Hard Facts on How Diet and Nutrition Affect Your Health | Dr Ken Berry

hello everyone this is uh dr anthony chafee i'm here today with a very special guest dr ken berry who is a personal favorite of mine someone that i've been uh watching myself for the last several years i'm sure most of you are familiar with as well so i'm very excited to to be able to speak with him today dr barry thank you so much for being here my pleasure doc good to talk to you thank you you too um for those of uh uh uh out there that aren't familiar with you uh which i don't think there are too many probably uh can you tell us a bit about yourself and and uh and what you're doing yeah i'm a family physician i've been practicing family medicine for over 20 years and about four or five years ago my wife said you know you should start a youtube channel and so i i laughed at that initially and then finally i said fine whatever i'll do it and it's kind of uh grown a little bit since then i used to be morbidly obese which we now call severely obese because the word morbid was sounded a bit too judgmental so we're changing that terminology uh i was pre-diabetic at a long list of chronic inflammatory medical conditions i was miserable every day and so in my journey to fix my own health i kind of stumbled upon the same proper human diet that you and others are kind of rediscovering all at the same time all around the world that if you eat a very low carbohydrate diet that's very nutrient dense that's full of ancestrally appropriate foods that definitely includes lots of fatty meat and eggs with the yolk you're gonna you're you're gonna improve your health and so i i rediscovered that in my own way just as you have and many other people have and i think that uh this is a worldwide movement of people saying you know i'm i'm done i'm sick and tired of listening to coca-cola and pepsi and mandalas and and craft heinz and kellogg's i'm sick of listening to them i'm not going to get my nutrition advice from them anymore and i'm also not going to get my nutrition advice from fat doctors and fat dietitians i'm going to look for people on social media on the internet on youtube who look like they've got their together and have fixed their problems and i'm going to listen to what they say and i think that's a very common sense position for the layman to take because that's exactly what i would do if i were if my car wouldn't start yeah i would not take my car to a mechanic whose front yard was full of cars that would not start that right that's just a common sense country boy redneck way of looking at the world i would take my car to a mechanic whose cars were tip top and look like race cars and you know started immediately and ran really fast and got good gas mileage that's the guy would take my car to and i think that especially on twitter people get very triggered when i talk about fat doctors and fat dietitians but i feel like i have the liberty because i used to be a fat doctor so i kind of get to say that but they're like you can't judge someone's medical advice by their outward appearance i'm like well you know your outward appearance is a sign of inner metabolic health or lack thereof and if you can't fix your own damn self then how are you supposed to fix anybody else people seem to get that common sense message doc and so i think that's why it's becoming so popular yeah well i i think you're i think you're absolutely right and um you know people uh you know even if it's a do as i say not as i do sort of thing you know you get you know if it's if your advice is so good why aren't you following you know why aren't you listening to yourself and um you know so there's yeah it sounds like there's um uh you know just just right there you know you're not gonna you're not gonna really be uh uh too trustful and you shouldn't be and you know i think i think it's a very good uh point that if you if you your doctor is very healthy um you know that he might actually have something to say in regards to health yeah um so so you came across this uh obviously a number of years ago and and i believe you your your sort of progression you you uh uh went from like a paleo sort of keto uh centric idea and then and came more closer to to carnivore what what do you consider at this point a proper human diet so i'm actually working on a book by that name right now and i kind of describe it as a spectrum and i think it depends on a vast number of things it depends on your age your gender your current metabolic health your dna your ancestry your gut microbiome potentially all those things matter but i think that every human being by design is a low carbohydrate mammal and so uh under 100 total grams of carbs a day so if you're young and healthy and you're surfing three hours a day then maybe you can eat up to 100 grams uh total grams a day of carbohydrates but in the form of fruits berries vegetables nuts that's probably fine but as you become older more metabolically sicker you need to turn down what i call the carbohydrate knob and turn that down to 50 total grams 20 total grams 10 total grams as close to zero as you can get it and so for me i i fatten very easily as my friend gary taubs describes it and so if i if i were to eat 50 total grams a day of vegetables and fruits i would start to gain weight and my a1c would start to go up that that would just happen and i've tried that experiment several times so i know for a fact that that would happen with me so i have to keep as close to zero total grams of carbohydrates a day as possible and i'm pretty good about doing that and when i'm doing that i stay pretty healthy and stay fairly lean i think that a proper human diet is ancestrally appropriate and what let me be very specific about the time period i'm talking about because vegan and vegans and plant-based people they love to talk about something that happened in the late mesolithic or something and what they're talking wind up talking about is 2 000 years ago and it's like you're using a big paleo anthropological term to mean a couple hundred years ago right and so i'm talking specifically about a diet that human beings age longer more than 15 000 years ago because there was some catastrophic event that happened on planet earth about 12 13 000 years ago that along with our hunting pressure pretty much decimated the megafauna all around the world multiple different locations paleoanthropological research made that very clear and so the modern fauna that we have now to hunt is much leaner much less humongous than the stuff that we had to hunt before and so we basically were forced to begin farming and so you can't come at me and say well that that frozen iceman guy in italy they found some grains in his stomach that was 5000 years ago yes they did that's right that was after the catastrophe we were basically moments from starving to death on any given day because all the the huge uh you know school bus size megafauna that we used to hunt at our pleasure it was no longer in existence and so it must be nutrient dense it must be ancestrally appropriate it must be low carbohydrate by design it must be uninflammatory by definition right if you're eating a diet that causes inflammation in your gut in your joints and your skin in your mental health that's obviously that can't be a proper human diet for you it may be for someone else maybe they can eat all of those plants maybe they can eat the phytates and the oxalates and the lectins and that doesn't bother them and that's fine that can be part of their carbohydrate intake each day on their proper human diet but for some of us and you probably have talked to a few people if it's anything outside of of ruminant animal flesh and salt and water they're going to have some degree of inflammation even if they're eating other animals and so i think a proper human diet by definition is uninflammatory it does not introduce or cause chronic inappropriate inflammation in the human body and that's just some of the kind of foundational principles that i've built this concept of a proper human diet on yeah and yeah and and to your point you know i spoke to a lot of people with autoimmune issues and you know they even have problems even with uh actual meat so even even like you know pork and chicken might set them off i think it's probably more to do with probably what the pig and the chicken are eating and that might be you know then then pass on and then but but also like egg whites as well and dairy will certainly uh cause problems especially early on um but i think that quite a lot of people seem to to heal and recover and after a certain period of time they can seem to tolerate these things a bit more but in sort of the acute phase when they're healing you know from like a crohn's or or ulcerative colitis they they seem to be a bit more sensitive have you have you noticed something like that as well oh absolutely yeah and again it varies there's a spectrum of a proper human