Getting Rid of Chronic Pain, Arthritis, and Fibromyalgia on a Carnivore Diet!

hello and welcome to the howto carnival podcast I'm your host Simon Lewis and you're tuning into the plant-free MD series with Dr Anthony chaffy Dr chaffy is a surgeon nutritional researcher and former pro rugby player he's been strict Carnival for 3 years and an on andof Carnival for more than 20 Dr chaffy looks and feels like a real life superhero if losing fat building muscle finding focus and getting the most out of life is important to you you're going to love the plantree MD series hey everyone Simon here with the howto carnival podcast and we're back with the plantree MD Anthony chaffy Anthony welcome he thank you very much good to see you good to have you here mate uh topic today is all about inflammation um and in particular pain in your body so we're talking arthritis knee pain back pain neck pain all the stuff that a lot of people I'd almost say most people deal with every single day um Anthony do you want to start off by explaining uh sort of the root cause of a lot of these these joint pains yeah so I mean you know commonly we we get pain in our joints because of arthritis and damage to the cartilage which then wears down to the bone the bone has a lot of nerve endings and they can be quite painful so once these start rubbing together you're you're getting a lot of pain the cartilage doesn't have any nerves to speak of so you don't feel anything there so it's when they wear through that you start to have a problem but at the same time you know your your experience of pain is going to be worsened or lessened depending on what what you eat and what you have in your body if you have a lot of inflammation and and things that you're eating or things that you're doing you are building up different inflammatory factors in your body you will they will sort of latch onto these areas of damage and they will exacerbate that pain so if you have arthritis in your knees which you know I have on my on my patellas you know because of just years of kickboxing since I was a kid you know doing knee strikes it just damages the cartilage didn't know that at the time but that's that's what happened the rest of KNE is perfect all my other joints are perfect but there's just that one area and it's and it's worn away and that causes a problem when I was eating sort of a normal diet that was that was fairly painful now it's not really painful at all and it's actually you know worse because it's it's broken down more since then you'll see different arthritis patients and arthritis sufferers who end up getting joint Replacements or needing joint Replacements and then all of a sudden they switch their diet they go on a carnivore diet or even a ketogenic diet and they remove so much of this uh inflammation and they are eating more healthful foods such as you know fatty meat that they they reduce their inflammation they reduce their pain and all a sudden they don't need any uh any surgeries anymore Dr Sean Baker he he found this out in his practice he was keto at the time and he was encouraging people to you know get on this diet and and they were all of a sudden didn't need joint Replacements didn't need shoulder Replacements maybe they replaced one and they were planning to do the other and then all of a sudden they said actually I don't need that how good is that yeah and you know and in true uh uh selfish fashion the Hospital group that he worked with got really upset at him because surgeries PID the bills and so you know he's bringing in office visits and he's actually curing people you know like a doctor not allowed yeah and um but he's not doing it with surgery and he's helping people avoid surgery which really is what you're supposed to do but that's not what brought in brought in the money so they actually had a a big uh problem with him so you know this works you know I've certainly seen this in my own practice neurosurgery people having you know very bad back pain which you really can't do much for except under particular circumstances for back pain there's not really many spinal surgeries that help pain mostly most of the time it's muscular scal um you get you know just weakening of the muscles and you can't support these joints properly you just get backaches and you get bad posture that exacerbates it you get arthritis in in the joints and there's not really much you can do for that we we don't have good treatments for that yet from a surgical perspective so you know people can horrible horrible back pain and you know we don't really have any surgical options for them or they have bad back pain and they have bad shooting nerve pain called radiculopathy down one or both of their legs from Pinch to nerves well doing surgery on that area is can fix the pinch nerve but it's going to make the back pain worse because now we're destabilizing that we're cutting through tissue we're take we're separating the muscles from the bone we're removing bone and you know you already had a sore back because it wasn't strong enough to support it and had a lot of inflammation and now it's even worse because now it's damaged tissue so you fix that one problem you and you worsen another problem sometimes but when you reduce the inflammation in these these patients quite often they don't even need surgery in the first place and my back