How a Mother Healed Her Daughter’s Rare Genetic Condition (MMIHS) with Carnivore | Jessica Roman

welcome to the plant-free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chaffy where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hello everyone thank you for joining me for another episode of the plant free MD I'm your host Dr Anthony chaffy and today I have very special a special guest Mrs Jessica Roman who is joining me all the way from America and um thankfully uh was was able to work something out with the time zones Jessica thank you so much for coming on it's a it's a pleasure to have you on yeah thank you so much for having me I'm excited to be here yeah me too so um for people who haven't come across you in your story before can you tell us a bit about yourself yeah so uh my daughter is actually the the one in the spotlight for the whole story um she was born with a very rare genetic disorder called mmhs and it's a genetic disease that affects the smooth muscles so the small intestine large intestine and the bladder so she was diagnosed shortly after birth and the prognosis was very Grim very grim and to make a long story very short before we get too into it uh we were able to get her we were able to almost completely heal her using carnivore and um more specifically no plant gaps which is more focused on the organ meats and broths as well as fermented dairy so it's like a subset of carnivore for extremely um sensitive patients yeah so how did you come across that obviously that's not wouldn't be the normal pathway that people would take for for this or anything else and what what led you to this so we were at a Crossroads with her she had had 11 surgeries all of them emergency between um osty placements and revisions so she had a lot of abdominal surgeries she had lost some length in her bowel um and she was 100% tpn dependent so she had a line in her chest 100% IV nutrition and she was diagnosed with intestinal failure so we were pretty much out of options with traditional medical the next steps were to evaluate her for transplant and enlist her for a bowel transplant and generally with mmhs kids they don't just get small intestine large intestine when they do a transplant they do the liver kidneys and pancreas as well so five organs um and we knew that her prognosis after something like that if she even survived that surgery which she was only 2 years old so her chances would wouldn't have been great uh the prognosis after a multivisceral transplant is about 5 years if you have a bowel included so we were desperate for answers and I had a friend of mine who was talking about candida one day he's very into like biohacking and things like that so he was talking about candida and I was like let me just start researching that so I kept researching and researching different terms different phrases for candida and eventually I came across Dr Becky plotner who was a naturopath here in the United States she was in Tennessee so we had to do Zoom calls but I had a zoom call with her from the hospital after one of my daughter's emergency surgeries and she was like this is the exact diet that she needs she needs to go on no plant gaps um you guys have to make everything from scratch buy these books do this protocol with her so we started right away yeah wow well that's that's great that you're you know your clinician actually put you on this um you know it's nice to see that that more and more people are coming on to this no plants gaps I like sort of the sound of that I I heard the carnivore diet referred to the other day as as a a plant pre ketogenic diet as well that's good too you know yeah and sort of you know relays the message anyway so obviously very very serious very dire situation and um willing to try pretty much anything even if it sounds crazy like a no plants gats diet um which it did yeah definitely um so what what what did you first notice I mean how did things go you know with your daughter's treatment when you started her on that that eating your way of eating so the first thing that we noticed was that our suspicions about candida were correct and she was completely overgrown with fungus in her intestines okay so when we first started the diet we we actually bought chickens from the Amish country that were completely pasture raised and they only ate worms so they were soyf free corn-free and it was expensive at first but Dr Becky had thought that she would not tolerate beef and she was actually correct um she couldn't tolerate beef at first because it it was so detoxing that and she was so sensitive so we started by boiling six gallon pots of these Amish chickens and deboning them and blending them with the broth so we we would boil the whole chicken and then debone it blend it with broth and add a little bit of salt and we would just give her a couple MLS at a time through her G tube and at first she was having massive die off from the Fungus it's crazy what happens when you put the right food in that the pathogenic things in the gut start dying um so she started having even more gas at first and you know her whole life she had this big distended belly and Tiny limbs so she looked like the commercials that you see for kids who are have severe malnourishment yeah um and it was it was extreme and her her stomach was so big it was hard all the time she didn't walk she didn't move much so when the gas increased we were scared but we kept the course and just vented her gtube as much as we could to keep her comfortable and within about a week the gas started to subside and her stomach was flat for the first time in her life and her very pale white skin started to have a little bit of Vibrance to it her lips that were gray all the time turned pink just in a week wow and we noticed her hair started growing a little tiny bit in in one week we noticed a difference in her W she started to get off the couch here and there she was very inactive um and she smiled for the first time which was incredible oh that's really sweet how old was she at that time she was almost three when we started yeah wow oh poor little thing wow so so in about all you know just about a week you already started seeing massive improvements how long how long did it take well did did she make a full recovery how's she doing now um so the first two months she went from 26 lbs MH to 36 PBS great so very fast she gained a tremendous amount of weight especially for her size putting on 10 pounds I mean that was almost half her weight that she gained yeah um so she filled out she looked like a healthy