diet there's not just one answer for every human on the planet and so the question becomes is pork and chicken is it inherently inflammatory to some people or is it the current diet of the pig and the chicken that leads to since they're monogas right they only have one one stomach with no they don't have the fermentation ability of ruminants maybe that makes their meat more inflammatory if they're eating a species inappropriate diet then another question becomes if someone with an autoimmune condition who reacts to pork and chicken or does is that for life or after a few months or a few years of letting their metabolism heal and letting their immune system basically calm down and stop freaking out over stuff it shouldn't be freaking out over will it stop attacking its its own self and then they can eat pork and chicken again so if there's and so that's why i encourage everyone to have some degree of self-experimentation yeah with food now i don't want you to be experimenting with illicit drugs right i don't want you to be experimenting with extreme rock climbing or skydiving i want you to experiment with food i don't think that's too much to ask of the average person right although a lot of a lot of the experts on twitter say you can't have these people doing all these experiments it's like well they're literally it's chicken and pork and beef yeah i don't think i don't think anything's going to blow up if you do an experiment like that in 30 or 90 days but yeah the autoimmune community there they benefit better from a proper human diet very often towards the carnivore spectrum just it's amazing it's it's virtually miraculous the improvement that they get not only in mental health but in you know skin gut joints in other ways and it and to them it feels miraculous but i always have to remind them no it's just physiology when you honor your human physiology your body starts to heal because the baseline setting for human health is good vibrant health you only muck that up if you're putting things in the system that shouldn't be there yeah yeah absolutely yeah that's what that's one thing that that people notice as well that i've spoken to like they just start like just aging backwards you know and just they just physically look so much younger skin gets better their hair gets better and uh and they they obviously feel a lot better as well and i i've certainly noticed that you know when when i was doing this because i've sort of been you know off and on with this um you know it's been like five year chunk now that i've been you know just a pure carnivore and then in my early 20s so you know 20 years ago i was i did it again and it sort of slipped off because it was such a huge plant push uh you know that just you know when um you know dr fuhrman's book came out with the gomes diet it was just like oh you have to eat these things and they made a very good cell on these and uh and i sort of didn't really buy it just because you know when i took cancer biology and botany i was just learning just all these different you know toxic chemicals that were in plants and there was just okay well there's a couple things that are good i was like yeah but it doesn't really does that offset all the things that are bad and so it never really got me but it got me enough to sort of slip off track uh for a number of years you know for you know you know i don't know seven ten years and then i and then i you know came back on to it uh thankfully so and then literally just getting rid of um you know vegetables you know i was eating a lot of you know spinach kale and broccoli and then some meat and then when i just dropped that and just started upping the meat you know things just changed drastically and i was quite surprised that just just how much of a difference that it made yeah yeah so many people hear that and you're exactly right the plant-based community currently they have some of the larger social media platforms pretty much in their pocket they all believe in a plant-based diet is going to save your health and save the health of the planet and i think that there are multiple errors in in both of those lines of reasoning uh but you know people like dr fuhrman talk about phytonutrients and they talk about fiber and how it's essential and this and this and then so uh that's that's why i made one of the the foundational principles of a proper human diet humans have been eating it for more than 15 000 years and it is nutrient dense and it is uninflammatory right and so then i ask people every day at least once on social media i asked somebody who believes in a plant-based diet who are touting the phytonutrients i say well which phytonutrient is essential and what is the amount that you you you're required to get each day and in in nutrition the word essential means something specific it means that we need it we must have it but we can't make it yeah and so that that's what essential means and the they're always at a loss like first of all how dare you ask such a question and secondly i'm not sure and then i have to help them out and say well there's not a single essential phytonutrient none zero even though that's all you hear about and then again with fiber how much fiber is essential for human life each and every day and they're like well i don't know 30 grams i'm like no zero grams you don't if you never ate fiber again not only would you not die but you would probably wind up looking much more like dr chafee and i and feeling like us and doing the the kind of things that we do at our age that you don't see the average person that age doing that's what happens when you stop trying to get as many phytonutrients aka phytochemicals as you can and trying to maximize your fiber intake just eat meat and eggs with yolk and go outside and play that is the secret to life if you want to add some veg if you want to add a few nuts a few berries i think that's fine for most people uh not all of us though and and then that's it eat until you're comfortably stuck go outside and play the end yeah absolutely i wholeheartedly agree with that and um yeah that's great um so that that sort of just brings up uh you know fiber this is this is something that peop people just push push push you say you have to have fibers that you're you're not going to be able to run your bowels properly you're going to get cancer you're going to get uh all sorts of different uh just you know organ dysfunction you know in your gi tract what is what is the veracity of this is there any evidence to suggest whatsoever that we we actually need any amount of fiber i've actually researched this quite a bit because you know there are some very legitimate healthcare authorities out there who talk about fiber as if it is biblical like you can't even argue with this or you need to go live on the outskirts of the village and just be an outcast because you don't make good sense and so i looked into this and basically it all originated back a few decades back with a very brilliant doctor who did a lot of good medical research dr burkett and he actually uh named a few uh different uh tumors and did some really good medical work but he was in africa studying cancer and he noticed that people in africa ate a high fiber diet and they made ginormous amounts of fecal matter every day and he also noticed that they had a very low rate of colon cancer and so he thought hmm have gigantic poops and and you eat lots of plants which is full of full of fiber and they don't have any colon cancer but he obviously didn't think well these people are eating an ancestrally appropriate diet that they've been eating for thousands of years that's not highly processed not full of grains and so yeah they're you know they're they're going to be have a low level of inflammation in a low level of cancer and so he basically said eat a lot of fiber poop a lot in you and you're you're gonna you know have a clean colon and not have cancer and that became the mantra of the entire plant-based movement back then even before it was considered plant-based and that's where it came from literally so there has not been a single uh single or double blinded controlled study or just a controlled study the there hasn't been a single placebo control study that proves that shows causation that the more fiber you eat the less cancer you have the only thing they have is observational epidemiological research that shows a possible association between eating more fiber and lower rates of colon cancer or the converse eating less fiber and having a higher rate of colon cancer they show a possible weak association that is literally the state of the art of research about fiber and colon cancer and so a lot of people when i first say that they're like that can't be right because my doctor my doctor's behemoths like by god you must eat fiber and my doctor is very rational and smart my doctor would not get that emotional about fiber unless there were convincing research that