pain is world's better I have horrible back pain since I was about 15 you know now I don't really have much to speak of it's just it's just a bit of of an annoyance every now and then but as long as I'm not eating anything stupid or nothing slips in what I'm eating I I I mostly don't notice it I mean I've experienced the same thing like when I will uh will slip up um have a big weekend or or whatever I I noticed straight away in the morning that my achilles are really painful um and uh and you know knees and then like an aching back and I know I can get rid of it by reducing that reducing that inflammation so I can actually feel and pretty much see the inflammation in my body but what what's the process that's going on when you know you're eating processed foods or seed oils or whatever what what is actually happening in the body to cause inflammation yeah so there are a lot of different things that that can cause that but to give a specific example or you know a particular example you we we have inflammation this is a general term you know that's a blanket term for a lot of different things but how do we how do we come back to this we take anti-inflammatories right so non-steroidal anti-inflammatories or or steroidal anti-inflammatories like you know prazone pricone those work and if you have you know you get a cortisone injection in your shoulder like you don't have pain anymore it just calms all that down uh because it just stops the inflammation the non cotal anti-inflammatories these work on on different factors that cause inflammation and cause an exacerbation of this sensation of pain well a lot of those molecules that anti-inflammatories such as you know um selective Cox inhibitors such as you know celra or even aspirin and ibuprofen uh they work on the downstream finished products of um Omega 6 fatty acids and yeah so so Omega 6 and Omega-3s are nearly identical molecules they just have you know just just a subtle difference in the shape and they go down different biochemical Pathways and then become different different molecules at the end and you need and you need these things you need both of them but you don't need as much Omega sixes as we're getting in our diet and the final product of that is what these anti-inflammatories work on so it's just something to think about you're you're you you're taking anti inflammatories to stuff these guys down and when you're eating things with Omega sixes you're you're bolstering up that number that's really interesting so the way these anti-inflam work is that they're taking out the Omega 6 well the the the finished product finished product of yeah of Omega 6 and they they do other things as well but that that's that's a specific example there are other things that cause inflammation there other things that cause oxidative stress and and other harm in your body that could manifest as inflammation and pain you know but it's that that's just one one example of that so so seed oils come to mind because a lot of people talk about you know seed oils have a lot of very high in omega-6 that can cause oxidation um and then inflammation sort of you know do you think that obvious sounds like there a big cause of General inflammation which then can affect joints Etc yeah and so when when you have a healing area you know you have have this nidus of healing tissue uh or angry tissue this is this is where these things seem to glom on for whatever reason right and so well you have an inflammatory process I mean your immune system is an inflam is the inflammatory process is your immune system acting and so when you have a healing process your immune system is going in there to try to heal this so it's causing inflammation there there's healthy inflammation there's very healthy inflammation we don't heal without inflammation uh and so but you can have pathological inflammation you have too much and it's causing a problems causing Str can cause pain and so these things come in all these factors come in and there's just you know an abundance of them and and the wrong types and and you feel a lot more pain you experience more pain and more swelling and more stiffness and so when we work out and we exercise you know we get little muscle tears and breakdown of our muscle fibers and then that's healing and so we bring in these inflammatory factors to heal these muscles and because we're bringing in too much or you know too much of the wrong kind of of inflammatory Factor it hurts and so when you don't eat that stuff you don't have that in your body in the first place and so people are find fibromyalgia is one fibromyalgia is is you know it's basically a diagnosis of exclusion it's mean you you've exhausted all of the other possibilities that it could be and you and the doctor just basically put his hands up going like I have no idea why you're in pain but I believe you're in pain so we're going to call it fibromyalgia that's basically what fibromyalgia is we don't really know what it is we don't really know what causes it we don't really know why some people experience it and others don't and what is it it's just a pain syndrome it's just you're just you're just hurt you're just in chronic pain and so these these uh unfortunate people end up being on with chronic pain specialists they're just taking heavy medication sometimes for years and it's not a specific