe that it's I felt like I met my people. I was like even though I don't know you guys I was like this is crazy. They all have the same issues. I had joint pain like restlessness. I couldn't sleep. My heart like all this stuff. It was terrible. And then as soon as I went strict carnivore like you suggested, like really just take everything out. It was life-changing. I I'm 46 years old and I'm super active. And I was like I was like crippled. I was for sure I had RA. I was for sure I had all this stuff. I got all these tests done. My markers weren't showing that I had anything. But my I started going to her doctor, the functional medicine guy, and he's like, "Look, an any other MD is going to look at this and tell you're fine." But I'm telling you, you are right on your way. So now it's been a like a straight year of carnivore. Everything has gone back. I a few times have been like, "Okay, let me try to introduce blueberries." And I feel like total, you know what? After I eat it, and you think like, oh, a blueberry, but it just my body is just like absolutely no. And now all my markers are great. I feel so good. I sleep through the night. My joint pain is gone. Like gone gone. And it's I I don't feel so heavy in my thoughts. That's been tremendous for me. The anxiety part of it, it helped my anxiety. And I also like Amber, I didn't believe that it could be like this. Like when I heard everybody else, I'm like there's no way. Like they're not me. I've struggled my whole life with issues. Now I'm like regular in the bathroom, which I've never been in 46 years. I'm still working with the functional medicine doctor on a few things um just to get my micro um biome like better. But one of the things I wanted to make sure I mentioned that was so cool that I think you'll find interesting. I recently did a DNA test and it's called the DNA company. And it shows on my DNA through my genetics that I should be on a low carb diet. And I always instinctually knew that, but everybody told me that I was going to wreak havoc on my body and my hormones. And at my age, you have to have carbs. And I kept saying, I just feel like crap when I eat carbs. Like something's not right. My sugars feel terrible. I'm like up and down. And everybody's like, "Oh, you'll figure it out." When I took them out, people were like, "You're going to get sick. You're going to get sick." And I'm like, "I don't think I'm going to get sick. I feel so much better." So, I thought it was interesting that my genetics are showing that I should be eating this way, too, which is really cool. So, I'm just so grateful that you have your podcast and your Instagram because it really it it changed my life. Now, my kids are 18 and 21. My they do more of like the Paul way, so they do the fruit and the veggies. They love it. My son, my 21-year-old, drinks bone broth every day. I'm like, never in my life would I thought and he's getting all the gains at the gym and he's like, "Mom, mom, I got this many grams of protein. I had two fillets today." I'm like, "Good, bud." Like, it's so great. My daughter, she's getting ready to go to college. And she's like, "Mom, how am I going to be carnivore in college?" I go, "You can you'll figure it out. Like, you know, you you'll do it." So, and then having my husband come on board and do it with me has been amazing because I know a lot of people struggle with getting their partners to do it with them. So, I'm I'm really lucky that I have so much support, my best friend, my husband, because I did catch some flak. It actually caused a little bit of a rift between one of my best friends and I, because I was because of her RA, I was saying, "You should do it. You should do it." And she was like, "No, I'm on medication. I'm managing my symptoms. I feel fine." And she doesn't know what I know. She doesn't She doesn't listen to you. She doesn't listen to Shawn Baker. She doesn't listen to Kim Barry. She doesn't listen to Courtney Luna. doesn't listen to Steak and Butter Girl. She doesn't listen to all these people that have had these crazy stories of people exactly like her that have cured their RA from carnivore. Like, but like Amber said in the beginning, like you can't push people and it it's you can just use your voice like you do and like we do now. And so, it's been a cool journey. Hey guys, just want to take a second to thank our sponsor, Carnivore Bar. I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat. For those times that you're out hiking, road tripping, or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat, fat, and salt if you want it, the Carnivore Bar is a great option. So, I like this product not because it's just pure meat, but also because I want the carnivore market to thrive as well. And the more we support meat only products, the more meatonly products there will be available in the mainstream. So, if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind, check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off, which also applies to subscriptions, giving you 25% off total. All right, thanks, guys. That is really cool. And it's it's funny, too, you know, because everyone says that if you go carnivore, you're going to get horribly constipated because you're not going to have fiber. You were eating nothing but fiber, and it was the worst thing you could do. The worst. The worst. It is really remarkable. You know, I know probably you feel the same way, Doc, but the I was telling everybody now, and we started off with Paige, that in medical school, they barely teach you anything at all about nutrition. And in the OB/GYN residency, I got a little bit just because of the actual pregnancy nutrition. But now, after I had a huge life uh change where I got stabbed with a a needle in surgery and almost ended up losing my arm from the infection, and that kind of started me on that was about two years ago. And it started me on a path of, you know, trying to get myself better and to get myself healthy. And thankfully, you know, with my wife, I've always been kind of on the healthier side, even though my body didn't really show it. I always was the fat kid. I always ate carbs. I always I I was carnivore before it was carnivore, but I also added in the French fries and everything else. So, but I have to say that it was the last kind of pillar that I talk about like I did exercise and I did um peptides and I did some testosterone replacement, but once I started like fullon carnivore, I can't tell you my body changed like never before. I'm right now I weigh 182 pounds and not one time in my life except for on the way up in probably fifth or sixth grade did I ever weigh 182 lbs. And for my whole life I was in the 240s and 250s. And once I started eating carnivore and once I stopped the carbohydrate addiction because that's really what it was. They don't teach you that in medical school. They do not teach you that sugar is literally a drug. I tell people now in my office when I'm going through consults with them, sugar is like it might as well be crack because you crave it. You do things for it. You you eat it when you know it's not good for you. If we could just eliminate that from our diet and it would just kill insulin sensitivity and insulin resistance and increase insulin sensitivity and make everybody better. I've in the last year and a half now that I've been talking about this pretty much non-stop in my office, which is one of the reasons why I'm literally retiring from obsetrics and gynecology and moving into the longevity and wellness field is that I've seen not just with Amber and Paige and myself, but I've seen hundreds of people now that have come through that even maybe not going full carnivore, but just decreasing significantly the amount of carbs and increasing significantly the amount of protein. That change alone, it helps people's insulin sensitivity. It helps their their mental status. It helps their body. I mean, it does wonders for people. And a lot of the times we can fix people without putting them on medicine. So, it's been a huge change for me. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, it it's interesting, you know, you mentioned the the nutrition medical school. It's it's it's practically non-existent. I just literally non-existent. Yeah. I I I like you reminded me though that probably the one piece of nutritional like I I can think of three points points of of when we discussed nutrition. One was in pregnancy that you shouldn't eat soy because it has high you know phytoestrogens and it can you know feminize you know a male fetus and like that was that that was actually mentioned to us and I remember horrifying this poor Asian guy. Um he was there with his wife and he was just like oh yeah I'm just I'm doing really healthy. I'm eating a whole bunch of soy. And I was like, well, actually, we just got taught that, you know, this could has a lot of phytoestrogens and it can, you know, um screw with your testosterone. He was mortified, never eating soy again. And um and um and the Framingham study, you're just told that, you know, cholesterol, you know, causes heart disease. And um and the only thing they ever told us about sugar, and at least we got this much was that it showed the the biochemical um processing of fructose in the liver. And that that basically goes down you know the acid alahhide pathway with um you know that alcohol does and gives a fatty droplet. And so that was there was that professor's point was that saying well fructose is just a is still going back to fat being bad. Well it's a very fatty carbohydrate so it gets it turns into fat and then fat causes problem because you know fat's the the root of all evil. That was it. So three points and um and that was it. Um but uh it's it's great to see um you know you coming around to this and and you know just just clinicians in general seeing this because I mean there actually is a lot of evidence there. It's just not spoonfed to us. We're not taught this in medical school. We're not taught this in residency. And as such, a lot of people think, well, the curriculum is is set by people who sort of know everything there is to know and this is the best of the best and this is what this is this is what all the best evidence is going to show on all these different points. We don't really realize that it's nothing close to that. It's um no and you know I was trying to tell them and I've also kind of relayed this to patients now when I see them is that I before COVID was my big turning point. I always believe that the reps kind of told us the truth that in residency we just, you know, we c they those guys came before us and they taught us the right way. Not realizing that now I know because I I think actually one of you might have one of your podcasters when I heard this was that um you know talking about the residency programs are all subsidized by the pharmaceutical companies. So it's like you you might be making $40,000 as a resident but the hospital is making $40,000 from the pharmaceutical company just to pay you for your residency. And then once you get out, the pharmaceutical reps, all they're doing is pushing whatever they're telling them to push. And I always just kind of believed it and took it with a grain of salt. Maybe read one or two of the articles that they gave us and then started suggesting it to my patients. But now I read everything. And it's shocking when you read everything. It's shocking what you can actually see. And now I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, get off that. Let's get you off that. Let's figure out how. Every single time that I've talked to a friend of mine, especially the cardio my cardiology friends, when I tell him what I'm doing, my cardiologist literally he's he's one of my my neighbors, he literally sat me down after my appointment and he said, "I got to tell you, for a 55year-old man who is obstitrician gynecologist and under a lot of stress, he goes, "You have the heart of an 18-year-old." So, my calcium score was zero, which was great. My cholesterol was a little high. And he goes, "I would normally put you on a statin, but it my my total cholesterol was like 2011, so barely barely high." and he keeps calling me because he really wants to get me onto a stat. And I said, "It's not going to happen." And I know that you feel like you have to tell me that, but I understand where they're coming from because that's how they're taught, but they're not taught the the really the right way. I mean, cholesterol is so important for the brain, for your nerves, for so many for all your hormones. Like, there's there's a a long list of everything that cholesterol is important for. And to give a statin for a a number, you have to, you know, I saw one study that said you have to treat 300 people with a statin just to get one patient with a with a benefit of it. That's 299 people that you're not given a benefit for it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so, I mean, even even just being a bit more circumspect on who you prescribe that to, you know, I mean, trying to trying to isolate, okay, who's the one out of 300 that's going to benefit from this? Is it the guy who's one point up on their cholesterol with a CHC score of zero? Probably not. Yeah. Probably not. Yeah. Yeah. And uh Yeah, that's great. And hopefully, you know, he comes around. I mean, because he's, you know, he's obviously a friend of yours. You have you have a sort of He's he's still young. I'll convert him in a couple years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly. Because I mean, if if he's seeing you and he's he's looking at your heart and he and you're doing ex polar opposite of what he was taught. Yeah. He told me it literally didn't make sense what he saw. There you go. So, hopefully because it's not making sense, it'll start to click in like, well, maybe maybe there's something else going on here. Oh, that's good. Yeah. And um so is this um is this something that you've obviously, you know, doing sort of the the lifestyle and and longevity um sort of practice you're converting into um you can certainly incorporate the these sorts of things in there. But is that something you've started incorporating into your practice now? Absolutely. Yes. Um so, you know, I do tell people because I really believe it's not that the strict carnivore is not really for everybody. However, I think that there may be a time where it might be good for everybody and it's worth a try. I definitely ask them to increase their protein because every single patient that I see across the board is deficient in protein. Um, there's nobody that's there. Most of them if if it's 130 lb woman I want are having 130 grams of protein. They're usually 40 or 50 when I tell them to really just count it for the week and see where you're at. Most of them are at 50 to 60 grams. Um, so I use I try to get them to be mostly protein and decrease the carbohydrates as much as they possibly can. And I tell you, once they do it for a week to 10 days, almost all of them just keep doing it because it's they get such benefit. And I I tell them, try it for 10 days and see what's wrong. See what how it goes. And if you don't believe me, then just, you know, the proof is in the pudding. You'll see what it what it does for you. Mhm. Yeah. the the protein one is so so underrated because it's um when you look at the statistics I I forget the exact statistics but you if you look broadly and you look at you know the US or or certainly developing countries things like that they'll see it's just like well you know like 66% 70% of people are are reaching this you know agreed upon sort of you know protein uh threshold for the day but that they not realizing that that protein threshold is a minimum it's the minimum minimum yeah I was horrified to see that that that 70% of the American diet is made up of carbohydrates and and that is insane. That's insane. And whereas, you know, and one of the other things that I'm so happy about this and it's kind of lit me up as I told you I'm 55. It's been, you know, almost 30 years since I was in medical school, but it's like I'm learning new things and going back and learning things that I've read before. And now in this light, it kind of makes a whole different has a whole different meaning and a whole different picture. And it's like you don't realize how good ketones are for your brain. Your brain prefers ketones to glucose. Yet we have so many people running around with such high glucose levels and building up insulin sensitivity. But your your brain actually prefers ketones like on a 5 to1. If you had more ketones, you have less Alzheimer's disease. You have less neurological disease. You