fiber was essential and i'm like well i'm sorry but your doctor although well-meaning and a good fellow is currently ignorant on this fact and i'm happy to help educate him or her so that they'll stop saying stupid things i mean indeed that's why i wrote my book was to help doctors stop saying stupid thing that that basically hurt the profession the practice of medicine when you say stupid and then it turns out that it's obviously stupid and people are like okay well if you're wrong about that doctor what else are you wrong about yeah so healthcare providers need to be very careful with their language they need to be very careful what they say is essential what they say is mandatory what they say you must do because if not the the entire practice of medicine is just going to become a farce that the average person they're going to be going back to the witch doctor because they can't trust the medical doctor and so a lot of doctors looked at my book as an attack on medicine but really it's my attempt to save medicine from itself from saying the stupid things the ignorant things like uh phyto you must eat lots of phytonutrients and you must eat lots of fiber neither of which have been proven to be true yet after decades of trying yeah and um yeah and and and i encourage anyone who hasn't read your book to read it is you know lies my doctor told me which i've read and i really i absolutely really loved it um i noticed when i first started you know digging down this rabbit hole in nutrition exactly the same thing that we just we had so many things that we were taught in medical school and beyond uh or even in just just in in undergrad and just just our everyone knows sorts of uh you know school everyone knows uh that are just based on absolutely nothing uh or maybe even just supposition they think that okay well well you know uh this is this sounds good this this you know fits physiologically with the you know what we see you know so this is this is probably what it what it is and then it just gets repeated like this is the best guess that we have but because it gets repeated and repeated and repeated people forget the origins that it is just a guess and and all of a sudden it's just showing up in uh textbooks and physiology physiology uh handouts and and all of a sudden you know we we take this as gospel and we have no studies and we have no actual hard evidence uh to suggest these things actually are are the case i found so many of those things uh yes yeah and and one of the huge biggest problems with that is that it discourages research in areas that could be very fruitful very productive and so what if a young researcher were to go to the university of of of sydney and say to the chairman and say hey you know i really feel like that eating lots of fatty meat is really good for the human colon i really think that that for a lot of people especially with crohn's disease ulcerative colitis irritable bowel i feel like it would help their symptoms can you imagine the reaction of the chairman of the department to this young researcher i mean he might actually get hands physically put on him and thrown out of the office and so when when something becomes dogma when he becomes pseudo-religious like that it just shuts down meaningful research that that young researchers could absolutely be doing right now to prove oh you got ibs you got crohn's you got ulcerative colitis 100 you need to be a carnivore okay that's going to help your symptoms quicker than anything it's better than any fda approved medication you're going to have symptom resolution within days if not weeks after you start a carnivore diet maybe ruin it only maybe not but nobody can do that research first of all because there's not an fda approved patented drug that'll ever come from that research so no department head really wants to spend the department's money on research it's not going to result in a patent that could potentially make millions or billions of dollars yeah and also it goes against the religious dogma that you've got to eat lots of plants with fiber and phytonutrients so all these young researchers are like well i guess i'll just start a youtube channel then since i can't do any meaningful research and indeed that's what many of them are doing yeah you know i i i actually ran into something like that uh personally when i was when i first came to australia and you know i've been looking at these things and i've been i've been seeing these studies uh with elemental diet and a fasting mimicking diet and showing that this has better efficacy in in treating uh acute flare-ups of crohn's and ulcerative colitis and and maintaining uh you know flare-up free existence than than steroids and um and you know so i i knew all this and i i would have you know people talk to me in the hospital and i was sort of rotating through a general surgery rotation and you know i was seeing this consult and they you know they asked me to see this person to see if uh you know we would offer surgery for uh this lady who had crohn's and i was talking to her and she was just at me she was very worried about surgery as she should be and um you know and with crohn's you know if you're going down the surgery pathway i mean you you just you can keep chasing your tail and keep cutting out bits and bits and bits and bits and bits until you know someone is left with uh you know very very tattered uh remains of their gi um and so she was just saying she was very worried about this she really wanted to avoid surgery but they sort of come to the end of their of their conservative management and you know i just said well actually you know there there are you know there are other things that you can do you know with diet and i just i didn't say like this this will work for you there's 100 or anything like that i just said hey here are some resources you can take a look at these yourself and see what you think and then and make a decision you know you don't you don't have to get surgery it is your body you can make this choice um one of the the gastroenterology uh residents like overheard this and instead of like you know talking to me about it and seeing what the hell i was even on about he went and ran to his boss his boss did the same thing didn't didn't bother checking with me and talking with me and saying what are you even talking about you know is there any evidence for that he went straight to my head of department he was saying like we're going to report this guy to the medical board you know i was just like and and you know they had at least known me long enough and known that i knew what i was talking about they said well why don't we just talk to him first why don't we just see if there's like a basis for this you know and it's just like i'm just pulled all this stuff out and it was just like you know you this is your field and i know more about this than you why is that why don't you know these studies why don't you know uh that uh that there actually is evidence that exists that they can have people avoid horrific medications and and and just butchering themselves you know and it's just like and and i actually kind of made a not so veiled threat it was just like if you you want to really do that like i'm just going to be going right to the same medical board and you know asking why is it that you don't know anything in your own field like you're supposed to be an expert and you're costing the medical assistant as a public health care system here in australia you're costing them tens of thousands of dollars of medication now now you want uh you know spend another 50 grand on on surgery that's not necessary like so you're you know uh you're charging the system uh and doing performing medical uh you know treatments that these people just don't don't need so i mean that that's sort of the definition of malpractice you did something wrong and it causes harm you know what is surgery that's harm and uh and they don't need to do it and so they they sort of uh you know went away at that point but you know you're right i mean people get very very upset if you if you try to challenge the status quo yeah absolutely and you know a certain degree of that is appropriate and a certain degree that is expected but i don't think that you should there there i don't think that and tell me if you agree with this i don't think that a a medical professional should become emotionally upset if someone says well i understand doctor but i i'd prefer not to do that and so many many times early in my career i would say hey you know i think i'd be i was an emergency room doc and so i would be like look this has happened to you i feel like you need to do this and i would have country boy sometimes say uh look doc i'm not doing that and i would i would say okay well here's the risk of not doing it and here's the potential benefit for not doing it but if you don't want to do it just sign right here and then you are still buddies it's fine never