injury that they've had like they were in an accident and they broke their back and they're just in horrible pain from that for the rest of their life this is we don't know what caused this but this person is clearly in a lot of pain and so they they call it fibromyalgia then I'm sure there are people that have you know different doctors that that have theories as to what exactly is going on but uh traditionally it's taught that this is this is a diagnosis of exclusion we don't know what it is but you know something's happening and someone's in pain and we don't have any clear reason as to why they're in pain however I've been getting copious amounts of messages from people you know saying that you know they don't have joint pain they don't have soreness obviously their autoimmune issues which is you know an inappropriate pathological inflammatory response that that these just melt away they just go away on Carnivore I yet to see any autoimmune disease that does not just melt away within you know say three to six months on a on a pure carore diet just pure meat and water especially red meat and water so this is significantly altering the inflammatory processes in your body dude I saw a great post you might have seen it as well Michaela Peterson put up I think she put it up yesterday and it was like a short snippet of her talking to the camera and she said the one thing that she hopes sort of you know in her lifetime that she sees is that people with autoimmune issues and diseases like she had are initially treated with nutrition and diet um particularly children and you know hearing you talk about that just then and you so many people have had their autoimmune issues completely cleared on a Carnival diet um I mean that would just be so powerful for the world yeah absolutely I mean that that just that could go away that could go away next month I mean that would you could you could actually get uh people to the to the point anyone who goes on this anyone who goes on a pure meat and water diet with whatever autoimmune is I mean I would you know be interested to see if one one didn't respond like this but I I've yet to see an autoimmune disease that does not respond extremely well to a meat and water only diet certainly crones and aler of colitis that's just you know just undoubtable undoubtable and um also rheumatoid arthritis uh Hashimoto even Graves and you know I I again I've yet to see one that doesn't work and I you know talk to people like well I have this very very rare very unique autoimmune disease do you know anything about it I'm like well I don't you know I haven't seen anything with that but this is this is how autoimmune issues tend to respond in general and either way you're going to help your health you know dramatically in every other other there are other things that cause problems or other things that cause disease it's not just the food we eat but that's a major burden of disease is from the food that we eat and so you know it's worth to try you're going to get a lot healthier anyway and you know and it could very well be exactly what's going to address your autoimmune issues like so many other autoimmune issues and so I get people telling me this constantly that you know they're getting you know biopsies of their of their colon after a few months and they have no trace of are also colitis they have no trace of their disease left the rumor arthritis they have they've come off all their medications they don't have any flareups anymore they've lost you know 80 to 100 pounds or more um fibromyalgia patients that's one that was very interesting because I've had a number of people say that they've had fibromyalgia for 20 years and all of a sudden they go on Carnivore for four months and it's gone and they're off fibromyalgia what what is that well that was the one we were talking about before pain that pain one and yeah the thing is I've always had I've always had a bit of a sympathy for for these diagnoses because a lot of times these these diagnosis of exclusion uh are people question on whether or not it's real and they question whether or not this person is just lying and just wants to get medications and long-term opiates or something like that which I think is you know pretty poor mindset I think I'm sure there's there people out there there's obvious there are drug Seekers out there that's a fact but you know when you when you have people in in debilitating pain to the point that they they really can't function you know something's going on I mean just because you don't know what's going on doesn't mean that it's not going on and so just sort of dismissing that and say like I bet they're faking it or something like that it's real for them that doesn't help anybody you know especially yourself it's just it's just a bad mindset to be in and you know and so it's great you know and and so this this is at least you know a good example of people that weren't making that uh that didn't want to be on medication long term in fact we very happy about getting off their medication because they've been taking these things and they those things have side effects then all of a sudden they're out of pain and they're like oh I don't have to take this crap anymore and they're so happy and they're so grateful and so that's always that's always really good to see because you know even if