have less dementia, less anything that cause goes with the nerves. And it it prefers the ketones. And your body really can run for long periods of time on ketones. Yeah, absolutely. And um it's interesting. Yeah, you know, going back I I love going back and reading some of these these papers. I mean, I I found a JAMAMA article from 1956 basically excoriating the whole cholesterol heart hypothesis. It said like, well, basically now in in medicine, it's generally accepted that cholesterol causes heart disease. But this is based on really faulty um studies and really, you know, bad science. they just went through and just point by point by point, study by study, just just tearing these things apart. And um you know, we we forget that this was hotly argued and um debated for decades until finally the the USDA just declared that cholesterol causes heart disease. And then going back again, you know, JAMMA published um uh actual internal memos from the sugar companies back in the '60s, you know, so they published this in 2016, but you know, it showed that that they were paying off uh professors and doctors from all over the place, Harvard and elsewhere to push this this narrative. Yeah. And that was one of the big studies that came out. When I heard it, I was like, what? Like those guys, three doctors took the the equivalent of like $53,000 each to say that it was it was uh not sugar's fault and that it was cholesterol's fault. I heard that on the Joe Rogan podcast and I blew my mind, but I went back and read it and it was true. And now you're just like, "What?" Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. No, it's crazy. And I I actually came across another one. And I was I was researching something cuz I'm sort of doing a um a lecture for for medical conference next month and it's basically titled rethinking autoimmune dis autoimmunity. And I'm arguing that it's not actually autoimmunity at all. It's not your body attacking itself. That your body is attacking your body's being attacked by things like lectins or glyphosate, some sort of chemical compound from a plant or somewhere else. And that your body's doing exactly what it's supposed to do and it's and it's defending you against that. But because these things are stuck to your thyroid, they're stuck to your joints, they're um you're getting collateral damage and um and I think that that's right and it certainly fits with the phenomena especially when you remove these things and the problem goes away even though you still have elevated circulating antibodies and I found a paper from a doctor freed in 1991 basically doing his whole argument right back then in 1991 detailing going through all these different autoimmune issues Hashimoto's MS etc. saying that the idea that the body is attacking itself, you know, would have to satisfy, you know, these these criteria, but they don't. You know, we can see that in in these sorts of ways. So, the evidence is actually against this being the body attacking itself. However, all of these criteria are all satisfied by the known damage and consequences that lectins, the plant lectins cause in our body. That that was sort of a new science back then. Um, and so he was arguing that these diseases were were likely caused by lectins. And then when you go back even further like to Dr. Salsbury in the 1800s where he was curing people with rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's, ulcerative colitis, etc. Other autoimmune issues um by putting them on a just a pure beef and water diet and um you know that that you start to and and he again argued that this is this is being brought about by the food. the food is causing some sort of, you know, toxic compound or reaction in the body and and you're getting sick as a result of that. And this is, you know, it's not that you have a disease, you know, so it's like you're getting lead poisoning. Lead poisoning has very specific manifestations and end organ damage that you can, you know, that you can quantify and define. And for a long time, we didn't know that it was from lead, which people just getting sick in a particular way. And then centuries on they said, "Oh, actually this is from exposure to this metal." That's how how strange is that? I think we're doing that same thing now. We're sort of having this this lead exposure. We don't realize that it's lead. We don't realize it's the plants. And this is just a consequence. This isn't a disease. This is just the known consequence of consuming these these products. I think it's really interesting. That's I was telling Paige that one of the first questions that I ask everybody now when I see them at you know for my whole career I've been seeing women their age from you know 38 to 53 with all these complaints and complications and things happening in their life and I used to kind of just say well what's happened and tell me now my first question is what tell me about your diet what do you eat the first question and it's so it's they all say the same thing they're all high in carbohydrate low in protein and they think they're doing right by doing the vegan diet and it's just not that's it's not necessarily the right thing. And I feel like, you know, it's such a good thing that we're talking about it to kind of get it out there now. Yeah, definitely. And and certainly from a from a fertility point of view, I mean, that's got to have huge ramifications. You know, I mean, fertility rates are lower than they've ever been. Have you have you seen have you been able to to to get improvements in people's, you know, hormones and fertility by changing their diet? Yeah, for sure. PCOS is one of the big things and one and with PCOS even you get more you get better ovulation and we are seeing people that when they change their diets they literally just get onto a normal uh normal hormone cycle and then they're able to get pregnant a lot faster. Yeah, it really is remarkable which which definitely makes sense, you know. I mean it's so funny you know Paige you were saying earlier that you know someone saying like oh if if you get rid of carbohydrates you're going to destroy your your hormones. It's just like it's it's literally the opposite because insulin blocks estrogen production in in women. Um and and blocks conversion of testosterone into estrogen in women. So you get too much testosterone, not enough estrogen. And you know, that's that's PCOS in a nutshell. And um and so yeah, it's it's very funny when people make these claims. you know, it's it's so you know, you being a doctor, it's I'm sure you've you've come across this as ironic as well, but anytime you go carnivore or you do something outside the norm, like everybody in their plumber is now an expert. They're just a worldrenowned cardiologist. It's just like you're going to kill you're going to get heart disease, you know? It's it's quite funny. I'm sure you've experienced that as well. All the time. Yeah. All the time. Yep. I have a question for you. I know this is not me interviewing you, but I have a question. So, I'm curious how when my friends that have the and I've never even I've never asked my husband this question either, but the friends of mine that have the um it's in their family, so it's genetic or it's their predisposition to have heart disease and high cholesterol that are on statins because it is more um in their family and they say they can't go on carniv carnivore and I don't I can't speak to it. So I just say okay of course like you know you do you but I'm curious what the advice is for people who do have heart disease that runs in their family. Maybe their mom or dad died of a heart attack. They do have high cholesterol, whatever that means. How do you what do you think about them going on a carnivore diet? Well, I I think it's I think it's fine. And I mean there's a there's a lot of ways to look at that because you know having heart disease run in your family. I mean it's like saying that diabetes or obesity runs in your family. Is that because there's there's a genetic it's it's entirely genetic or is that because you you've had your your lifestyle um and habits you know uh influenced by your family. You know 80% of people who have obese parents are going to be obese themselves. That's not genetic because 100 years ago the obesity rate was 1.3%. You know now it's 43%. So it's it's