did i get emotionally upset at a patient because they didn't do what i suggested they do because it's their one life yeah it's their one body why would i why am i so emotionally tied to a specific prescription medication that i'm gonna get upset with my patient get mad at them maybe curse at them because they're so damn dumb that they don't understand they need to take a statin how i don't get that at all and so i i was always happy if somebody said i don't really want to do that because i had people even back like in 2004 when i was a stat believer they'd be like yeah i don't know i read this newsletter i don't really want to take a step you know i'm like well here's here's what the aha says here's what the ada says and if you don't want to take it that's cool i don't care but i was never did i get upset with them emotionally and so i think that's a huge red flag for anybody out there if your doctor or your dietitian or your chiropractor or your naturopath if they get emotionally upset with you because you don't accept and submit to a specific line of therapy that's a huge red flag that either your doctor has mental illness or they they're being paid off or they feel like they're part of some tribe that you must be a part of or somehow it's just there's something weird something off about that when a doctor gets emotionally upset at you because you you you're like and respectfully so you're like no i understand dog but i'd rather not do that if a doctor gets mad at you when you say something like that you might need to find a new doctor yeah and it it uh also blows a bit of uh insecurity as well you know that this person has so much trouble uh you know maybe expressing themselves and maybe they they think that there's that they you know don't quite have a handle on it and they and it's like no one should challenge them and and they don't they don't you know know how to do exactly what you did say hey well look here's the evidence here's here's why i'm suggesting this this is what i think but you know you make your own decision they feel challenged and it's just you know because they don't neces may not feel secure in their own knowledge uh maybe that gets them a bit riled up you know maybe not in all cases but that that could certainly happen yeah yeah um so so that's sort of uh going back to what we were talking about before with with you know the the essential or unessential nature of fiber there are so many things that that we take as essential as well so you know carbohydrates being a classic example you know obviously anyone who's taken biochemistry knows that you know once we get into our what i would consider you might agree with me uh i consider our fasting metabolic state are actually our primary metabolic state i think this is actually when you know our heavy machinery comes to bear and this is you know what what humans living naturally would tend to be in as well and that and animals generally are in as well and so we make carbohydrates we make glycogen and so by by that definition carbohydrates are not exogenous carbohydrates are not essential um unfortunately a lot of people think they are essential and even even now you know uh people i don't i know you know dr saladino um and then there's other people such as uh you know cardinal aurelius who's a you know obviously a very popular carnivore advocate um and they they've since started saying that well actually you know uh carbide it's not only okay to eat carbohydrates but actually they're they're essential and and you can actually hurt yourself if uh you don't eat them what were your thoughts on that well i actually i had and have a great deal of respect for both of those guys and i've i've looked into their arguments a lot so i've spent way too many hours looking into this just ask my wife nisha she'll tell you but it's i'm i come to the end of the road and i'm like okay did i miss the evidence because i i'm i'm to the end of the studies and i haven't seen any compelling evidence not you know some epidemiological study done in uh colombia on four people that might show a possible association between this and that i'm talking about causation there's none there's nothing and so i think you touched on a very important topic the first two years of medical school we were taught biochemistry and cell and molecular biology and physiology and then pathophysiology and these are these things that were basically laid out back in the 20s and 30s and 40s these are set in stone these are known this is not up for debate and so but people love to gloss over that you know make your a or your b in in physiology biochemistry and then third and fourth year medical school now you can focus on pharmaceuticals because that's that's the sexy thing right or surgery drugs or surgery that's the sexy thing to talk about in in medical school in residency and beyond but they forget and i think i think uh my good friend paul saladino and my good friend carnivores i think they've forgotten that there are textbooks about physiology and biochemistry this is not up for debate either carbohydrates are essential or they are nice and this is these these have been laid out we are perfectly capable of making all the glucose that every cell in our body might need and therefore there is no essential carbohydrate just as there is no essential vital nutrient or essential fiber um and i've i've talked to both of these guys kind of privately because i'm not trying to denigrate anybody i'm not trying to push a guy down to pick myself up that's not how i do things and i think these guys both mean well i think that they believe what they're saying uh and and which you know and i think for a subset of the human population with their espousing would work okay so like i said earlier if somebody was surfing for three hours a day and working out for another hour and then doing martial arts for an hour you could probably eat 100 grams of fruit uh carbohydrates and fruit a day and you'd probably be fine and you could still see your your six-pack not your apac but what about the millions and millions and millions of people probably close to a billion people on the planet who are overweight or obese or severely obese or in certain populations like the asian and the indian population not obese but they do have central adiposity and they have severe hyperinsulinemia and and pre-diabetes are type 2 diabetes your your advice to eat all this fruits it's going to be completely misleading for this billion people who have metabolic disease who don't surf three hours a day and spend another two or three hours a day you know doing whatever you do as far as physical activity and they're never going to do that they'll just tell you straight up and like you know if i were to have to go to the gym and work out two hours a day i would be like you know what i got i'm not doing that but if it involves a chainsaw in my my 40 acres here then i'm 100 let's go do that and i think everybody's got things they love and things they hate and that's fine and i don't if you anybody who says oh you've got to join the gym if you want to get healthy i think that's idiotic yeah there's there's a million ways to go outside and play and doesn't have to involve a gym membership it doesn't have to involve three hours of surfing and so if somebody is just up front saying look i'm not gonna exercise four hours a day i'm never gonna do that then these that person by definition has to eat a diet that's more nutrient dense so they're getting all the amino acids fatty acids vitamins and minerals and they have to eat by definition a diet that's lower in carbohydrates which and so we've only got three macronutrients to play around with right you got you got fats you got protein you got carbs and so if you say okay you got to cut the carbs then you're going to have to either starve to death or increase one of the other macros yeah and so that's why the more metabolically ill someone is with with metabolic syndrome or hyperinsulinemia as you cut down the total carbohydrates by definition you're cut you're increasing the protein in the fat have to be or you're telling this person to semi-starve themselves with calorie restriction for the rest of your life that that's literally your two options yeah and nobody wants to starve for the rest of their life that's why weight watchers has been in business since 1969 and we still have an obesity epidemic is because semi starvation is ignorant it doesn't work long term no human no mammal can starve themselves for the rest of their life that it'd be like okay chafee hold your breath good okay now hold it for the rest of your life you'll be like what that's literally the the logic of telling someone to semi-starve themselves for the rest of their life and so uh people like my good friend saladino with as much activity as he does and his age and his dna and maybe his gut bacteria who knows all the things that wind up battering he can eat he can eat