you're not crippled and you have the use of your body if you're just in constant pain all the time it it really sucks and i' I've been in that situation with various injuries where I was just in absolute agony all the time and thankfully these were injuries these weren't permanent conditions and so I healed and you know but if I was if I was constantly in that like I mean that would that just really suck and so I I really feel for these people and who have to deal with that and I'm really really happy to see that that this this issue that we here before didn't know what the hell it was what the hell was causing it is just going away and so that just plays into this this stuff is causing you know an immune response and INF inflammatory process that's just sticking on all these different areas of people's body and just making a light up and these people are just in agony all the time and then just stop eating that it just goes away it's amazing so those I think you kind of talked about it before those little spots on people's bodies that might be lighting up is that something that needs to prepair maybe from an injury or something oh you know maybe you but you know sometimes sometimes you have damage done you can have you can have injuries old injuries oh yeah that are just that are just painful but you could you could have other things and it could be glomming on to certain areas for other reasons you know it could be that that these people that have um that have fibromyalgia it's just just for some reason this this is sticking to a lot of areas in their body whether or not they have injuries but you can certainly have people that have chronic pain from an injury and if you have a major injury at some point there's a risk of that becoming a chronic pain issue and there are different sort of risk factors with that but you some people just you know have an injury they break their leg and that leg hurts for the rest of their life even though it's completely healed then you look at on X-rays and CT scans and it's completely healed you're like well this shouldn't hurt yeah but it does so that could be you know some of it as well I'm sure those those patients if they get rid of all these plants and everything you know I'd be willing to bet that that chronic pain goes away with it yeah um to ask a question I've been wanting to ask you for a while um and it's about migraines you you mentioned before about the um inflammation caused by or Omega 6 is a kind of like a AIT a strong indication of inflammation I've I've had migraines or suffered from migraines for like 13 or 14 years um so pretty much half my life and um I never knew what it was and I would always sort of track back okay what did I eat I always thought it was something to do with food um so I would look back what did I eat what did I eat and I could never work it out Le since learning about the oxidative stress from um seed and vegetable oils I've started to think and notice that yeah it is caused from eating vegetable and Seed oils uh particularly as like they often be triggered if um if I go to like an Asian restaurant um like for example went out for Tha food and like mainly ate meat but clearly some of the meat was cooked in really cheap vegetable oils because the next morning I woke up and I was like oh here we go um and then just to add one point to that what I did was I loaded up on as much omega3 as I could um this was just sort of me self diagnosing not sure if it worked but I went and ate a heap of eggs um have you uh have you got any thoughts on migraines and mega6 um well just just migraines and diet in general certainly there're very very strong links there were studies going back I don't know 90 years 100 years something like that like the 1920s that had had used ketogenic diet to you know dramatically improve people's lot and there was a study where they they sort of went through and they did an experiment where they sort of changed these people's diet you know specifically you know from a from a standard Western diet which is very different than today it wasn't nearly as many carbohydrates or vegetables it was still still mostly meat and then they just dropped the carbohydrates and just eating the meat and and the vegetables or whatever but probably you primarily meat and 90% of migraine sufferers in this study had complete resolution of their migrains and the remaining 10% had a significant Improvement so not everyone was cured entirely but everyone had had a serious benefit to that and you know we you know is in in neurosurgery we get called in for migraines when you know the neurologists sort of run out of options and sometimes that you can do is called an occipital nerve decompression where you go up through the back of the scalp and you can you can sort of you use sort of blunt dissection to sort of separate off the tissue from the nerves that coming up over the back of the scalp and this is or or just actually just divide the nerves and you have this sort of you know um dull patch that that's just numb over your over the back of your head for a while forever actually and H so uh but yeah but it actually it actually helps you know and so you know what does this mean well it can mean a lot of things but if if you're you're decompressing this and you're affecting this nerve or you're even cutting this nerve well it