completely um environmental. Well, it's it's largely environmental in a lot of these cases. And so if you're saying and you know in the 1800s and before heart disease didn't run in anybody's family because it just really wasn't a thing. I mean I my greatgrandfather um was a physician and he um still to date the youngest ever graduate from Columbia uh medical school. He was like 20 years old and he had to go home and they couldn't even start his residency till he was 21. We had to go home. He's like the the 1800's version of Doogie Howser just sitting at home just waiting so he can practice and um and I have his old um one of his old medical textbooks from uh Sir William Osler. And so it was just um just home. I have the same book for my grandfather. Yeah. Oh, do you? Yes. Nice. Yeah. It's it's amazing. And you go back it's it's first of all it's really interesting to see what they how they looked at things back then. Um, have you I don't know if you looked at the chapter on diabetes, but it's um it just talks about like the treatment for diabetes is putting people on a zero carbohydrate diet. That's the treatment, you know, and um you know, with type 1 diabetes, it's um still largely fatal, but not always. And um with the, you know, mature onset diabetes and we call it type two diabetes, it was it was largely controllable and and um and reversible with a ketogenic sort of diet. But um you know Osler mentions um atherosclerosis and specifically in that diabetes chapter he talks about you know this is very aogenic that you can get these sort of plaques but doesn't talk anywhere about heart attacks like MI the first diagnosed um or proven autopsy confirmed heart attack in America was in 1912 so people knew about these atheroscllerotic plaques but they didn't really know what else happened after that you know And so it wasn't until 1912 that we started seeing these things and call it like heart attack because you know as as you know you get a moardial infarction you block off the blood supply to the coronary vessels and part of that heart muscle dies and then it can scar down and that can cause aneurysm that can rupture but it may not even scar down. and they rupture before that because the thing's beating the whole time and now you have this dead piece of muscle and all of a sudden it just bursts and then you get this you know hemoparicardium and and the heart compresses and you die and you can die from an arhythmia as well but this guy in in the 1912 I can't remember his name but he said it was like a heart attack it looked like someone had had reached inside the chest and ripped open the heart it was just it was a dramatic sign and people thought that it was just ridiculous so the first time that had been described in the literature and atherosclleros is had been described previously. So they could see this and people smoked, people drank, people, you know, had had those sorts of influences. But it wasn't until the 20th century that we saw this massive, massive, massive increase. And um we were eating more meat in the 1800s, throughout the entire century, the 1800s, than we were in the 1910s, 20s, and 30s when this became the number one killer in America. And then meat consumption started to rise and heart disease started to rise as well. So if you start at that point and you cherrypick your timeline, you start from, you know, 1930 onwards, 1940 onwards, you'll see meat consumption going up and heart disease going up. Oh, this perfect correlation. Okay. Well, go back a decade. Go back. Then you also have to look at the sugar and the processed foods that also went along with that at the same time. Yeah. Exactly. And that's the thing too, you know, when people talk about Anel Keys and um and how, you know, he was he was, you know, an earnest researcher. Well, we know he was being paid to uh to do these things and he wasn't and he wasn't declaring it. So, that's fraudulent in and of itself. But when he did his seven nations studies, you know, could could have used 22 nations. He had a full data for those, but he used these seven nations. But even if you just take those seven nations and this was pointed out I saw a talk from um from a University of Washington um um phologist actually interestingly enough and she presented on this and she pointed out that the um R value so the relative risk association increase that he used they had this sort of parabolic exponential increase in cholesterol and heart disease in these seven nations and that R value was like it was like 0.845 something like that. And so his conclusion from that and something he advocated for decades was that well you know maybe cholesterol causes heart disease maybe it doesn't but it's not that big a deal. You don't need it. So just drop it out and replace it with sugar because it's an empty calorie but you need those calories. So because people were getting a major a lot of their calories from fat back then because people understood that was that was important. So he said, "Okay, well just cut out the fat and just replace it with sugar. You know, you need those calories. What are you going to replace those with? Replace them with with sugar." That was his argument in the Seven Nations study. He his own data for those seven nations, those cherrypicked nations had the exact same R value for sugar as it did for cholesterol. And yet he said, "No, cholesterol bad, sugar good." I mean, so you know that this is just just a fraud. Um so heart disease didn't didn't run in anybody's family before the 20th century. Um now familial hyper cholesterolmia so people that have you know family patterns of high cholesterol. Um when you break down the data a little further you'll see that in that it does increase your re your risk for heart attacks and strokes. But in the earlier decades once you get to 50 it actually breaks even and you have sort of the same uh risk throughout your life. But then uh people have broken it down further. Dr. David Diamond has um published on this um and and and cited these sources um where he talks about how people with familial hyper cholesterolmia actually have a higher prevalence of clotting disorders. So they're more prone to clot in a lot of these people genetically. And what is a heart attack? What is a stroke? Largely it's because you're you're having damage and you have a clot and it blocks off this this artery. And um so if you're more prone to clot, then that's going to increase your your risk of getting heart attacks and strokes. And so when you separate the data and you look at just the people that have the high cholesterol but not the clotting disorder, they have the exact same uh risk as the rest of the population for developing heart disease. And it's only the people that have higher clotting dis uh propensities, they have the increased risk up until the age of 50, right? And so, you know, um as far Yeah. So, that's sort of how I break it down. I mean, there's a lot of ways to look at that, but um in the 1800s, we were eating far more meat than we ever did before. And um and yet we didn't have we had we could see atherosclerosis. It wasn't like just doctors were just stupid back then and and now we know better. They knew a lot more than we do now and they they could do a lot more with a lot less and they had to because they didn't have all the imaging and and um and and you know and knowledge that that sort of we we sort of standing on the the shoulders of giants to see further you know so um yeah that's how I I think now it's becoming a little more nuanced with even just it's not so much the total cholesterol that they're always worried about you can look you can break it apart into the smaller pieces of like you you're interested in looking at the apo B level and the lipoprotein little A and those things because it's when those things are there and you get the oxidative damage in the vessel wall. A lot of the cholesterol is actually protective and helps smooth out the inside lining of the of the vessels. So even though cholesterol is there, is it necessarily the thing that's causing this? Not necessarily. Because if you can reduce the oxidative stress and if you can get rid of the bad stuff that's happening, even people with the high cholesterol don't show damage to the endothelium. Yeah. And and even just being ketogenic can help with that as well because um when you're when you're metabolizing carbohydrates in your mitochondria, that actually produces um free radicals and you actually increase your oxidative stress. And so now you're going ketogenic is a cleaner fuel for your mitochondria to burn and and you're having less oxidative stress and damage and you have less glycation. You know, you have lower blood sugar levels. If you have higher blood sugar levels, those glucose molecules physically fuse to other molecules and damage them. And so HBA1C is is the the glycation end product, the advanced glycation end product uh of hemoglobin. And so you we use that as a as a surrogate for the overall damage that's happening to your body. So and then another thing that that um I mean that that which actually was um I don't think they mentioned in medical school but I came across it in medical school was uh high homocyine. Homocyine is known to damage the artery lining and things like B12 which only come from meat um help metabolize that and lower homoyine levels down. Methylated B vitamins. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And so um as you mentioned, you know, 70% of the calories that people consume in in America are carbohydrate based. And if you sort of, you know, go a bit further from that, you see about 80% of the calories are plant-based. And a lot of those are processed plants. But plants nonetheless and plants don't have B12. They can have some folate, but they're they're not going to have B12. And so most people are going to be severely deficient in B12. And there's a there's a Dr. Anker Verma who's uh an emergency physician in India, you know, one of these big massive hospitals in India. So tons and tons of people coming in but you know they're all vegetarian and so they're eating three kilos of uh meat per person per year is the average in India right now. So it's largely vegetarian vegan diet um people traditional vegetarian Indian diet but they have some of the highest heart disease rates in the world some of the highest um diabetes rates in the world. There was a there's a study published in the Lancet in 2018 that found in urban and rural areas in India at least in that study they found a 25% uh type 2 diabetes rates massive and in America it's only 9%. Right? So you know you can't really blame that on meat and you're not going to and I mean the whole push now is just like all the dyes and things like I agree like red die 40 sort of things they're bad but you know there's other things that can cause problem too. Yeah. Exactly. So, and he's f found so they're doing a big study now where they're having these people come in with with acute acute injuries uh cardiovascular injuries, heart attacks, strokes, things like that. And he's he's just started checking all of them for B12 and homocyine. And he's found that they have I mean so like for for US US numbers like um you use POGs per milliliter and the reference range can be like you know 200 to 900,000 something like that but Oxford University published a study in 2008 that showed that if you had under and I'm converting it from ples per liter so you know forgive me if it's a little bit off but from roughly 700 pigs per milliliter down that after 5 years on MRI annual MRIs that their brains actually shrank by 2 and a half% volume. It's actually causing brain damage in their brain to shrink and under what would it be sort of 450 500 that um their brains actually shrank by over 5%. So you know from 200 upwards that's still such a critical deficiency in B12 that your brain you're getting brain damage and obviously the people's homocyine is going to be off from that as well. So in India it's even worse and so their B12 numbers were in the double digits. So they were under 100 in a lot of these cases. It's not even they weren't even you know at 200 they were below 100 in a lot of these cases. And and and you want your home assisting quite low um for for their units. you want to you their reference rules say below 15 but you know different studies would show actually below seven is where you want to be um yeah and um but they're having homocyines of 40 50 over 100 one guy had a homo he was like a 21-year-old guy got came in with a heart attack stemi heart attack at 21 years old his B12 was 40 and his homocyine was 220 right wow so it was just insane and so I don't know what I would do if I saw that number. Yeah, it's it's insane. And like I was looking at I was I was like I was like are they using different units like in India? I'm like looking I'm like no it's the same it's the same stuff but yeah but I mean and and so he's seeing people in their in their 20s having heart attacks and strokes. He had a kid who was 17 years old came in with a STEMI heart attack. Wow. And it just insane. Just insane. And so you know the 17y old kid Yeah. Exactly. And he was a vegetarian. you know, he's a vegetarian with with with minuscule B12 and rampant homocyine, normal cholesterol, and u and now this kid's got stances. You 17-year-old kid, he's going to be on on antiplay for the rest of his life, you know. So, wow. You know, it's uh it's pretty pretty shocking what's going on. Why do you think what food can do to your body? Yeah, exactly. Why do you think that they're so hesitant? they whoever they are so hesitant to push high protein or ketogenic or carnivore low carb diet like why is it still so yeah I have an answer for that well please yeah go for it hey everyone really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show and for everybody down in Australia Stockman Steaks who are delivering high quality grass-fed and finished pasture-raised beef and other meat flash frozen and vacuum sealed to your door something that I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well. They also have a great range of specialty items such as highfat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver, kidneys, and beef heart as well. So, use code chaffy today for a free order of beef mints or another specialty gift along with your order at stockmanstakes.com.au and I'll see you over there. Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, Noah, she knows what I'm going to say already. I just I I really think there there's a financial responsibility of the people that are running these companies and running the the pharmaceutical companies. Unfortunately, they have literally a responsibility to their shareholders to make more money. So, whatever they can do to make more money, doing all these things that we talk about definitely makes them have less money because as people get healthier, they come off the cholesterol medicines, they come off the diabetes medicine, they come off the seizure medicines, they come off the anti-depressant medicines. A lot of times they can come off their hormones. All these things are money that every time you see someone coming off of a medication, that's less money that those people are getting. I don't know if you feel the same way, doc, but I've been a little bit jaded since the whole COVID fiasco. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, it's you get to a certain point and you just have to develop a healthy level of cynicism. You know, you just have to realize that there's just some junk people out there that are really only interested in themselves. and not realizing that when you when you help your fellow man and you help your society and your community that it actually brings everybody up. You know, uh you know, a rising tide raises all ships. And so, uh but they're trying to just they I mean, you know, in in the whole sort of old paradigm of of um you know, some sort of uh oppressive uh situation where where people are trying to get wealthy off the backs by exploiting other people. like that's actually happening in these certain in these sort of scenarios. And so there are people like that. There are people that will do that and are willing to do that. And um and and these are the people that are funding medical school programs and residency programs and they and they fund the um uh the conferences. All the major conferences and things like that are sponsored by Nestle and Coca-Cola and Pepsi and Fizer and Merc and all that sort of stuff. So they're dictating what comes out. It even got a bit more creepy um because I spoke with um uh Dr. Stephanie Senif, who's uh actually a computer scientist