the the watermelon the papaya but if you start to tell the billion people with metabolic disease they can eat the papaya and the watermelon and the the the grapes that are this big around the modern fruits you're setting them up for kidney stones gallstones gout attacks worsening obesity worsening metabolic syndrome and ultimately a more painful early death and i'm not i'm not about that life yeah yeah and um you know i mean and and to to reiterate your point i'm certainly not trying to to uh you know denigrate her or come down on these guys uh either i i respect both of them very highly i really like their stuff i i think carnival release is hilarious i've always liked his stuff and um you know i don't know them personally but you know i i've always appreciated uh their content this is just something that we see in that and i speak to people and uh you know my patients and then you know people uh online they they always ask me because these are very influential people that that do have uh you know very very uh broad and and firm reach on people uh you know is are are we missing something you know what's going on and so i i you know i'm talking to these people and i just so it's just to really just to clear the air on this and not to not to sort of you know throw stones or anything but um i do notice that you know since uh uh you know dr saladino and and carnival aurelius came out saying this and carter willis was saying that i think like a year or so ago that he was not only eating carbs but he was he was getting 40 of his calories a day from just orange juice you know that he was saying that just fructose itself was was very like vital and that you would actually get you know thyroid dysfunction if you didn't get enough fructose which is which is news to me because i didn't actually know of any biochemical process in the body that actually required fructose at all and um yeah um and you know and and with you know the work of you know dr robert lustig you know out of ucsf you know really just showing a very very robust uh uh you know uh evidence to just show that that that fructose causes very you know uh serious harm in the body and you know like like these biochemical processes that we have in textbooks you know they've done that with fructose showing that it you know gets broken down by the liver into the same by-products as as alcohol it can cause the same damage uh via those by-products as alcohol and so you know i i've always looked at this as some of the strongest uh you know uh nutritional biochemical evidence that we've had and and so for that to be then say no no actually not only is this totally safe for you but it's essential uh you know concerned me and um and and i've seen the aftermath of this because i i you know since i've sort of spoken up about that um i don't know like 18 months ago when i was speaking with dr baker um i had i had people approach me and and message me and and just say hey you know actually i was you know and i was quite concerned because you know fructose being you know addictive by nature this can you know maybe some people like dr saladino can have a healthy active lifestyle and eat some of these things and be fine but then you know what about others who as you say don't have that lifestyle or or maybe have a much more problematic relationship with food and addiction with carbohydrates and sugar you know they a little bit of fruit and honey can turn into a lot of fruit and honey pretty quickly and that's exactly what these people came and spoke to me about and said you know they they started with a bit of fruit and honey then it became a lot more and then it became some more carbs and and within six months they were eating you know pizza and doughnuts on the couch they'd put on all the weight back on they became very very sick and and sort of undone all the all the good that they had previously done yeah and that's that's another huge danger that we have that you just touched on that i hadn't even addressed is the is the food addiction the carb addiction the sugar addiction uh if someone and and i am a sugar addict i can raise my hand and say that uh for decades i was just on the sugar and so when i first started this journey i you know i discovered paleo i read lauren cordain's book and i'm like boo yeah that makes a lot of sense uh and so i started doing that with all the yams and all the quinoa and all the agave nectar and i felt like i maybe got a little healthier but i didn't lose any damn weight at all and and i was eating strict paleo but it was too it was too high in carbohydrates right it wasn't nutrient dense enough it was still inflammatory and so it was closer to a proper human diet than the standard american diet but it still was not yet a proper human diet and so i kept researching and looking and that's my fear is that a lot of people with metabolic disease or with food addiction which i'm not even sure i believe in food addiction i believe in sugar and carb addiction definitely highly processed carb addiction uh but i i really feel like a lot of the eating disorders and food addictions basically come from somebody trying to feed this very ancient physiological system highly processed nutrient void modern food i think that's going to give you mental issues with food that's going to give you eating disorders that's going to give you binging disorders because your body's looking for a specific set of things from the food we eat it's looking for that and if you're not giving it what it's looking for then it's going to do it literally if you're starving an animal that animal will do anything to get to real species appropriate animal food it will it will chew off its own leg to get the real food to get the freedom to get the food freedom and humans are the exactly the same and that's why i think a lot of these weird things that have developed in the mental health space it's because you're basically either slowly poisoning your body and mind or not giving it the nutrient density that it needs or giving it the false lack of satiety signals or encouraging the false hunger signals all that stuff together mucked up is going to lead to eating disorders mental health disorders and and you know the food weirdness around food and whereas if you were eating an ancestrally appropriate nutrient dense low carbohydrate uninflammatory diet and that indeed uh there's a dietitian michelle hearn who had severe eating disorder severe anorexia and literally she's a carnivore now and has and and she says you know obviously i'm still me i still have the propensity but as long as i'm eating a a carnivore diet i don't have any of the symptoms i don't have any of the problems i don't have any of the pathology of that disease and this is this story has replicated itself now hundreds of thousands of times all around the world and so it kind of becomes maddening and farcical at some point when you're like you know you keep looking for the stampede of doctors to be like wow man this is crazy the results of this and you're like where are the where are the where are my brothers and sisters in medic medicine is there's like they're still over here yelling at somebody and pissed off because they wouldn't take their stat so it's kind of it's like okay whatever yeah well yeah and and you know so many people ask me it's just like why don't we why haven't people been saying this like why don't more people know this it's like yeah that's a very good question and and i think it's exactly uh what you were saying before is because there's no billion dollar drug to push behind it you know in fact this is probably going to clear off uh several billion dollar drugs off of the market and uh and and so you know there's the the the the you know financial drive is sort of in the against us unfortunately but i think that you know eventually the truth will out and i think it is exactly as you're saying because this is this people are having real results and they're and they are absolutely revolutionizing the their health and their well-being and i think that that's just it's only a matter of time before uh the rest of the world pick up a few years ago i i didn't really meet anybody who knew what a uh you know carnivore diet was they didn't know what the hell that was they thought i was absolutely out of my mind and uh you know now i you know i mentioned to people when they say i'm only eating meat i say well yeah i just do a strict carnivore diet they go oh you know my brother does that you know i know someone does and now they even know by name they know someone who does it so i think it's already starting to get that that grassroots uh movement behind it oh absolutely and i can't wait for it to reach that tipping point kind of that four or five percent which then uh on boards the next twenty percent i cannot wait for it to hit that and what i use the uber driver test that's the nation i've been using that test for years when i went to my first uh keto