could be that this nerve is is experiencing more of an inflammatory process and it's becoming more affected by that and that's giving you the symptoms of a migraine and when you reduce the inflammation in your diet and in your body now that inflammation isn't sticking onto that nerve and pissing it off and causing you to have a migraine yeah yep I'll be avoiding seed and vegetable oils for the rest of my life and also you know inflammatory carbs as much as I can um yeah interesting yeah it's actually it's a massive relief for me realizing that it's there a trigger point um it's made life a lot easier that's for sure yeah well I mean there there's obviously a lot of things that can trigger migraines and and a lot of them are food related food drink alcohol related so what does that mean that means that that there's there are things in there there are factors in there that are causing some sort of process to precipitate a migraine or some sort of pain response okay so there are triggers that we know of big big clear ones you avoid these things but that doesn't mean that's all of them and that's just those are just the ones that we' we've strongly identifi but when you just go into a ketogenic diet you're eliminating a lot of these things as well most of this stuff goes away so what does that mean you're eliminating out these little factors now you're eliminating out all carbohydrates grains seeds sugars alcohol and and you're getting even better okay so there's a lot of things that can precipitate a migraine so doing the diet from an elimination standpoint just eliminating out eliminating out eliminating out more and more things that could could potentially cause harm and get down to the the root which is just meat you know you're you're going to have have a better time because you you you have definitely eliminated out anything that's going to precipitate a migraine from from a food standpoint obviously you have other things that trigger these problems but from a food standpoint now you've eliminated these things now maybe you try certain things back in you go oh no no can't do that that that gives me a big problem if you want to if you want to add things back in I don't I don't I don't care to do that I don't get migraines I didn't I didn't have very poor health before all this I just like feeling my best I just like always feeling my best and always being you know performing at my best and and that's how I prefer to live and so you know eating eating different things I've never really cared to add anything back in there's nothing that I've I've liked the taste of better than my health and how I feel so but if people want to do that they can and just be mindful of that if you're doing this from an elimination approach like with autoimmune or with migraines or whatever you have MS that's another one that that is is significantly helped by a carnivore diet multiple sclerosis which is a nasty disease um when you eliminate these things out if you're eliminating these things out you're like okay now I feel good and I'm just on meat like M Peterson did and then she's just said oh this is stupid I I clearly I can eat salads salads are good for you she ate one salad She Bang had a big uh rumor arthritis flare up so now she knows she can't do that and everything every time she tries something back in she flares up and so she's like I can't I can't do this even if I I want to which is sounds like you know maybe she she does and Jordan Peterson you know probably does but you know they they value their health more than they value the the the visceral experience of eating these food and I I certainly am in that same camp and I I don't even have as big of a response to these things as as they would you know but it's too much for me yeah totally it's just not worth it yeah um arthritis is is arthritis caused by um like unavoidable wear and tear or injury um or is like chronic inflation kind of a contributing factor to arthritis um yeah yeah well you you can you can certainly have damage you can you can mistreat your joints and that can cause inappropriate wear and tear yeah and eventually arthritis or you can have injuries that damage the cartilage as well you can do what I did which is you know muai kickboxing and and you're just doing knee strikes on hard objects and that just sort of bangs these things clatters them together when they're not supposed to do that and you get these little micro cracks and those micro cracks all of a sudden are a point of friction now and they just sort of wear and wear and wear and wear and they wear and they wear out however you know we look at we look at the fossil record in many areas they you know they didn't have signs of arthritis even even you know the old you the full adults you can't really gr you can't really age a skeleton past a certain point you can just say this is a full- grown adult it's fully developed but you don't necessarily know too much more about that unless you know there's other s maybe they you know maybe they were eating the wrong thing getting osis and arthritis and all that sort of crap and then you sort of guess like oh okay well maybe that but we didn't really see those skeletons prior to the Agricultural Revolution you any any full-grown adult they had you know big Jaws straight teeth no cavities very healthy bones on average six fo4 for