Carnivore Bodybuilding with Jonathan Griffiths!

with Dr Anthony chafee where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnival bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products that will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10 off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25. all right hello everyone is uh Dr Anthony chafee another episode of the plant free MD podcast today I have a special guest and bodybuilder Jonathan Griffith Jonathan thank you for coming on the show thanks for having me on I'm really glad to be here actually um it's quite a delight to speak to someone else in the community someone that's um also like muscular you know you don't often see muscular people on YouTube as it is so it's good to see someone like across the globe sort of thing doing the same thing as me so I'm really glad to speak to you actually yeah well thank you very much I appreciate it and and just thank you for making the time I you know I do appreciate you taking time out of your day um so uh can you tell us a bit about yourself and what you do and you know how you know how you came to carnivore and uh and sort of what what you've seen that do for you show us my my story is a bit different to most people there's a lot of people have got into this space from speaking to like Sean Baker maybe Kelly Hogan um you know there's quite a few ladies like a few years ago it's just Sean Baker now it's you know it's really popping up a lot more but um my introduction was actually quite different so I started from a bodybuilding background and my whole thing was getting ripped I couldn't get ripped I'm like honestly ripped I mean like I shredded glutes like lime-free hamstrings like extractions every looking sick sort of thing um I'm quite I'm probably one of the least vain bodybuilders but I like the process of it like getting lean and developing your body seeing the results like tracking everything very analytical so that's part of it as well and I sort of came across the idea that a lot of bodybuilders were sort of doing almost like a meat only diet towards the end of their stage like the Qantas preparation and now this is like a two-week block their day like to carve the plate you know before they carb loaded and got the extended guts and you know can't digest basically and I just got I just I just felt like why don't I just do that you know why don't I just do the get lean bit so um I tried it out you know I did the um you know the high protein I wasn't really adding much animal fat um now as time has gone on I've sort of appreciated and understanded the value of the animal fat so I know you're an advocate of um I think you said like 70 fat or something sometimes more um so yeah and it seems to be my my issues vary depending on what sort of um what body comes short to acquire but that's basically how I got into Carnival and my main thing about YouTube and speaking to people like yourself other professionals is that I won't I won't speak to people that can put out a message and I want to help out the message or the thing you know the carnivore diet is it's it's not a fad it's not something which you think oh it's like oh it's just keto it's just um it's just like the new veganism sort of thing it's it's very different um you've spoken about you know the anthropological beginnings of the diet Evolution every aspect of that um I've been following the community very closely and um I think I've just got enough knowledge now to sort of stopping out my ideas and you know how it might apply to bodybuilding so that's kind of my Niche um yeah yeah and so how long have you been doing doing that like just really in a carnivore or sort of uh diet and what have you noticed as far as your bodybuilding is concerned yeah so um I've been doing it for I'd say roughly two to two and a half years um the I've had some times where I've come off it more so it's Christmas and you know the thing is with me I've got one of these personalities where I have to be on something or off something I can't sort of you know sort of differ and say oh I'm gonna do carnival six days a week you know it has to be something you stick to you know um I think study came out recently or something where they said you know if you have like a you know pretty short amount of carbs on one day I'll say it's on a Monday um might not be until Wednesday or Thursday that you sort of get over that hump like that brain fog like your the addiction to Sugar um and like my general just having enough animal fat so yeah and how it applies to bodybuilding I guess is I've always been interested in sports performance I have studied that closely I've got a degree in human nutrition um that's very much health based by chemistry so a lot of things that you bought k um Harris a lot of the experts will talk about the people you know in this industry um so yeah my thing was basically how am I gonna get shredded like or like game or muscle in the most efficient way what what was it gonna be you know so I thought let's get down to the Bare Bones of human nutrition you know what do what do we need to survive like sort of move around and get our muscles working sort of thing and just maintain strength and get the body we want this this protein and fat like we don't need carbohydrates as I can go into gluconate Genesis if you want but if something's been covered to death so maybe maybe not but like yeah I mean I'm eating at the moment um something like 250 to 280 grams of protein a day and somewhere between 160 and 200 fat my trick tends to do something a few days here I feel adjust it I'm not quite at the stage yet where I feel comfortable just sort of saying all right this is my ratio um but I'd guess for generally speak I'm doing under 15 grams a day of carbs um carbs where they come from eggs cheese Dairy so that's you know that's my carb sort of thing yeah there's no like rice or you're not gonna I find it because I mentioned earlier about my personality in that in such a way that I can't just have a bit of something right my girlfriend's very different she can be like oh you know I have a couple of Skittles and that's it I have to have the whole pack so it's for me it's a lot easier just to say sorry let's just not do it at all let's not have this yeah I I'm I'm you know I've taught this before but like when I was a kid I had we got like a 10 pound pack of gummy bears from Costco and like I just I just didn't stop eating these stupid things until they were gone and it was like it was a day and a half of just solid just handfuls of gummy bears and I didn't enjoy it and I was just like oh my God is this horrible mouth is raw and like and it didn't taste good it did not taste it couldn't I couldn't even taste anything after a while and I just I just kept it was just some compulsion to just keep eating them and and I just kept I kept doing that and so yeah I'm exactly the same guy unfortunately so that was it was a pack of Skittles then yeah if it's a 10 pound pack of gummy bears is you know it's that too that's a really good point yeah like it is the diet or the way of eating its application is so widespread like people with eating disorders you think you know are you eating fat you need a lot of people who have the issue of eating fat which I've I've seen very common like my family um I don't know what it's like in the US I mean the stakes in your area of the world well you're in Australia aren't you yeah in Australia right now yeah yeah but you're from the US but like the the US of um it's they've got fattier steaks than we do they're much heavier meat eaters than we are um in in the UK we like if we want to get fatty steak we have to search for a fatty steak it's not going to happen um so we end up just doing a lot of mints over here in the UK we we proportionately very hard amount of mints in our country so it's ground beef for those that use different terminology but um yeah that's the application is like yeah people like us we we sort of managed to sustain and build I'm going to preach about muscle and perform a high level like you I know your workouts are you you're drinking on you know you drink nine liters a day your body must be going for a lot to get through that so it's intense workouts that you're doing so it's obviously what we're doing is fueling that um it's evident you know yeah definitely and did you know I certainly feel feel that way and like my workouts have never been better than when I'm on on current board just night and day and and I'm I find that I get quite lean and quite muscular much easier like obviously you know every I mean because this is just how everyone's lived for in the last at least 60 80 years you know and so people that are athletes people that are doing bodybuilding we've all been eating carbs we've all been using glucose and you