conference at ketocon i don't know three four years ago i asked every uber driver you heard about this crazy i'd be on my phone like have you heard of this keto diet you just eat bacon yeah and none of our uber drivers that year had heard of keto they're like no i don't know what you're talking about you eat bacon what so then every time we take an uber ride nisha is just like rolling her eyes because she knows i'm gonna do the thing and so now every single uber driver has at least heard of keto if not tried it or they've got an aunt who's doing it or they got a brother who tried it or they've read an article about it so it's it's it's it's very close to the tipping point and i consider the carnivore diet a subset of a ketogenic diet because if you're eating a carnivore diet you're going to be in some degree of ketosis for the majority of your day and you're going to get all the benefits of that fasting mimicking ketogenic diets even on a carnivore diet there are some out there you've probably seen who say oh carnivore's not keto and i'm like wait a minute let's go back to the physiology here let's go back and see what happens if you eat as close to zero grams of carbs a day as you possibly can you're going to be in ketosis most of the day and so yeah i can't wait because i'll tell you what's going to happen there's going to be multiple billion dollar pharmaceutical corporations who are going to go bankrupt yeah this when this hits the tipping point they're going to be several uh medical insurance billion dollar corporations that are going to go bankrupt they're going to be all kinds of big food manufacturers who are going to go bankrupt because everybody's going to be wise to their and they're not going to fall for it anymore they'll be like no no no i'll be having my bank index thank you very much and i'm not sure what's going to happen to the world economy when this because obviously we're going to build other you know businesses around this but i really feel like that that a proper human diet by design encourages local economies it encourages local organic gardeners it encourages local ranchers and i encourage everybody to vote with your dollars you know because even if you stop drinking regular coke and pepsi now you only drink pepsi zero or coke zero whatever the hell the latest marketing thing is you understand you're still voting for them with your dollars whether they're australian or american or canadian you're voting for coke or pepsi every time you buy that diet soft drink or you buy that candy bar you buy that whatever and so why don't you stop voting for them the huge multi-billion dollar corporation that doesn't give a about you or your family why don't you start voting with your dollars with the local gardener the local rancher the local farm farmers market they actually know you and and you know if if you fell in a ditch they would actually stop and pull you out of the ditch if your ass caught on fire they would actually piss on you and put it out right why not vote for those kind of people with your dollars instead of voting for these corporations who couldn't give a less whether you live or die and that i feel like people resonate with that when they hear it put like that they're like no i get it that makes a lot of sense i'm not yeah even though i don't think diet coke is the end of the world i don't think it destroys the benefits you're gonna get on a ketogenic diet it's probably less good than just drinking water uh but i don't think it's the end of the world but when it comes down to it who are you voting for with your dollars is that really who you want to support you want to be coca-cola and pepsi and mandela is sugar daddy sugar mama that's what you want to be come on support something that actually matters and that's actually going to help your friends and family yeah and and just build builds communities you know if you're if you're if you're doing everything local that that just grows you know the the structure and community structure around you um that that is that is a good point too because we we do we spend trillions of dollars a year treating uh diseases that i i don't even think are diseases and you know i think you would agree with me that these are these are uh you know just food borne uh issues that you know lack of proper you know species-appropriate nutrition and then all these these different sorts of toxins and problems that come with eating outside of our species-specific biologically appropriate uh diet and we and we have these problems that come with that you know uh dr lustig um in one of his uh uh books you know estimated that um that just uh you know that we spend 2.4 trillion dollars a year just treating the effects of sugar consumption fructose consumption just fructose you know not not even all the rest of the things uh you know that are problematic but just fructose and we spent and the sugar industry makes about 1.3 trillion dollars a year selling sugar so you know that's a lot of trillions and uh you know that that's that's the the entire federal budget of america every year that we spend on eating a bunch of you know crapload of nasty sugar and then you know the treating the medical uh ramifications thereof imagine that imagine just having another four and a half trillion dollars back in the economy going in directions that actually matter yeah we would be on jupiter by now you know the the amount of innovation in very very interesting and beneficial ways would be fantastic when we get all these big brain people that are that are that are creating you know de novo drugs with these massive super computers to address a problem that doesn't even need to exist if we eat the right thing and then you know taking that that know-how and that firepower and putting it in a direction that can actually benefit uh humanity and and paying them for it handsomely you know i'm all for that but but doing it in a direction that actually matters and actually makes a real difference uh for our society i think that that's something that would would uh you know not only just benefit the health of society but i mean just society in general if we were actually putting our money in a direction that was actually useful i just i just i don't even know what would happen but we would be in a very different place i think yeah i think that what you just said is very controversial and i think it probably borders on uh thought crime yeah and it really you know it's gonna be uh very disruptive to billion dollar corporations and that's why i feel like that uh you know there are certain voices out there that get shadow banned and get the throttle put on them because another what you just said is going to help every single human yeah who heard you say it every single human will benefit from what you said but not a single corporation will benefit from what you said especially the bigger the corporation the less they'll benefit from what you said and therefore uh you know sometimes our words fall and we only get to enjoy the echo but it doesn't really seem like it helped a lot as many people as it should have uh i've noticed just in the last couple of years my youtube videos that used to get way more traction there it's like yeah they still do pretty good but it's not like it was and i don't know what the cause of that is maybe i'm getting old and dumb and just not as entertaining but it's it's a little bit worrisome that all the huge corporations make their money off just the scenario that you described they don't make anything off of me buying meat from a local rancher and a few blueberries from a local gardener nobody makes a markup off that no you know google doesn't make any money big pharma doesn't make any money big food doesn't make any money nobody makes any money except just regular guys like you and me and it seems like that that that should be a very sexy thing to talk about but it seems that only you and i and a few others are interested in talking about it at all it's very worrisome but i'm not going to shut up and i suspect you're not going to shut up either no no no yeah definitely not and um you know i i uh i always knew that this this sort of line of thought would probably get me in into a lot of trouble you know you know professionally and um you know i'm all for it you know because i think that you know the medical profession i think i think has has you know gone to the left uh a little further than we than we need to and you know for the entire history of of medicine you know we've treated you know you know the same things you know like you know pregnancy and childbirth uh you know congenital and genetic uh you know issues um you know trauma and uh and then um uh like uh infectious you know infectious diseases and and then poisonings and toxins and that's really all we've we've done we've had these five main things and now that's like 15 of what we do and the rest of its chronic disease and that's almost everything