male adult males and they didn't they didn't really have arthritis we could tell I mean sometimes you don't have it's not a good enough specimen to to be able to tell but by and large you know we could tell this so there are native populations as well you know such as the msai that they don't get arthritis really or they have they have people in their tribe that intermix with Western cultures and so they would go to business they so they'd be trading for the on on behalf of the tribe and so they're trading stuff and and buying other things and you know they maybe go to lunches and dinners and they're having sweets and candies or maybe drinking alcohol every now and then every now and then and most of the time they're not doing that they're the ones that get arthritis of the ones who get sick I mean these are these are sort of anecdotal just stories that that these guys tell but it's interesting and they talk about how like you know one guy in particular I was reading an article that this guy who you know Messi you know tribesman was talking about it he's like yeah you know when you don't eat just just meat and uh and blood and and milk now you get problems you know he said his dad was one of these traders that that uh that went in and traded with people and ate sweets and eight you whatever and he you know developed arthritis when he was really young like in his 80s and he was in a lot of pain and you know he died young like you know he died very early like in his like you know 90s or whatever and and he was and he suffered with with arthritis and pains in his joint so he said that that's not normal you know normally that that doesn't happen and so yeah absolutely I think that the inflammation is causing you know more damage or maybe a weakening of the cartilage so that the wear that you put on it causes causes damage as opposed to being being absorbed and accepted by it yeah totally okay thanks that um I suppose Z one one of the key themes that we often talk about is if you've if you've got a problem and you're considering say medication surgery give carnivore a go first um and I feel like that really applies to people who might be thinking about joint Replacements um or who might have kind of like chronic back pain and considering back surgery as well like you know think about what might be possible if you even if you did 30 days 30 days or 60 days of um of strict Carnival reduce that inflammation and you you know your whole body will get healthier but that specific pain might goal yeah absolutely and I I have seen it firsthand in myself and in my family members like my mom who had both her knees replaced you know they moved houses from our my childhood home that they were in for 25 years to a house that didn't have stairs so she didn't have to go up and downstairs because she just couldn't hack it and then she got her knees replaced and she was thinking about getting her hips done after this and then and her hands were very very painful she loves reading books she just reads reads reads all the time but her hands hurt so much she can't really hold book and and hold pages and turn them so now she uses a Kindle she has to and her hands are actually um you can see the effects on the joints there they're causing you know visible damage to the joints now she doesn't even need to take Ibuprofen she doesn't she's not in any pain really not to speak of not to limit her and so and before her hands were just you know getting to the point of being crippled and and causing so much pain now she just uses them just normal hands that she doesn't have any hip pain she doesn't have any back pain right that's fantastic yeah and and you I have certainly uh get tons and tons and tons of of people telling me that this is their experience as well and it certainly makes sense because you're reducing the inflammation you're reducing the pain you're reducing uh the inappropriate response responses from your immune system when you eat properly and I should say just really quickly that uh while this eating naturally can prevent arthritis it it's it's likely that it can't reverse it you we don't have any proof one way or the other but cartilage isn't is avascular it doesn't really have a blood supply can repair itself no probably not no I wish it I wish it could but because you I could I could use that for mine but no it's it's it's very unlikely that this stuff would is going to grow back once it starts to break down it has a rough surface it's really just going to keep getting broken down it's going to keep breaking down and and keep going in that direction it's not it's almost certainly not going to repair now they're doing other things with with different sorts of you know glues and patches or or articular card surface Replacements or they're trying things with stem cells with don't have any evidence for one way or the other yet they just don't have evidence yet and they're charging an arm and a leg for but you know the evidence just isn't there yet okay maybe maybe it'll come it's it's very promising and and you know as soon as that you know you get a big study showing you know that's welld designed and and showing good results like I'm going in to try it you know but at the moment you know it's just you know it's not really it doesn't really have a lot of strong evidence supporting it