at MIT and has been doing, you know, research there since the 80. Really bright lady. I mean, she did undergrad and and PhD at MIT has been, you know, teaching and doing research at MIT in computer science and AI um for decades, decades and decades. And then just in the last sort of 10 years, she started transitioned into glyphosate and looking at glyphosate. And she got she was just like, "Wow, this is this is a big deal." and um looking at that now she's um very pro carnivore and and looking into dutyium which is really interesting as well and um but what is dutyium? Dutyium is is heavy hydrogen. So it's it's a hydrogen molecule just for the layman people please. Yeah. So it's um so just like so hydrogen is just a proton typically proton with an electron but then dutarium is a proton with an electron and a neutron. So it's and a neutron and a proton are essentially the same weight and so it has the same charge. It has the same chemical well has mostly the same chemical properties as just normal hydrogen except it's twice the size twice the weight. So it actually does have different you know steric um sort of um you know uh interaction. So it it works differently inside your body and it can and when you get too much dutyium it can damage the the little proton motors on your mitochondria for one thing and you can start damaging your mitochondria. Once you reach a threshold of dutyium in your cell the cell will actually trigger uh mitosis and tell tell it to split and start splitting splitting splitting. So that's one of the things that when you see people with cancer, they typically have quite elevated levels of dutyium and that's could also send that go trigger split signal. Um, and also they've damaged all the mitochondria. So now you can't the mitochondria aren't there to police the the action of mitosis and stop that from from happening when it's when it's not supposed to, when it's inappropriate. You get unregulated cell growth which is cancer or a tumor. And so um so she's looking at that and it's very interesting and sort of it's sort of getting into the sort of the the quantum biology sort of level of of cancer and and metabolism and um and so it's very very interesting um sort of things her and llo Boros are working together. He was a professor of medicine at UCLA, had a biochemistry lab there for for years and years and years. And um he got turned on to dutyium from a guy named Gabbor Sumla who's a PhD out of Hungary. And um basically he hired Lazlo out to do um uh some research on dutarium because he thought this was this was really a a really important field of research. Lazo was just like, "Wow, it probably doesn't sound like anything, but you know, for that sort of thing, it'd be, you know, $25,000 per cell line." They're like, "Yeah, we'll take three." He's like, "All right, these guys are serious. Fine. Okay. Yeah, I'll do it." And then from his own experiments, he he was convinced that this there was something huge there. And he like just completely um changed his entire research to just studying dutyium. And um and and uh um Dr. Sen actually did the same thing. She she changed everything. now she's just doing everything on dutarium because she thinks it's such a big big deal and so consequential and um but she was telling me that that when she was doing things with glyphosate powers that be that make billions and billions and billions from from glyphosate and um and the subsequent product products um that they actually can control and manipulate what gets into the scientific literature because they're like the major sponsors of the Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine and and everything. And as such, you know, they it's just like in the news media when they have, you know, Fizer, all these things like that that you see these commercials in America and that's yes to to advertise their drug, but really what it's to do is that if they buy up 25% of their ad space and they're their major uh ad sponsor, there's not a chance in hell that they're ever going to run a news story against Fizer. You know, that was one of the other huge things that was my tipping point for doing what I'm doing is that learning that the same, you know, Black Rockck and State Street and Vanguard Capital are the same ones that own the processed food companies, they also own the pharmaceutical companies that you use after you have the processed food. And then they own the hospitals that after the pharmaceuticals don't work, then you have to go to the hospitals. And they also own the funeral homes and the media companies. So, you're never going to hear about it. So, same people own all the things. Yeah. You only hear about it on Yeah. Exactly. And um Yeah. And so it's there's all that and Yeah. And and so Dr. Senif was saying that they put out a paper or they're putting out a paper on um glyphosate and it got accepted for peer review and past peer review and they were like great. So we're getting ready to publish this and all of a sudden they got this email saying, "Hey, would you guys consider uh retracting your paper after all all been approved and peer reviewed?" And and when that happens, it's typically when something went really wrong. They found some sort of, you know, malfeasance or some sort of corruption and there's just something really bad and and that's when they're about to pull it and they basically giving you a chance to save face to pull your paper before they pull it. And if they're going to pull it after all that process, it it's a really big black mark on your career and it can destroy your career. I mean, you may not ever be able to publish again because people assume that there's some sort of academic malfeasants involved. And so they looked at that and they were like, "Oh, okay. What's this about?" And uh they thought like, "Well, look, no, we didn't do anything wrong. This is a good paper. We're going to stick to it." And they said, you know, "No, thank you. We we we don't want to to withdraw it." And so they got an they sent that off. They didn't know what's going to happen. A couple days later, they just got an email saying, "Hey, don't worry about it. Everything's fine. You know, we'll be publishing the paper. you know, you on this this journal date. Um, don't worry about it. And then independently, seemingly the next week, that paper made a a a statement, a general statement to the public saying, we will not um have our um, you know, we will not be uh told which papers to publish by our our sponsors. We're not going to be doing that. we're just we're going to publish the papers that we think are appropriate and we're not going to you know be um sort of manipulated by our our sponsors and things like that. So basically someone had put pressure on them to not publish this and so that that's going to happen as well. There was a Dr. Gary Fetty crazy down in um in Tasmania. He's an orthopedic surgeon down there and he got into a lot of heat trouble um with the medical board in Australia because they were saying he was putting out this dangerous sort of what basically they were saying he wasn't allowed to to give advice on diet. Like of course you of course you can you know that that should be the first thing that you do. I mean people are doing it all the time saying you should stop eating meat, you should lower your cholesterol, you should you know stop eating fat. So that's dietary advice. So why why can't someone give different dietary advice? Um but they came after him and um they ended up suing uh different serial companies and and for different meetings and things like that. And they found that some of the cereal companies um in Australia actually had a meeting and they and they said specifically that this damn ketogenic diet uh movement is killing their cereal sales and that they need to shut it down and they need to um discredit these doctors and get their licenses taken away so that they can discredit them and see oh this just a quack. You know that's what I say about Dr. B. Oh, he's just a quack. He lost his medical life. No he didn't actually. you know, um he was uh he stopped, you know, he started helping people without needing surgery like a real doctor does. And his group tried to bounce him to get him out of there so they could just start making more money so the hospital could start making more