know sports drinks and all that sort of stuff yeah a lot of people have gotten in very good shape and extremely muscular and extremely lean there are ways of manipulating your body to do that that are you know potentially you know not very healthy but you can you can get that that that result um but I've noticed that one you know it went on Carnivore it's so much easier it's so much easier to build and maintain a physique that I like and and to and to perform athletically I've just found that it's it's very easy have you have you found the same thing yeah I mean I'll go into first like the body composition aspect then the performance aspect but um just remind me if I forget I start rambling um the body composition like yeah I found sort of I can just manipulate the macro slightly the amounts of food I'm eating in about a week There's a shift there's an obvious like my body fat calipers have gone down or depends what I'm trying to do sort of thing there's it's very um cause and effect you can really see the results um in terms of like I mean I I did it for I was in shape last year as in like had it had like striped glutes around nine months last year I was doing Carnival diet for the majority of it um I got it I got into that sort of shape in about eight weeks and that's unheard of bodybuilding I mean people I wasn't coming from like a fat State I was probably a bit you're not fat but as fat as than you sort of thing um so I I guess I've got into shape sort of thing really quickly I was like is it this is weird I've not had to my level the thing about bodybuilding or just physique development in general is that the amount of suffering you have to really get to to sort of get to that sort of stage of condition and your body and like how how your fat sort of appears is it's um it's it's enormous like you struggle like your feet hurt your bum uh sort of thing sitting down everything your body's just struggling to sort of move because you're not giving it a substrate sort of work off but I I found like I had no no sort of excess hunger I didn't have like an enormous appetite like I didn't feel like Arc really does another meal like that's completely satiated throughout the whole process and I was eating at the time gone for this another podcast I was eating time I believe about 500 grams of protein which is ridiculously high geez um but I thought I thought you know why solid why not just just see what happens like what's my second album you know so yeah I'm not recommending that to anyone so dinosaur yes um yeah on the time I was using gear so it might maybe that sort of allow that amount of protein to do more I don't know or vice versa who knows but the fat um content was about 150 200 grams and I'm like well who can die on you know I don't I don't believe in the calories concept we know that's not what it is like I'm I'm worried on that sort of thing but like it turns out food labeled food calories I was on about 3 600 a day and that's at the lowest point um I was doing quite a lot of activity but before I'd get into shape like two thousand six hundred two thousand eight hundred and that was that was sure I was really churning through like working to to get to that sort of condition um so that sort of covers the composition the body composition sort of element of it um performance I was expecting I think a lot of people get wrapped up in you know there's an updation period in like doing like you know just keep to or carnivore and yeah there is your body does different things you you're trying to fuel your body a different way um so that's why we'll say to people like you take it easy don't sort of rush into it maybe if you're eating I don't know 300 carbs two Enterprise a day two 200 protein 200 carbs just lower it week by week or whatever you happen to be doing as a an awfully or a physique sort of competitor um and my strength has been very consistent um I've lost about say between 30 and 35 pounds in the last eight to ten weeks um I've been eating the same amount of calories per day labeled food calories so yeah I've not had to adjust that all I've done is just protein fat just switch them around to see what I feel best on um so it's it's it helps with your I think so the diet sort of helps with your cues and understanding what your body needs like you I don't know if many people talk about this but you sort of think oh I need a bit more fat today I need a bit more salt or um you know I just feel a bit dry like I need more oily fish you know you get these sort of cues in your head which I think is quite it's gonna be an innate sort of response you're not going to get that if you're still chucking in as we know some people um 100 grams of Honey a day I don't know kilo fruit whatever it is you know yeah I think that I think that intuitive sort of eating is I think that I think that is a bit indicative you know of what what you need if your body's saying you know and I think that too like when I'm meeting leaner meat and at certain points it's like this is getting the plan like I still want to eat or I'm like that's not really tasting good then you get like a fatty piece and you're like yes that's that's what I'm looking for and so yeah I've noticed that as well and um and you know that that's interesting because the thing is choose it I mean you're going for a very specific result you know you're you're training your body you're working out very hard at very high level and and you're going for a specific physique as well and so you know I think most people um even athletes that that are that are like high performance athletes can can just eat intuitively but I think that when you're going into the physique side of things I think that's when you have to you have to you you might have to tweak things and I haven't done these stuff so I can't say that for sure but for the people I've spoken to like yourself and others and um you know like uh um you know like uh you know Robert Sykes that keto Savage like he was saying as well like you just you you there are ways of just sort of fine-tuning things and just slowly bringing them down to try to get to where you want without tanking your metabolism because obviously if you drop dollars too far you're gonna slow your metabolism then you're working against yourself and um so yeah so I think that's um yeah that's something that you may have to do as well but it's good to see that you know that you're able to perform at a high level you're able to get the physique that you want you know with carnivore because that's something that that a lot of people ask me about they say well like well but is this good for for bodybuilders don't you need to have carbs to bulk up and then cut down and and all these sorts of things and and intuitively biochemically and from my own experience I'd say no because you can just put on a lot of lean mass and your biochemistry works a lot better you're not putting in a bunch of storing a lot of muscle glycogen and an intramuscular fat that you just have to lose afterwards anyway and uh and that that's sort of been my thoughts and then uh but you know what what are your thoughts on all that you know come being someone who's had to actually do it yeah I mean I I come from both sides of it I mean I I know you've sort of you've got more into it uh the last few years I know you sort of you'll see new or like one or two decades back sort of thing you know you don't need the plants and they're not going to do much for you you know um but it's it does seem like our brain's gone dead what did you say what was the last Point sorry oh you you were just talking about um you know like a lot of bodybuilders want to you know say that oh do you need carbs in order to like build them because you get things like that and I thought probably not and then you were talking about um yeah that's a lot of things that's why I script A lot of my videos I go from tangents I'm autistic so I'm uh oh sorry a bit I'm well as I'm talking to you now I'm thinking about three different topics so yeah I really have to listen to what you're saying to stay on track um yeah so I'm I'm conscious of that so just like redirect me if I'm off of it um um yeah so the the carb thing like Junior carbs to build muscle um whereas a proponent in the bodybuilding industry his name's milosh sartev he's got results for his clients from having using you know exogenous insulin and a high carbohydrate diet particularly in the post pre and post um workout window his theory behind that is that you're shuttling more nutrients into your body and theoretically uh makes kind of sense but you're not counting you're not considering the fact that you're getting all that the glycated protein um all that you it's it's you know a lot of these sugars and things are toxins um I don't know if you know much about deuterium but the deuterium