but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work it just means that we don't have enough evidence yet and so it's just something that's a work in progress and but at the moment yeah no I don't I don't think that Carnival D is going to going to reverse the damage or you know complet completely repair it for for arthritis but the arthritis you have and the pain that you have and the the experience of that pain will absolutely improve dramatically you know I'm I'm bone on bone Pella yeah on my on my on both patellas fine I don't even think about it like it'll it'll if I'm I'm doing something or doing like deep squats or something like that like yeah I mean like I'll feel it but it's not like it doesn't stop me from doing anything it's just uncomfortable somewhat sometimes right but it shouldn't be it should be very very painful because that's that's how that works if it um yeah if it does start to flare up I'll get uncomfortable reach out to Patrick his knees over toes guy on Instagram yeah really yeah really good dude and his exercises focus on blood flow so it's interesting you mentioned that about the cartilage and repairing the knee because if you want to repair anything you need to pump a shitload of blood through that spot right true um and he's got some really simple short range movements for just jamming that blood flow blood flow yeah yeah he's he's actually someone I want I wanted to look into uh he's carniv too pretty much I was nice yeah he he eat he eats fruit fruit for dessert but he has all meat lunch all meat dinner yeah nice yeah how do you get into that was anybody influenced him or or um he went like it sort of went uh like Joe Rogan and um and sha and Shawn Baker and then um Ben's really good friends with a guy Kagan Smith who I'll connect you with as well and Kagan did Carnival like four years ago um and then got he coaches Pro rugby players actually and he got a lot of the pro rugby players onto it and yeah Ben Ben was just like and Ben's really jacked now um but used to be like a when he was 920 he just looks like an accountant basically but now he's um he's really jacked carnivore and yeah train trains the house down that's awesome where what does he train out of like what uh what team he's from Miami oh so he's from Florida um okay so yeah he's uh he's got like a home gym set up a really good basketballer um but now focuses on training people online awesome that's really cool yeah very interesting yeah my my sort of issue is that it it sort of flakes off bits of cartilage from that area and that gets in the rest of the knee and just sort of gums it up and so I have to get that all vacuumed out but as soon as I do that I'm yeah I want to do like a a big proper rehab with uh something like that and you know with me you sort of damage is done I don't you know the cartilage is gone like I I don't know if it's going to regrow maybe I don't know that' be great but yeah it's worth a try anyway either way when you stren when when you strengthen up the joint you you protect the joint and you experience less pain in that joint and so that's another uh piece of the puzzle is that you you want to exercise you when you where you you are in pain or especially a painful joint you want to increase your activity level not reduce it because when you reduce it the muscle's atrophy and they don't support the joint as well and the pain gets worse so in fact what you want to do is you want to try to push through the pain obviously you don't want to hurt yourself but you want to do something more and strengthen those muscles in that joint and then that will actually reduce your pain sort of it's it's sort of you know paradoxical but it actually works and so you combine that with the dietary changes and you know people will get very very good results totally yeah I love it man um all right before before we sign out uh just going to quickly mention Anthony Anthony and I have an opportunity for a select group of people to get some support with Carnival um it's a 30-day Carnival challenge so if you join us you can be a message thread with Anthony and I if you ever have any questions you'll get an instant answer um and you'll also get a mountain of really useful Carnival information so you don't have to troll through the internet finding this that working out what's real and what's um you'll just get the good stuff so if you're interested DM Anthony or I and we can help yeah instant responses um times Z permitting you know like well there the thing is there's there's 40 people in the group at the moment uh and uh they're from all over the world and they've all had success on Carnival so one of them will get back to you um Anthony and I might take up to 12 hours yeah yeah and but yeah but that that's the good thing about these groups is that you know the people are different levels and the people at more advanced levels help help bring the people at the lower levels along and and people like what about this and they ask some questions early on questions someone say oh yeah I went through that you know you know do it like this and this would really help and so that's that's very good you know building that sort of community support system is really helpful for people I find totally um all right Anthony thanks so much for the chat U looking forward to speaking next time yeah wor man looking forward to it