money. And instead of just talking to him about it, they tried to, you know, attack his medical license to just sort of bounce him to the side. While he was dealing with that, they could go and start, you know, doing all these unnecessary surgeries on people and making money. And you know, he beat that rap. You know, it was never his license was never taken away. It was suspended pending review and it was reviewed and he said, "Yeah, you didn't do anything wrong." And so, uh, but now people use that. Oh, he's just a discredited doctor and blah blah blah. So, that's what they do. And so, they tried to do that with Gary Fecky as well and get his license taken away. And they said that in that meeting, they said, "We need to discredit these people. We need to get their license taken away." And they and they mentioned Gary Fecky by name. we need to get his license pulled. And then, wouldn't you know, the head of the Australian Dietetics Association, whose major sponsors are Sanitarium Foods, which are the major cereal producers in Australia, owned by the 7th Day Adventist Church, who are religiously anti-meat, they are the number one sponsors for the ADA. Um, wow. All of a sudden, um, the head of the ADA calls the head of Gary's hospital and says, "You need to shut this guy up. You need to shut him down." And, um, they got one of the nutritionists at the hospital to put in a formal complaint against his medical license saying that he's uh, giving dietary advice and he's not a dietitian. And they they went after him for years, years, and years. And it went all the way up to the highest level. And um and it was finally decided in their favor in his favor um you know that like you know of course you can give nutritional advice and it and it's helping you know I mean he was he was he was having to do amputations you know like diabetic foot amputations leg amputations things like that but then he put them on ketogenic diets and all of a sudden their diabetes is reversing and all of a sudden their their legs are healing and they're not they don't need as extensive of amputations if they needed amputations at all. So, he's doing real medicine. He's doing real good by his patients and um and he's being attacked for it and vilified for it. So, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's hard to stick your neck out. It's definitely the first one. Yeah. And uh you know, so but because of Dr. Fat Key, I'm more protected, you know, and people like me are more protected in Australia, right? because this has already been, you know, there's already precedent and um and so it's already been decided that no doctors are absolutely allowed to make these these medical recommendations and um now which is great um it's now um in the the official government guidelines in Australia to treat diabetes with ketogenic diets and is now and it's been so successful in the past sort of four or five years that it's now considered best practice to use that. So now you're you're you're protected, but it's it's still, you know, in in its infancy, like it's not getting taught in medical schools yet, but um or residencies, but I mean, there's there's there's people trying to do that as well. Like Dr. Lukin down at at USC, he's trying to do a like a I don't know exactly what it's called, but like a you know, metabolic health residency or something like that, you know, and actually have a residency teaching this sort of stuff. And um so good. But yeah, but I I totally agree with you. I mean, there there are a lot of powers that be that that make trillions of dollars um on the backs of people's, you know, ailing health and selling us poison and then selling us the the antidote, not even the antidote for the poison, but something to mitigate temporary solution and then Yeah. on down the road. Yeah, it's crazy. It's wild. But, you know, the good thing is is that, you know, once you get this out to people, like that only works because people choose to buy this stuff. Now, they're trying to now they're they're going to the next step, which they're trying to outlaw meat and make so you can only buy the garbage that they they want to sell you so they can make money off it and then make money off the the the illnesses that that are um begotten from that. But, um in Australia, they're doing that or in America? All over the world. Like all over the world. Yeah. I mean, you know, they're they're trying to kill, you know, so they're saying that that, you know, we have to kill half, you know, all the cows in Ireland. They're talking about killing half the cows in Ireland. Um because, you know, Ireland has such a such a horrible time with with global warming, I guess. You know, it's missing rain every single day. And uh and yet that's, you know, that's their carbon footprint is is horrible for for some reason. And they want to kill half the cows. In Denmark, they're doing the same thing. They're trying to they're trying to get people off their land. They're trying to to confiscate the land from people and then get it back to the, you know, the wealthy land barons, the black rocks and the governments to just own everything and get us back to a feudal system with, you know, uh, feudalism and surfs and just no one owns land, no one owns anything. And these land barons like the Black Rocks and and whatever the governments, they own everything. And, um, you know, like the WF statement, it's 2030, you own nothing and you love it. And I was like, okay. I like it. It's so great. I know. My husband will have a farm next week. We'll we'll be on a farm next week. Now that you I'm already I'm I'm here in South Africa looking at land right now. It's beautiful. Perfect. Nice. Perfect. Yeah. No, you can get a lot there, too. I mean, you can get a lot for a little. It's like the um especially land and things like that. Um because uh yeah, the land is land is very affordable and the you know, labor is very affordable as well. Like I know I know people that had um you know big gorgeous mansions and things like that and it and they got a couple Mercedes and it's like the Mercedes cost as much as the house did, you know, and Yeah. So because that's that's made outside of the country and things like that. But yeah. Yeah. I I sent I sent Paige a a house that we were looking at and she's like, "We can't afford that. That's $40 million." And I'm like, "But that's in the rand so it's really only like a little over a million dollars." Yeah. It was It's crazy. I thought it is. It's I knew you would like it. Yeah. It said $42 million and he's like, "No, babe. It's not American dollars. It's like$2 million." I go, "What? There's no way that house is $2 million. It's on the ocean." Yeah. And it looks like it's in Malibu. It's It's insane. Yeah. Insane. Yeah. No, I had when I was when I was traveling around Europe and playing rugby over there, like I knew um some people that were, you know, sort of my age and and they just like some of these people would, you know, when you're bouncing around like traveling around like stay in hostels and things like that and there's a lot of these people from South Africa that were like living in these hostels, you know, it's a cheap place to do and they would just like work in hotels cleaning or this that and the other and they were just working to make British pounds which you know very strong currency um then and now. And um you know if you could save up like £30,000 um you could go back and you could you could buy a mansion on a house you know on like it was it was just crazy like people Yeah. like sand blasting leveling like an entire cliff uh sort of top and then you build this big massive compound on there. Yeah. 20 years ago when I was down there it was like 250 grand you could do that US. It's not much more than that now. Yeah. Yeah. So, no, it was amazing. No, I I I love that it's um you know, I have heard that it's gotten a bit more dangerous, but um you know, I don't I don't know. Uh but I still there's still a lot of people living there. So, you know, if you I'll tell you what, I've had a I've been here for a couple weeks and I've had a beautiful experience. It's great people. Everything we live in danger. Yeah. Used to danger. Yeah, that's we thrive on danger. Yeah, exactly. Well, I was I was going to ask you guys as well. Um, you know, you sort of mentioned some of the some of