content of some of these powders is insane and you know things like honey is something like 160 um parts per million of vegetarian versus uh like say pork fat or um Tallow 130 or something I just had a conversation with a guy about deuterium um Gabor um so no that that apparently that's his student or something like that but yeah they they've been here for like decades but yeah uh they're both interesting topic yeah yeah yeah super interesting that's something I didn't I didn't know much about yeah you'll you may I'm going I'm getting off on tangent again so you might say today in the gym I forgot my water bottle um I thought oh this is like I'm not going to be able to perform like because I had a push workout I like you know we all like to have a sort of chest and shoulder workout work our arms a bit you know sort of get a pump you know look big in the gym whatever I thought um I'm gonna deflate you know I'm gonna I'm gonna need all this water and I had about maybe two sips of water from the fountain in the gym and I was completely fine for the whole thing and that's what happens when you are fat adapted you don't necessarily as long as you're putting the fat in and the salt you will produce metabolic water in your body will upregulate it's um the ADH sort of um pathway so yeah that's just that's just off something but yeah my first is a lot less I don't need I used to drink like you used to be nine ten meters a day easily yeah and now I'm drinking you I'm I'm actually more muscular now than that now than then so and yeah anyway yeah well I was gonna say two yeah no 100 um you know from from the metabolic water side of things you do make when you're burning fat in your mitochondria you actually create water that's low deuterium water uh sort of as we're alluding to and and that's and that seems to cause it like a lot of benefits uh for a lot of different things for a lot of different reasons especially in cancer biology and but also you think about it you know we're not we're not eating a bunch of fiber to rush our stools out as fast as possible while they're still wet and mushy and have a whole bunch of water in them you know our colon or one of our well the main major point of our colon uh is is to draw out that water and so when we're eating fiber we're actually fighting against that you're trying to get it out before the whole the water gets out I'm happy for all the water to get out we want all the water to get out because you're storing it you're maintaining it and so that's another reason why we would need less fat less water is because we're actually we're actually utilizing and and preserving the water that we have in our body much better as well you think expand it much better than I can yeah that's sort of um that's helpful yeah um should I get back to the point on the carbohydrates yeah please yeah yeah sure so Milo sochev what's going on about earlier High carbohydrate pre and post workout um long story short if you have enough leucine in your diet your anabolic you know sort of insulin response um igf-1 you know all those sort of things will amplify nearly just as much um people like in the bodybuilding world like to think oh you know if you need 100 grams whole state try 200 try 300 it's always like that bit more um and it like I said about the Bare Bones of human nutrition like they're trying to sort of they have this idea that you can super compensate your your glycogen to such extreme levels and it's a lot of its information they're just putting more inflammatory foods in their body and they're puffy yeah but they've got no lines no Cuts in a lot of cases and you think well I see all these Mass spots they've got no definition it's like you know I'm not I'm not enormous but I'm not not that defined either I think there's something going on there so um a lot of it's like you said you said it's just excess water just comes off you so you gain all this weight for this weight gainers car powders and it just comes off and that's the reality it seems yeah and that's what I thought you know it's just sort of you're just working against yourself you're putting on sort of excess weight but it's not muscular you know it's not actual muscle it's just it's just in the muscle and you get more glycogen it pulls in water and that gets puffy and but you're also putting an intramuscular fatness like you know the marbling on a stick that's fed grains you know that's that's from that you know you're you're laying down intramuscular fat usually you know fat everywhere and glycogen everywhere you're trying to get this stuff out of there and you know and then someone that gets into your fat into your into your muscles and so that your muscles look like they're physically bigger but it's not because of muscle tissue it's not lean muscle mass and that's something that that's a concept that people are well aware of you know it's like how do we put on lean muscle mass that's the point you know and so when you when you sort of bulk up with that you know fatty muscle mass you're gonna you're gonna lose a lot of that size when you're when you're burning the rest of the fat off to try to cut down and I just think that why you know let's skip the middleman let's just put on the lean muscle mass and forget the rest and that's kind I would imagine you know just without everything that I know about all this that that would just be healthier anyway you're not putting on a bunch of fat and then taking it off and putting it on and taking it off putting on you just you're just building up you know like a statuesque figure and just looking like a Greek god all the time you know that that appeals to me just you know intuitively you know yeah yeah yeah for like 99 of the population here you look good year round maybe towards Summer you might sort of think oh I want to get a bit better app sort of thing for the beach but you want to look good like there's always going to be times when you take your shirt off in the swimming pool sort of thing so you you don't want to look too much like a blob um yeah yeah the um the thing as well about the gaining the excess water the way is like I said the stress in your body so your blood pressure go shoot right up um I mean for most people you gain I don't know um bodybuilders after Shale gained 20 to 30 pounds within about one to two weeks and that's very typical that's not um it's absurd but it's very that's a very normal thing that or normal thing that happens um you think you watch the blood pressure go up and then they're going to take all these like supplement stacks of Hawthorne Berry and Dan's eye Roots drop the water and like then it's got the um the sort of over-the-counter stuff or the prescription only stuff so they're really sort of digging in with the um the drugs and the supplements just to get just to stay in good health you think you're wasting a lot of money here for something which isn't gonna do any good long term we've seen the deaths in what we're doing recently I don't know how many of you follow sort of look into that sort of thing but one of my Idols was um Cedric McMillan and he died from the last six months or so and he's sort of someone I've met and he's iconic to me like I I respect him as a lot of his person his values is very good and I thought that's such a shame like you know I valued him as a person and his his outlook on life and his family and how he cared for people um so yeah that that's something which sort of led me to sort of the more even more so towards the carnival diet and how it's going to affect bodybuilding physique people you know yeah absolutely well I'm sorry yeah I'm sorry to hear that um do you do we know how he he died was there just was there a reason or or what happened yeah so so you had um issues with his lungs apparently that's the latest I've had so scarring or walked around his lungs um but that's because you know it's a perfectly healthy guy until maybe a year or two before he passed and I think he's on his way out in bodybuilding like he is sort of retiring or getting towards that but um yeah but I mean that's just one example I mean aren't we going to the body power Expo in the UK for years ago and what they usually do is hang from Banners at the top of the exhibition Hall all the bodybuilders and fitness influencers have died over the last few years you sort of see Banner after Banner after Banner of all these people like I used to watch his videos I used to watch his videos but he is quite used to follow him on Instagram it's like it's quite alarming so that's it's really open minds a lot towards the dangers of bodybuilding like I've heard people recently say I I'd quite happily die the day after the Olympia if I won it and I'm like that's a bit selfish like well these people about your family sort of thing like they're the ones that support you