that we do but you know i think that that that what really is is really just you know the fifth thing toxicity has just blown out of proportion because we're just getting absolutely poisoned they're just like you know the romans with lead pipes they had low-grade lead poisoning for generations they just thought well this is just how you age these are just the problems that you get and that's normal and then someone figured out well actually no that's that's really not normal you're not supposed to be uh you know aging like that that's a problem and i think that's what we're in right now i think we're in our stage of lead pipes and uh and that so once we address that and just shrink that back down we go back to those those five uh foundational uh you know areas of medicine and actually you know get back to what what medicine is supposed to be and um instead of just you know chronic disease management it's actually you know health care and and and addressing issues that you need a doctor for whereas you know you know maybe it helps that that you know coming from a medical background and then this is something we care about that we see in practice is helping people so we can talk about this but we really don't need a doctor to eat properly you just need to know what the hell you're supposed to eat you need to get doctors to stop telling you to eat the wrong damn thing you know i don't i don't i don't care if someone wants to eat uh you know doughnuts and and pizza i i really don't it does not bother me you know if somebody care wants to do that i just don't want you know doctors telling them this is this is good for you should eat the donuts or or something like that or or if they want to smoke you know i i just certainly don't want doctors telling somebody that they should smoke because smoking is good for them and but only smoke organic non-gmo tobacco worse yeah obviously yeah i mean that's where it comes from the gmos you know i'm sure yeah and so yeah and and um you know just just get letting people you know just live their lives and uh and not you know really getting in the way of that and then getting back to what what medicine was supposed to be and i think it would be a much better profession and world if we do get back to that and uh and make a lot of uh a lot of us you know a much have have much more free time on our hands and not have to have to worry about all this i think that that would be great you know i mean any any health care system you care to to mention is is going to be under much more undue pressure because of this chronic disease burden um and so regardless of your system it's going to be it's going to be overburdened and when you get that back into normal ranges you know that that's that's going to free up huge chunks of the economy you know and and also you know you're not going to have the pressure on the medical system so when you have people that are in this sort of these dire straits and need you know emergency care they'll be able to get it much more readily and i i think they just said just so many steps down the chain that this is just gonna help and i just hopefully that that happens in uh in the next sort of little while i don't know i i'm hopeful that in the next five ten years this becomes much more mainstream though and i think it will at least to some degree i i have similar hopes but i always i'm you know i try to be very common sense and rational and i understand that for what you just described to take place they're going to be many many many specialists and sub-specialists looking for new lines of work because you only need so many endocrinologists and so many nephrologists if everybody is metabolically healthy yeah what are they going to do for a living what are the medical insurance companies going to do when when the average 50 year old's not having to go to the doctor you know five times a year what are they going to do when the when the average 50 year old is out there working in the in the in the pasture working on the ranch working in the gym working on the you know the field instead of laying on the couch drinking beer and eating donuts what's big food going to do i mean what what's what are they all going to do they're going to have to be looking for work so i am all for disrupting the current state of unhealth and and i won't ever cease to do that and i don't think you will either and it's it's a pleasure to talk to somebody with a like minds who has similar goals it doesn't happen every day and it always makes me happy when it does oh good well thank you very much it's a pleasure uh to talk to you as well um i i'm conscious of your time i i don't want to to do you take up all of your day how are you on time do you need to wrap up for you yeah let's uh yeah a few more minutes we can we can do a slow wrap up be perfect sure all right um well you know you know one of them what maybe just just to touch on just sort of uh some practical aspects of of this uh that some people do ask me um is that when they're they're starting on a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet um you know they they some people get low energy they don't really feel great at first and and people talk about getting keto adapted or fat adapted in your experience you know how how long does this normally last what are some you know tips and advice you can give to people who are going through that so definitely sugar addiction is a real thing and just like any addiction alcohol addiction tobacco addiction when you remove the offending agent that you are addicted to you're going to have a period of time where you have all of the symptoms of withdrawal right and what i would encourage anybody if they're currently going through the keto flu write down what your symptoms are of the keto flu and then google what are the symptoms of tobacco withdrawal or alcohol withdrawal or even the the illicit drugs what's the withdrawal symptoms and what you're going to see is that the symptoms line up almost perfectly headache fatigue mild nausea sweaty no energy no get up and go feel like you know just want to lay around it's the same exact symptoms from all those withdrawals and so i think for most people keto flu is a misnomer it should really be called carbohydrate withdrawal syndrome and it lasts anywhere from three days to 14 days for the vast majority of people some people if you're already eating kind of a lower carb diet to begin with you may not have that much of the withdrawal i do think that that many of us especially those eating a modern highly processed high carb diet have multiple mineral and vitamin deficiencies uh and and electrolyte deficiencies and so then when you when you start eating a way that's going to lower your insulin levels and going to cause you to diurese away that unhealthy fluid that you've been holding electrolytes gonna go with that so i do think replacing your electrolytes and salting your food to taste is gonna help with the the keto adaptation and the keto flu that that u.s news and world report loves to talk about that's like their favorite topic in the world to write articles about but the average person this is going to last just like if you're a smoker and you quit uh you're going to it's going to suck for about 14 days you quit alcohol it's going to suck for about 14 days and for many people with severe carb addiction it's gonna take three to fourteen days to get through that now does that mean that you should go back to drinking alcohol routinely because you're going through this terrible withdrawal is that what your body's saying no of course not should you go back to smoking cigarettes because stopping smoking sucks that's making you feel like no you should persist and persevere and get through that and then on the other side of that is better health and i think the same exact concept applies when you talk about keto adaptation and keto flu or carbohydrate withdrawal symptom syndrome yeah and i i'm glad you said that because that was sort of my you know my my suspicion that a keto flu was was more to do with you know like withdrawals and then even even when people go on a keto from a from a normal standard diet standard western diet they they say okay well eat meat we won't eat carbs but you'll get you get your all your nutrition from plants and so they they eat just a buttload of vegetables and they're really just stuffing in all of these all of these uh things that you're getting and you're getting these these various you know plant toxins that your body's not really accustomed to and you're eating it you know 10 times the proportion that you've had before and that and that can cause problems as well so sort of just to just to wrap things up uh with discussing what we did you know previously with uh you know dr saladino and they were saying that you you really need to uh get some carbohydrates you know they're arguing that that uh you know being in ketosis or on a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet long term is actually dangerous and and i think one of the things that that they're missing here is that you know they've been on they were on a carnivore diet for about a year before they started having health issues whereas you know people like yourself and and myself i've been i've been carnivore solidly for the last five years dr baker has as well there have been people on a ketogenic diet you know for well over a decade keto uh you know movement has happened it came long before carnivore did and then there are other long-term carnivores that you know over a decade or multiple decades where they they aren't having these problems so you know to me that means that that he's doing something different than we all are and i you know i don't know what that is i'm not i'm not his doctor or anything like that but but it does seem that he's doing something different and that difference is not carbohydrates because we're not having carbohydrates and so is is uh you know being in ketosis or being on a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet and being in that metabolic state is that something uh that can be you know in your in your view dangerous in the long term or is that something that people need to worry about i don't think so at all i don't think there's any meaningful research or either anecdotal or observational or causational that in any way even implies that long-term uh ketogenic way of eating is in any way dangerous whatsoever it just i would i defy anybody show me the physiology show me the biochemistry show me the causation and i think they're going to come up empty-handed every time uh it's it's very tempting as a social media influencer to make things more difficult than they truly are because then that that opens up a space for you to be the explainer or to be the right oh i can i can help you with that you know sign up for my program i can help you with that buy my supplements and uh anytime somebody is making very basic things more complicated than they need to be watch out for the sale the subtle cell because it's probably coming just around the corner and that's why i decided at the very beginning of this i'm never gonna i'm never gonna have a line of supplements i'm never gonna ever have a line of prepackaged foods uh i've had a hundred different companies reach out to me and say hey promote my product and i'm like if you your product is yeah okay i'm never gonna promote your product stop emailing me i've had multiple companies say hey we can set you up a coaching program and you can have you know certified proper human diet coaches and i'm like you know what i'm not interested because i'm not trying to complicate this yeah i'm trying to simplify this yeah that's what and so just like breathing i tell people all the time how many times have you breathed in the last 60 seconds do you know are you not tracking that oh my god how are you going to know you're breathing the optimal amount of times if you don't track that don't you need you need to wear a ring to tell you how often you're breathing you may need a chest band i can sell you that maybe you need an o2 sensor and we can put your knot i can sell you that uh we'll get you a pulse oximeter i can sell you that and it's like no dude just shut up and go outside and play your body's gonna breathe when you need to breathe yeah and when you stop eating the highly processed highly inflammatory high carbohydrate diet that modern society and big corporations try to push on us when you stop that and you start eating a proper human diet then your hunger and your satiety you how much body fat you hold how much lean muscle percentage you hold you don't have to you don't have to track any of that anymore you don't have to think about it you just eat until you're comfortably stuffed and then go outside and play it's just that simple and depending on how metabolically ill you are and how long you have been it might take you longer to heal and to recover and to realize that optimal health and that ability to just eat fatty meat until you're full and go outside and play but it's gonna happen you're gonna be moving in that direction but be very cautious of anyone who tries to muddy the water and complicate this and say oh well it's not gonna work unless you do this and this and take my supplement yeah at that point you're like okay so my body can breathe effortlessly i don't even have to think about it my heart can beat effortlessly i don't have to think about it or track it my kidneys make urine my colon makes poop none of that stuff i have to think about but the kind of the prime thing that keeps all of that other stuff working my food well i have to think about that and i have to track that and i have to buy these and this and that it's like dude come on either this all makes sense or none of it makes sense yeah you really ultimately have to fall you know how how do coyotes and and deer in the wild how do they not get obese how do they not starve to death because it's this is this is just built into us just like breathing and heart beating and urine production the deer and coyotes don't have to think about this they just do it they wake up they eat until their stuff and if they can find the food and then they go take a nap and then they take a and then they go and they just do what they do they don't have to track any of this no there's not a single coyote in the state of tennessee that has an aura ring if they're tired they go to sleep if they're hungry they eat if their their bowels are full they take a that's it they just do it and they get on with it human beings are mammals we are homo sapien sapiens all of our is hardwired just like the deer just like the coyote it's all hardwired if you're eating a proper human diet and living a proper human lifestyle that's it literally all that stuff's hardwired you don't have to track any of it you don't have to do anything if you've got those two things everything else falls into place yeah and that's all i got to say about that yeah well i i 100 agree with you uh yeah on on all of that and you know because that that's the thing you know right nature is natural you know it's in the word and uh yeah god forbid and yeah you just don't you don't have to micromanage these things and um you know if you as i say to people you know if you need a calculator to figure out what to eat you're eating the wrong thing you know it should just happen and and i love when people try to try to do this and they get very you know uh you know they they want the the ph in their water be this well i have to worry about my ph because my blood ph is slightly basic so i need like you are not going to affect that in any meaningful way you know your body has exacting control over these things and so you you know playing games and and buying into a marketing campaign you know is is is you know that's all it is it's just a marketing campaign it's not actually having any sort of physiological effect on your body um and and you don't need to do that you don't need to make it complicated you just you just need to be and uh and let and let your body take care of the rest that's great well dr barry thank you so much for your time i really appreciate this it was an absolute pleasure talking to you it's absolutely a pleasure to meet you and thank you so much for coming on um where where can people find you and and and how is it best to to get a hold of you and see your work so i have a little youtube channel if you just go to youtube and search for dr barry uh you'll find it and then i have over 600 videos there and so i i pretty much have covered every medical condition every uh one of the most commonly prescribed medications all of the questions about diets and lifestyles so if you've got high blood pressure and you've got reflux just search you youtube for dr barry heartburn dr berry high blood pressure dr berry diabetes whatever your medical condition is i probably have one or two or three videos about that i also wrote the book lies my doctor told me i've got another book that should be out in just a few weeks called common sense labs that talks about all the labs your doctor should be ordering for you what the results mean what's the optimal range uh and questions that you can ask your doctor that should be uh soon and then i'm working on what i probably think is going to be my magnum opus the proper human diet which will be out uh within a one to ten years because my add keeps kicking in and i know this is a very important work it needs to be done properly and so i'm not going to rush it very good all right well everyone should go out and and get those books i i've read lies my doctor told me i think it's excellent um i will definitely take uh uh take a look at the the new book when it comes out and and eagerly await your magnum opus um dr barry thank you so much for coming out i really appreciate it thank you doctors a pleasure see you next time