the the improvements you've had and how how you transitioned, but you know, what what are you guys seeing now? What are some some of the improvements that you're seeing now? What's the contrast uh before and after? And um you know, what has that continued to get get better and better? Or is it are we looking at the sort of the vegan thing where it's better at first and then you're starting to tank? For me, it's getting better and better. One of the biggest things that I've noticed is my skin. I say that I'll post about it at times. And of course, you get the vegans that are like, "Oh, that's that's actually not good." I'm like, "Well, it's good." Like, everything got tight. Like, people have asked me, "You've gotten work done. You got your face you got your face done?" I'm like, "I I swear to God, I did not get a facelift. I want a facelift for for that matter, but I did not. My skin is like seal skin. It's like tight and but in my late 30s and early 40s I would be in yoga and I'd be in a down dog and my thighs were like crepey and that is gone and my like it through here that there's no crepiness and that alone I'm like okay ladies like for that alone for vanity reasons like your skin becomes totally different. I I do Botox and I didn't I I didn't get Botox for like a year and I was I didn't even need it. I was like this is wild. So the skin was a huge difference for me and the the body composition, the muscle tone that I just tried and tried and tried to get before I could not build muscle. And then we just recently got another vegan friend who was adamant I'm not doing I'm not doing it. But she's goes to the gym with us and she goes to yoga with with us and she walks with us and she just goes like guys I'm never going to do what you do. Like I know you're a vegan and I know you're now well we've we've converted her and she's like I cannot believe how I feel my muscle definition. She couldn't pick up five pounds and do bicep curls. Now she's doing 15 20 pounds and she's texting me. Oh my god, Paige, I had a ribeye last night. I'm I'm doing 20 pound reps. And I'm talking about Alexis, babe. And she's just in shock cuz she's only been doing it for like two months. So in two months, she's like, and then Lorena, another vegan friend who they they they go from vegan one day to carnivore one day. So that's also interesting because they're just like, I'm just going to try it. I'm just going to go all in. And they see results so quickly. So that's that's been my experience. The skin has been one of the biggest thing and the muscle tone. Yeah, for me it's been like energetic 100%. I've never had this much energy in my life. I've never slept this well. I've just never have really felt this good and it just but it's continuing. I haven't plateaued. I, you know, I just see the benefits every day. And I feel like even though we're getting older, we're getting [ __ ] Yeah, I was just going to say it's like she just turned 50 and she's not on any sort of HRT and most women at 50 would be plummeting at this stage and she's thriving. Thriving. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah. And for me, I would say energy-wise, too. I mean, my energyy's gone through the roof. I used to sit and be kind of sedentary. I don't know if you can see, but I'm going to show you my picture. Can you see that? Oh, yeah. That was me. That was me at 278 pounds. That's what he looked like. Yeah, she married that. But for me, I I noticed the energy and I I will tell you maybe six months or so ago, our son brought home a pizza that I used to love and I ate a piece of it. The next day, I have felt terrible. And for me, it's been like the energy. I sleep so much better. You know, my muscle tone has gotten way better. I actually have muscles here. I don't know if you can see them. Yeah. So, for me, I've definitely noticed that. And my endurance, too. I swim five or six days a week. Now I do three usually like three and a half kilometers. Um and my my energy I could just go through the whole thing now and it's it's it used I used to be dying at just 1,000 meters and now I'm going three and a half and and I just I won't I keep wanting to go more. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. And and and then the autoimmune issues and everything like that too. I feel like the brain fog too. I I was I I kept thinking that I'm just getting old and I must be bored and burned out. But I I feel so different in the last, you know, 10 months now. I really feel like I'm I'm I'm in I'm on it again. I I feel totally different again. And we and we were mentioning as well, you know, a lot of doctors getting burnt out. Um just watching their patients get, you know, despite their best efforts just get worse and worse and worse and finally succumb to these chronic diseases and then all of a sudden they start getting to a point they start getting these diseases. they start getting their their diabetes and high blood pressure and they're just like what the hell is going on and it's just um and it it's just and people quit and they're just like I don't want to do this anymore. this isn't this isn't I'm not helping anybody and then they you know come across this and their their health improves and now they can see and now they're helping their patients health improve and it revitalizes their career and from the sounds of it you know you sort of had that you know a bit of that as well you know saying wanting to to revamp your practice to u you know a longevity and wellness sort of approach because you know you're you're so excited about actually being able to it worked for And I'm like Paige, I can't stop talking about it now. I And the good thing is a lot of the patients know me as well, so they've seen me make this transformation. So it's not like I'm just saying, "Hey, do this. It'll be good for you." I've actually done it and I it worked for me and it to be honest, it wasn't that hard. You know, the diet was the big big part of it. Yeah, definitely. Well, that's great. Well, I I think it's fantastic that you guys are are doing so well, and I'm I'm really uh appreciative that you're you're helping spread this to so many people. You know, it's just like those those personal connections spreading out just makes huge huge difference. You know, just those those ripples in the pond, it just it just keeps going, keep going, keep going. Like, you know, you're the catalyst in your your friend's health and your your family members uh health and journey and they're going to be the catalyst in in the further circle as well. And then certainly as a as a clinician, you you get an even wider reach because you can start applying this to your patient base and um and then as they start seeing their health improve. so dramatically now they're going to start splintering off from there as well. So, it's really great. So, thank you all very much for that and thank you all so much for taking the time and uh and coming on and tell us your stories. It was absolutely great to hear it. Thank you so much. It was so lovely to meet you and this was such an honor. Thank you so much and I can't wait you on my podcast. So, when my husband is back then and then I have lots of questions for you. I had to like I had to I saw you holding it in there. I did a couple times. I was like, "Okay, don't." Yeah. No, happy to. Anytime. Thank you. Thank you all so much. Yeah. And thank you all for watching. Hopefully you enjoyed that. Please do send this to someone who you think would benefit from that. And please um say down in the comments what your experience has been with a carnivore diet and what things that that have you you have improved or or are still uh waiting to improve and maybe need help on because people in the comments uh are always very willing to help people out when they're stuck as well. So please do leave a comment, like and share and we'll see you next time. Hey guys, thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say. If you like it, then please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast. And if you're on YouTube, then please hit that little bell and subscribe, and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out, which should be every week, if not more. And if you could share this with your friends, that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing. Thanks again, guys.