for all this and you're willing to just go like that and not not give a damn sort of thing I think yeah they it's just I don't know if it's awareness or mentality but you know the carnivores diet really does resolve or at least alleviate a lot of the problems that these bodies are having um so yeah yeah that's the thing too is it's a bit short-sighted because obviously you're looking at this goal but you're not thinking like okay wouldn't it be nice to enjoy having met that accomplishment you know you win the Olympia and then you're dead the next day you don't even you don't even get to enjoy I mean like hell yeah I did this you can't you don't even have a chance to be happy with yourself I think I think a lot of doctors do that as well I think that you know a lot of people you know they go to medical school and it's just like they're just thinking I need to get into medical I want to be a doctor I want to be a doctor I want to be a doctor and then they they get into medical school they're doing all this stuff in like medical schools you know especially in the states it's just it's hell on Earth and it's very very busy and like you know and so in those in those types of programs you know you're just just you know guns guns blazing the whole time and then you're just you're just trying to survive and you and get through it and then you get through it and you're like okay I'm a doctor and you're like and now what you're not even thinking like long term like no I want to have been you know a neurosurgeon for 40 years and and have done all these that's what I want you know so and you do you have to look at that and like you know it's um it's important to to think about that and not just have like this one thing realize there's life after this as well you know and that's the important part you know you make that I mean like all that hard work that they did to then just just gone like it's a point you know like at least at least enjoy that you know yeah I've never start with um probably now does seem to have a bit more Health sense of approach but they are they are a bit behind on the science in some ways um for them it's very much what can you add in to your supplement regime to sort of reduce her health um problem and it's kind of it seems just like it's like counter-intuitive you're trying to stack all these things together to negate what's bad in your diet or your your lifestyle regime sort of thing um you know people were doing all sorts of funny things to get into shape nowadays is quite quite shocking yeah yeah I was um just to sort of you know just to mention uh as well or just to sort of follow up on that you know you think about it you know like you know Arnold Schwarzenegger obviously won all these bodybuilding competitions but that wasn't just gone after that you know I mean the man had a four you know 30-year career as a movie star after that that was his real career you know he made his name you know getting the Olympia but then after that that's what made him be you know who he is and so you know hopefully people see that and recognize that that's not the end that's not the Pinnacle like that can be the beginning of something and and hopefully that is for people um and they don't just do everything just come hell or high water to just get what they want and then just have nothing afterwards you know like do do things that are like you're saying just like a new stack a new this a new that just to get them where they want to go you know and and the consequences be damned because there can be life afterwards and that can be like the best part of your life as well that's right yeah I couldn't have said about myself yeah there's more there's more to life these things and I mean they say like embody when you always hear the sort of I might be phrasing a red light you know um it's all about the journey you know it's like the journey is your 25 stone in the off season you got high blood pressure the Art's about to explode in your chest and like you're sweating everywhere you're always bloated you feel horrible like what what kind of Journey is that like yeah some people can tolerate it it's bodybuilding is essentially um if I was to Define it um the ability to tolerate as much crap on your body as possible um that's from what I've seen yeah so yeah yeah like and that's the thing too you know I mean even just um just a high blood pressure thing you know there's a lot of cause of high blood pressure and one of one of them is insulin resistance and so you know if you just have especially if you're giving yourself tons and tons and tons of insulin you will become resistant to that because your body like any any drug any hormone any anything if you have higher and higher amounts of it and your body's just like hey this is too much it's going to stop you know it's going to start down regulating The receptors it's going to make it so that that's less efficacious and you need more and more and more and that's one of the things with high blood pressure is that your your arteries become insulin resistant normally insulin can help you know contract and release uh your arteries now it's not listening to that because it you know it's like insulin socking to it it's just like nope you've been lying you know you've lied before I don't trust you anymore and so it just doesn't listen and you know and then and so your your arteries stay small and your blood pressure goes up and we find that when people go off of carbohydrates even just going keto they generally come off their blood pressure medications within a few months you know it's it's actually quite dramatic and and that and that I think would be very like and obviously you know the different substances that they they can take as well and the different sort of gear that they use can also bump up your blood pressure as well but also uh you know you're in that bulking phase you're eating a butt load of carbs you know so your insulin is just high as hell and you're gonna you're gonna hurt yourself with that yeah that's right like um I know just myself my own anecdote from what you just said is my blood pressure never been high I've been quite fortunate um I didn't seem to be able to tolerate body being quite well um my digestion not so much but other than that yeah I can really pull up my body for a lot um but yeah so I I was eating at one point I think a thousand grams of carbs a day quite handily um that was wow it was very long when I say that I'm not saying I did that once as in white you know they do these little like um cheat days or things that was like I did it quite steadily for you know a good period of few months or I think um and yeah it was my blood pressure would increase quite a few points maybe 10 15 points um I'm very meticulous about my health I measure a lot of things I blood tests every three to four months and I've seen cause and effects just different markers um inflammation omega-36 ratio just from having Carnival diets greatly improved and I mean I'm battling some health issues currently but I'm still um I'm still finding ways around it sort of thing yeah you know so it's good yeah I mean I even noticed like when I when I was playing rugby I was always like you were saying like you want to get abs in the summer I was always the opposite because I I played rugby it was like a you know Fall Winter Spring sport and so I wasn't just sick shape that whole time and then like soon as summer comes around because like well before the 27th and then played sort of year round I was always in shape but uh when I wasn't playing sevens and like I just wasn't doing anything like I just I got out of shape real quick and like it was like the exact opposite I'm like this is you know like this is like you know like when I'm I'm the most lean the most ripped most jacked is when you know no one's taking their shirt off because it's Seattle and it's freezing and or it's England and it's even more freezing and like you know you just never never uh you know get the benefits of that of actually like having that that physique uh when it uh when it matters and then and then like like you were saying you put on like 20 30 pounds a few weeks I've done that you know like in the during the rugby season when we would take like a you know a few weeks off or a month off uh for Christmas um I would just keep eating sort of the same stuff a lot of meat but I would have other stuff as well and and I would I routinely stack on like 30 pounds and I always sort of thought of it at the time because I was you know because I've been just working so hard I just wasn't eating enough and elsewhere slimming down which is true I would actually lose way too much weight during the season quite often if I wasn't very careful about eating enough and as we're getting slim and then I also be eating enough and I'd be able to just back on and just swell up but a lot of that was obviously unhealthy and and then I slowly sort of lose it you know the rest of the rest of the year but I think like for me that was I might have like needed that like just sort of bulk up and then I just slowly slowly like lose it and I just sort of had something to work off for the next few months a lot of times especially early in my career I just wasn't eating enough it was just very hard for me to maintain weight and then I sort of had to figure out how to do that and just because I was I was you know I was in school I was working out I was doing all these things so often I just I just didn't have a lot of time to eat and so you know I just I neglected that and then carnivore I was when I first did that I really didn't eat enough because I was just never hungry either and I didn't have time to sort of eat and so I don't want you to eat in the evenings and then sometimes I wouldn't really be hungry and it'd be late so I'll be like oh I'll just drink some water and go to bed and it'd be like a few days sometimes I wouldn't eat and be like thinking like okay I really should eat because it's been like a couple days um but yeah so and then and then sort of off-season just like stacked back up as well but um yeah yeah especially when I was eating carbs and things like that I think that the biggest I ever got um was when I was when I was eating carbs just sort of just a normal standard diet you know no sweets or junk or anything like that uh just normal food and I think I was I got like 275 or something like that that was like it was pretty muscular but I definitely had you know extra fat as well and um and then I would and then I'd sort of trim down to like 245 that was using my my steady sort of solid playing way yeah that's you make quite some really good points there so like like me I think you're a bit taller I'm six foot one you're about six three yeah yeah so people like us like we can tolerate and eat a lot of food but we need we need we have a higher quantity of food so when people watch this video you know um bear that in mind don't look at our meals on Instagram or whatever we're doing or talk about what we're talking about food and think oh we need to be doing that um we are larger people um yeah yeah I come for a background in rugby and America football kind of enough um nice excited to play for the uni team for America football and rugby I played for the school team went on an international sports tour in oh God about 2010 or something and I had just I had to basically quit doing that because I've injured my spine basically um I've got a very bad spine now basically so I'm waiting surgery on that but um I'm gonna be looking yes it's fine it's you've got to have a positive outlook I think you can't um dwell on it but I'm I'm gonna be sort of applying the carnivore diet and a lot of principles around that and really look into it about how the best way to recover from that is um so I'm gonna everything's gonna be very specific I'm not gonna take its chance because I see a lot of people have the surgeon there's not too much relief and I'm like I don't want to be on those people I want to be someone that puts to work in and gets the recovery that they need so I can appreciate and gain the benefit of having the surgery so there's that but like I said about the quantities of food I mean my I'm six one the heaviest I've got to about 275 as well actually um I was quite quite lean to be fast for about 12 15 body fat like oh I think that sort of thing yeah yeah yeah I mean I'm a bodybuilder so my yeah pretty beefed up things different like I train different you know I'm probably not that strong but um yeah so my I've been all sorts of ways I'm now currently about 200 and I think about 240 I think or 235 throughout the eight ten percent body fat um yeah I feel I feel better now like my digestion's smooth like I can eat a meal now my I'm not sort of walk around like um my stomach's not cramping and I eat a meal and I feel like I've eaten something there's no sort of like you know like like over here in the um in the UK we have a Christmas dinner um that's very carb fat and meat heavy there's a lot there's a lot in there sort of thing um and I I quite usually have three or four plates I mean like each plate for about six to eight hundred grams um this is pretty big enough BW one meal out of the day then I'd have two or three plates of desserts like cakes and whatever I went wherever we had sort of thing but now I I couldn't I couldn't stand with that my guts sort of you you can expand and um contract sort of thing I mean the human guts can tolerate about what was it 400 milliliters or something like just a normal person just out there still and the stretches up to about I think five or six times that so you think was it what kind of pressure you're putting for your body to eat that much food and when you're eating meat and fat you're not putting loads of like deuterium ridden um like Duty and Rich sort of plant foods and carbohydrates I'm not needing to eat six eight underground meals anymore like most our meals are somewhere between um I I really try and condense it down to much nutrients as I can a small meal but it's 150 to 250 grams in the meal I'll do five meals a day because that seems to be what what I need um I'm Different a lot of people so people like yourself um from Baker I mean a lot of you guys do one to three meals and that seems to be about the norm so you know that's just me but you know a lot of people were doing uh two to three meals a day and you know you start looking at play and think I'm just eating a steak with a bit of butter in it meaning like six eggs and a bit of cheese and if you're on the third meal might be hard enough salmon and some I know people like liver and which I found but you know it's um the amount of food you have to eat and it just simplifies everything as well like you want to go to supermarket now I'm going to hurry down two aisles maybe three yeah I'm literally looking at the meat section so by a lot of minced or ground beef um I do lamb sometimes I don't eat as much chicken nowadays but at the start I did um and I just have that salt pepper I use white pepper it's lower and oxalate than black pepper um I'm going down the egg aisle getting like you know the free range or organic egg sort of thing and that's that's not much of an issue over here I think in the states and some other countries it's quite quite hard to get a good quality egg but over here we seem to be all right we've got good welfare standards and I feel better about eating those sort of things so there's that and um maybe a bit of fish yeah and it just it just implies everything I'm like it's not just the time you're sort of spending um by cooking all the foods like rinsing all the rice and cooking the rice boiling anyway it just simplyifies everything using a pan or an airfryer oven sort of thing to cook your food all right 10 minutes whatever done um you're going down a couple of vials of shops to get your food it's probably spending less because you're not buying as much random stuff like a lot of these things are like stupid amounts of money for the amount of nutrition you get out of it the amount of energy is you're paying a lot of money for sugar basically yeah yeah 100 and uh have you I don't know it seems to be something that people do I certainly do it like you're going through like Costco and you're just seeing like my car is full of meat like that's it it kind of looks it's shocking even to me I love it I look at them like that looks so awesome but like yeah other people just be like gee this guy looks like a serial killer you know and like and um you know but but like their cars you look at them and you sort of look at the stuff in there and it'll just be stacked in with just carbs and sugar and then maybe like a pack of fruit and like a head of lettuce you know and they think like oh this will this would be good that would be my vitamins you know eating healthy and uh and so many topics we can cover it I mean it's crazy um like the I I do the same like literally someone's in front of me in the queue I see the thing maybe it makes me a bit of a carnivore snob sort of thing but you can see they've got there they're very they're basic like 10p per egg like 12 12 cents per egg sort of things um might be like it but they won't have many and you think that's to feed a family of like four people four people they're in a kilo I was like my last time and I buy um loads of almonds and nuts and things that add like a bag of sugar quite often flour yeah um it's you're looking at just ready meal after ready meal after ready meal frozen pizzas you think there's not really any actual food here like and it's funny how when I go somewhere now and I look at food and what people are eating um I don't register it as food I don't look at it and think oh like I used to think oh that's that's got 50 grams of carbs that's 10 grams of fat you know and I'm just thinking all right that's that's about he loved me that's about 12 you know there's 12 eggs there might be some milk or something um I eat a lot of batter so it's like you know half kilo butter I think it just simplifies everything and I'm I'm looking at food as I I've lost this kind of like binge eating sort of like um idea in my head where I think I need lots of food and it's like I just need a lot of good food yeah yeah so do I I I don't look at those things as food either um and I think I think like technically you know not to be you know mean about it but like you know but Buddhist species specific and and I don't I don't actually think that that stuff's food does you know candy bar is not food to a gorilla you know it's not food anything really you know because it's like those aren't really things that that you know most people most animals would eat in that combination in nature and so you know it's it's really not food you can get nutrients from it but that I don't think that is a good definition of food you know I mean you can get vital uh you know minerals and nutrients as as well as as as calories which you need from eating dirt and a can of Coke you know I don't think we're dirtivores you know and like you don't think drinking a can of Coke and taking a multivitamin I don't think I don't think anybody in the right mind would count that as as food you know but but their calories you have to have calories you will die without them right and you need iron you need copper you need zinc we need magnesium all these things come from dirt why isn't that food you know and yeah that's a good point yeah or maybe we're just awesome and we can get a lot of nutrients out of things that are you know not really uh you know supposed to be getting it from us yeah we have we have these these crazy just you know uh chemical Mills in our in our body that are able to extract nutrients out of things and but that doesn't mean that that's what we're supposed to be eating or what we're uh you know most optimal when we're eating and I look at those things and I just I just feel bad because a lot of those things they're all low-fat and they all say low fat low fat low fat but it's all like sugar cereal and junk and and then they have some fruit well because fruit's good you need fruit and then the vegetables well you have to have vegetables you have to have a salad those are that's really good for you and really you know that's that's the main meal is the salad and you know so these people actually are trying you know it's not just like they're just you know some slob who's just I just don't I don't care usually to meet people that that like get that that moniker where they just be like oh you shouldn't eat red meat oh whatever you know I like it I'm gonna die anyway like whatever yeah those are the guys eating the steaks it's either the other people that are like that are trying to do the right thing they're not eating mistakes and they're eating all the other things and and it's just it's just a really real shame that they've just they've just been been fooled yeah yeah that's that's a good point I mean we've um just talking about the broad epidemiology of it all like we've seen you know processed foods gone up this much it means gone down about this much but then like the seed oils we can you know that's that's a whole lot of topic but like how much of these Ultra processes rating is insane like don't quantify you think oh what food are you eating today well I had a packet of crisps and I had a chocolate bar or whatever it is you know someone eats you think all right what whole food did you eat what what what actual nutrients did you put for your body um and it's I think it's processed food intake for a lot of people is like 60 70 um the Western World at least um I don't know if it's the same sort of thing ever else but yeah I mean I'm seeing it all the time like I don't another thing is like we have we have different levels to the carnivore diet would you agree maybe like so you've got um you've got like the straight line diet so ruminant Meats it's lamb beef mutton elk beer or whatever um salt water you know then you've got sort of um the more strict so I'm just playing strict Carnival which might be that but with organ meat you might eat um chicken maybe or I don't know salmon and you've got like lazy Carnival or less strict carnivore um I guess I'm somewhere around like lazy relax or kind of um yeah I like I let myself out like artificial sweeteners yeah yeah brilliant yeah like the sugar-free stuff I sometimes do but it's it's not like I'm putting um five five it seems the emittance or Fiber seems to be the Big Driver of my Digestive Health um getting that out in the sugar then you just have different spectrums of like the the efforts of the keto then you have like the whole food you only have Whole Food plant-based and you've got veggies then you've got vegan on the other end so you you've got this spectrum of different foods that people can eat and the sound of an American diet would even call it a diet it's just a it's a fad it's something we're doing for last 50 60 years it's not something which is like a diet really it's it's not a default food like I said like it's not a species specific diet um yeah so I mean a lot of people fit in the middle of that and now he keto Carnival sort of thing and I'll get health Improvement um some people have to go further along I think that's something I've seen a lot at least we're in the same sort of Facebook groups I've seen people all these power problems they have to get more specific with like the macro intake or the ratios where they're having ghee or butter like there's so much Nuance to this and I think um that's important like you can't always just oh you eat meat in this there's different variations to it my my dear I think your idea might be similar is that if you can get people away from like the vegan plant-based stuff and more towards real food like the meat fat things like that it's gonna benefit the health outcomes of like everyone you know so yeah no I agree and like I think I think you're just moving that direction is is really good you know just getting rid of the plants and getting rid of the sugar especially and on the processed crab alcohols cigarettes all these all these stupid plants and uh and getting more meat um I think you know is very very beneficial to people and you know people are you know I mean I I think that's the thing it's just like you know you're you're going for a very specific aim and so you're very careful about what you're eating and eating in a certain way and you found that that works for you which is awesome you know and I've done the same thing you know I find that you know I'm just eating a lot of fatty beef I feel great you know and I'll put some butter on it and I sort of go by how I feel just like you say you know I just feel like I kind of want some more butter now I want some more of this or maybe you know I'm getting I'm just getting a little bit stopped up in my you know I'm getting a bit constipated or something like that I'm like okay well I need to I need to up the fat a bit obviously um that's how that's just how I adjust things and I noticed that I eat a really big meal at the end of the night I usually that that coasts me as long as there's enough fat that'll cost me you know for another 24 hours unless I'm working out a lot in case I need to do that twice because I literally my appetite will double you know when I'm when I'm lifting a lot of Weights you're lifting a lot more than me you're doing this you know as a profession so you need to eat more than that that makes perfect sense and um you know you may not be able to get all the nutrients protein and fat that you need in just two big ass meals and you know you obviously or or you need to do that and when you're saying five meals yeah and so you know I think that that's that's the key that you know you can get these prints principles and then people just do you know what works for them in their lifestyle and and see how they feel I mean I think that that anyone and everyone is going to feel optimal on a high fat carnivore diet I I truly believe that now that may not be good enough for people to give up carbs and alcohol and it isn't for everybody I have good friends of mine that went carnivore did it for like nine months felt awesome and went like yeah actually I like drinking and eating bread and so they stopped you know but they do know like actually I did I did feel amazing like oh and then there's a sort of toy with it back and forth for me me feeling this way and and getting the performance that I get both you know at work and at the gym is just you know that that's well worth it to me to to give up bread I like bread you know I don't like it that much you know and so you know it's um you know that's easy for me but you know other people need to make that balance you know and um you know I just I just thinking it's you know you know and and I I would imagine if you're the same way you just want people to know this stuff because you know we've been told so much you know you know just on true information just just false facts and misinformation and yeah in the body will be you know you had he carved got he carved Gotti carved and you noticed yourself and like yeah I actually feel better when I don't and I get more muscular and lean when I don't and so that that doesn't really make sense and and um you know and then you know other people you see them and they're just they're just eating all these carbs and sugar and plants but they're low fat so they're eating healthy and that so many people say well I'm eating pretty good I mean I eat pretty healthy as in as in patients at the hospital who don't who have no idea what's about to about to come out and hit them you know like yeah you know because they're talking about different things and I you know like some people talk about well you know doctors just focus perimyopically on this one little thing and be like okay well here's your blood pressure here's a pill go sort out your life and they don't ask you about what you're eating if you're sleeping how much water you're getting if you're getting exercise all these sorts of things looking at the you know the taking the holistic approach you know to Medicine I think that that's I think that's a fair criticism you know and so even though it does take a lot of time to do that I try to I try to take that time so I was like okay so so you're feeling like this and these things are going there and you're having a lot of pain what are you eating how are you sleeping what's going on like oh I know you're pretty good are you pretty healthy I'm like okay what does that mean to you it was always means something different It generally means low fat High vegetables and a lot of sugar with fruit and whatever and um and that's generally what comes out and then you know we have we have the talk and uh and you know and I give them resources to think about and uh and to look into as well but but that's the thing everyone thinks that they're doing the right thing everyone thinks that they're they're eating right and like why eat pretty good I eat pretty well I'm pretty careful about that but they're having all these problems you find out that yeah it's they're they're eating pretty terribly from from our standpoint yeah it's it's I think just the populations misinformed um what it's going to make earlier but then I obviously rambled again was that um people's perception of what they're eating is very warped they the guidelines will say you know I don't know what is around the world here it's a five fruit and veg a day a two and a half thousand calories if you're male 2 000 if you're female um have I think it's something like 70 grams of protein or 55 grams of protein there's 55 over in this country I'm thinking well I'm eating five times that like surely I don't have five times higher requirement of protein like come on like then you see all this like Frailty and like the elderly they're eating like the um rows of like boiled vegetables and this that and the other and soups and it's just giving body sugar they're not giving themselves the substrates to sort of repair their body and that's something which I mean we're not working in the um the health food store people would say yeah I say oh what are you eating so I was trying to get a gist of like the right recommendations you know I really I really care about People's Health outcomes um I want people to get the most benefit for their money I don't want to be wasting money I'm quite stingy in that way myself um so like uh they'd have let's say oh I try to eat healthier I tried not to eat much red meat I have fish every now and then well I often I had it I think the other week yeah all right that's I mean some some people are I'm quite an advocate for myself my own genetic makeup for some reason requires me to need more Mega free than most people um that's my own little thing but I mean how long ago what was it I had um well actually I think about it was fish and chips you know fish and chips in the UK that's um right that's basically thick chunky french fries dipton oil with a battered Cod Phillips a white fish so no omega-3 near enough just no fan just loads of omega-6 and yeah they got they have they think that's good and they'll they'll do the same thing with like all the products they look in supermarkets low fat you know there's nothing none of this in there and they're they're looking at the wrong ideas for the solution and you look at the population the the grass which show diabetes obesity um dementia cardiovascular disease everything's going up what do we see about like the diet even like the diet surveys for what they're worth like we'll see they're following what what recommendations are they're eating less meat they're eating more low-fat foods what's that doing for them but they don't they're not cognizant of of that and that's what's important to get this sort of message across so that's I hope this sort of video will apply to a lot of people and just just to think again about what you're doing and understand that maybe you might be someone that's watching this and thinking oh I'm I'm sort of I'm falling quite a healthy diet I'll try and eat more meat and there are ideas you don't know how bad you feel until you actually admit the things that you're not meant to be eating and until you start reducing those things and increasing the fatty meat and the good quality sort of animal Foods then you'll sort of actually really get the mental benefits like you'll feel better your digestion were better um someone called Brett Lloyd I'm friends with um he's in he's in the states he's you might suppose he's he's a cool guy he's uh he's put like his depression into like remission and you see him he's got so much joy to him like so much energy and I'm like I want to feel like that guy like you can tell this guy sincere like he like he's actually got something good that he's managed to succeed with um so I think there's a lot to be said for it and even if she was just someone like he already is you know I've got no autoimmune conditions I'm fine you know just try it you might feel better but what's the worst that can happen sort of thing yeah no idea I've had some friends that uh said that as well and you're like well you know I'm sure it looks good and like it makes sense and you're doing great but I feel good you know I don't have any problems I need to reverse it's just like yeah I don't either you know but like well you realize just how bad you actually feel you know like until you get out of it and like when I when I stopped eating it was just just the place I was doing this consciously like you know not like the first time when I didn't I didn't actually realize just how amazing I was feeling and how different that was and why you know this time I was I was just like Jesus you know I was like I've I've you know feel amazing now and you know I could have been feeling like this my whole life and I felt robbed you know I felt robbed out of feeling amazing all the time and even though I I thought I felt pretty good you know and I was I was performing I was I was getting you know my you know what I needed to accomplish accomplished but I just had I had no idea that I actually was fairly miserable you know the whole time um so uh Jonathan can you tell me are you training for any any competitions at the moment or or just for your own enjoyment it's my enjoyment really uh I'm moving more towards like the coaching aspect of bodybuilding and watch probably about Health Fitness in general I mean yeah I've worked with people so also various elderly people young people you know physique people people just want to feel a bit better so that's that's basically my my goal at the moment um I'm looking at maybe doing like a men's physique competition next few years I'm my legs aren't going to be able to be I'm not gonna be able to train my legs hard enough to compete in bodybuilding with the way my spine is okay um I'm having a fusion surgery um so there's that so I'm thinking more towards the lines just mentally health just feeling good and um I basically the reason I wanted to lose weight recently was to just sort of say well how easily can I do it the least amount of suffering so if I was to be someone else I wanted to put myself in their shoes like how can I do it without feeling really hungry or low energy or losing sleep you know so I was really conscious of that and I've come to my own sort of conclusions about that for myself and hopefully um I'll be able to apply that to other people as well that's what I'm looking looking to do awesome and and are you doing online coaching in-person coaching like what um what are you doing now so I do online coaching um I'm very accessible for Instagram I have a new YouTube channel I'm having some issues we discussed earlier with um my Google Drive my video quality I've only just recently got a microphone sort of thing so I'm trying to sort it out so I put out good content but there's that as well um I've got a website as well which I can link like below or something yeah definitely so yeah I I'm very affordable um like this is a this is a passion product for me project for me um like you've sort of said like you you're your best you're the best health outcomes for the people that you're working with um I'm sick of seeing unwell people I can really miss it's common places everywhere so it just disheartens you and um that's when my my fees are affordable my I do a half hour consultation for 12 pounds that's yeah that's very good yeah so that's fifth I think 15 something like that um I'll do an hour it's about 20. so my prices are nearly slightly across ball therapy I'm I'm a third one I want I want to be able to help people I'm just I'm just charging people for my time there enough I'm not yeah so I've got nutrition degree and I've got all this experience on my body order sort of thing it's relatively high level I'm not trying to sort of cash in on that I just want to tell people so yeah absolutely well that's really cool man um yeah I I totally agree with you you know it is very sad to see people and well you know it's it's one of those things that like people have just been able to blame it on themselves on on you know the people themselves uh for being out of shape like oh well they just they just don't get off their ass they're not going to the gym they're not working hard they're just lazy and it's you know and maybe you can dismiss their suffering that way you know uh more more easily but when you know that it actually really isn't their fault you know most well most people I mean some people you know drugs alcohol things like that everyone everyone knows that that's horrible for you and they do that anyway and then you're just like well there's no helping some people but you know other people like we said you know they think like yeah and you know I'm eating pretty good I mean pretty healthy like you know low fat get a lot of vegetables not eating red meat and you're like oh it's like the opposite and you know and then they're they're unwell and they're sick and they're hurt and they're and they're unhappy and they're overweight and they you know have horrible self-esteem issues on top of all of that on top of all these problems these physical and mental issues and and that's I think is is really tragic because it doesn't have to happen it doesn't have to be there you know they don't have to be in the gym you know eight hours a day like you or I would be when we were training you know at our at our you know at our Peak you don't need to do that to be really healthy and actually pretty damn good shape you know this is like I don't I don't work out that much you know like people are shocked by that but I just I just don't have time I've been doing more on the X3 bar sort of thing because at least that's like something I can do at home and I can just sort of bang out in 10 minutes um instead of like the sort of two three hour you know same with Sean isn't he trains most days but he's done like 15 20 minute sessions something yeah just just getting something done just moving his body and then other days he'll do like a bigger session you know and he's got a pretty good setup in his house he's got a good gym set up in his in his garage and I used to have that when I was in Seattle and so when I was doing that like just at the end of the day like whatever I was doing I finished up at the end of the day be like you know eight nine o'clock I would work out until 11. that was my cut off was 11 p.m and so however whatever time I got home if I got home at seven I was working out for four hours I was just Lifting for four hours you know and like and I like that I really enjoyed that and like that's when I would listen like books on tape and and like you know Thomas soul and lectures and and uh debates and things like that and that's yeah how I know half the stuff I know is but is by you know listening to it while lifting weights you know and we've got two ears in one mouth yeah yeah exactly I I always have a lot more to learn um I think in the grand scheme of things when I finish my degree I fought on you a bit you know I wasn't cocky but I thought you're a bit now I'm looking at the whole thing and thinking but I had a lot to learn back then and even now I'm looking at some of the topics we've covered today sort of thing um people other people are speaking to there's so much more to know um we know such a small fraction of what we need to so there's there's no there's always room for growth not just in your your body in your diet but your mindset as well and psychology yeah well I think I think that's a very very wise thing and a very important realization for people to make is that you know it's um time of Soul says it was Economist philosopher that I really like uh you said that it takes a lot of knowledge to understand just how ignorant we are you know so you have to know a lot to realize how little you know you know because there's just so much out there there's so much information out there that you will never be able to get a handle on and you just have you have to be aware of that and once you get a ton of it and you see you like sort of Crest the hill and like you're saying I mean when I was in medical school I remember I remember like I remember the day it happened you know where I was going I was I was I was the same thing just cockying confident and just being like Oh I'm learning so much this is so great I'm so happy about it because this is I was realizing a lifelong dream of becoming you know a doctor and being in medical school and so I was learning know stuff I'm like oh this is great this is great this is great and then all of a sudden it just got to the point and I remember the day it just dawned on me like I sort of I sort of felt it like cresting this mountain of knowledge and got up to the top and was able to look out at this entire mountain range and I hadn't even I hadn't even known about and I was just like okay yeah I don't I don't actually know anything I just need to keep my my head down and just and just do some serious study you know because there's a lot that I don't know and um and there still is I mean there's I'm never going to be able to get like there's no person in history who has ever had you know even one percent of the totality of human knowledge it's not possible there are too many things out there and so you just have to be a bit humble about that and just do the best you can and I think that's a good outlook when you do that you just and you have that bit of humility that you could very well be wrong you know that that you are going to be um you're probably going to be wrong less often because you're at least wary of that you're looking around someone comes in like okay that makes sense let's talk about it oh okay yeah that's going to adjust that and at least you're going to be flexible and Mobile in your in your in your you know in your views on things if you're just like nope I know everything I'm super smart I've built Microsoft and so no one else can you know tell me anything You're Gonna Lose I'm just sorry you're just going to lose you're going to you're going to run into things that you just don't know what you're talking about and you're going to think you do and you're going to be wrong and it's going to be a disaster and um you know so I think that's a very good outlook um Jonathan thank you so much for taking the time I know you sort of went through it before but uh can you tell us just just how to reach you how to get hold of you how to how to track you down for a consultation no so if it's a quick question um it Instagram's probably the easiest way so that's composition underscore consultant a website for Coach inquiries consultations things like that that's compositionconsultant.com or one word and what was the other one let me think YouTube YouTube is composition space consultant cool so I'm the same and all you know awesome yeah it was good to keep that that brand out there yeah great all right man well Jonathan thank you so much for taking the time I really appreciate it and I hope to do it again soon thank you Dr cheers thank you