kid she had all this energy and for the first time we were seeing her personality you talk about like autism spectrum disorder and how it responds well to she was having Spectrum like behaviors from probably 16 months old and it cleared up right away her behavior was completely different um so now she is five and so in those first two months she came off tpn and she had her line removed shortly after now she's 5 years old and she's home doing amazing she still does have a GBE and an ostomy we've talked about reversing her ostomy because her bowel function is incredible now I mean she has no problems and we even had done testing on her colon uh when she was two and they told us she had about 10% function of her colon she uses the bathroom almost every day and has stuff coming out of her butt from the slothing of the cells yeah so her colon Works incredibly well better than it did when she was little and and it's not pushing much through but she used to have to have procedures to have her colon cleaned out because that's how little function she had so every time she would have a surgery they would go in and remove impacted stool and they don't have to do that anymore she she goes on her own um and she also went from needing four to six catheters per day to only needing catheters at night so I know people who have this I I know one person who is 20 years old who's made it that long usually they don't ever make it to that point um and she can't pee a drop she has to be Cal to go to the bathroom at all and my daughter was the same way and going on this diet we started seeing wet diapers for the first time and it sounds funny for normal parents but we were jumping up and down and screaming we couldn't believe that she was peeing and it started out sporadically and now she has complete control of her bladder the only reason I I cath her at the end of the day just to make sure there's no residual but she's doing fantastic yeah that's amazing and yeah you know obviously that that would not be the normal you know the natural history of that sort of illness uh clearly you know it's a it's a much more more dire sort of prognosis what um well first of all that's amazing I'm really glad to hear that she's doing so well you got to be absolutely thrilled I'm sure um what did her doctors think of all this I know we were going to have her doctor on but she wasn't able to make it she was at a conference um which is would have been very nice to to speak to her as well but of course that's understandable hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25% off total all right thanks guys yeah so her her doctors are amazed um we had to bring her to the hospital because she was having she had a stomach bug and had some electrolyte disturbances with the ostomy so we brought her in for monitoring and all the doctors from all over a very prominent Children's Hospital I won't say the name of it but a prom at Children's Hospital they were coming from everywhere even one Doctor Who had crutches cuz she had hurt her leg came all the way across the hospital to come see this this little girl with an actg2 mutation mmhs who recovered and they're looking at her and they're bringing in Residence to see her it was as close to a miracle as you can as you can imagine um and we've spoken a lot with her doctor who is pretty high up at that hospital and um she asked us to write down exactly what we did so I I did end up writing a book about it which should be out later this month hopefully but nice I wrote it basically to guide other people through what worked for her and uh her doctors are amazed and thrilled and uh they're sharing her story at conference is now so I'm hoping that it leads to a change in dietary advice especially for kids who have slow GI motility um because the dietitians told us her diet should be 60% carbs and I'm like how'd that one work out are you really telling me that that I should use the food pyramid for this child who you know doesn't tolerate anything MH and uh my husband had some experience with extreme dieting he had done a carnivore plus spinach which was that was his diet for years and when I met him that's all he ate he would he would have like a bag of eggs that we'd carry around with him just to have like snacks throughout the day nice and uh he was very on bored when Dr Becky recommended no plant gaps I was the one who was like can you get everything that you need from meat and she assured us she was like oh yeah everything's in the fat and the organs and you know she'll have all the nutrients that she needs and she does so it's been incredible to see and everyone is thrilled and in shock really yeah it's great that they're talking about at conferences obviously that's really important and and it I think it is is likely a good demonstration of the idea that you need a genetic predisposition and environmental trigger you have this this rare genetic condition but if you're eating a biologically appropriate diet it seems to not be as big of an issue as if you're eating hot garbage you know and and that hot garbage is you we can tolerate it more you other people can tolerate it more uh but but someone who has that condition obviously they're going to have a much lower threshold um that they can tolerate so you that's that's something that's def definitely worth knowing you know that other other parents that have children with this issue they at least can try have something to try and see if that that works for them as well hopefully that's the case that it's this you know gar garbage food that's that's triggering and and manifesting the issues that you get with this genetic condition but if you're eating a proper diet then you know not so much um do you know if they're they're writing it up obviously presenting it at conferences um is great but do do you know if they've planned to public or do they plan to publish this as a as a case report I believe so um I've spoken to her doctor and she would like to medically document it and then the Doctor Who wrote the gaps diet actually Also may do a medical writing on it yeah Dr Natasha Campbell McBride right yeah um she is incredible she's the one who wrote the book and the protocol that we followed to a te and there's also another case um just like my daughter she was the same age and I connected with her family on social media and told them what we were doing and told them what books to buy and the protocol that we used and they did it with their daughter and she is recovering as well hey she's taking a bit more time um she was on she was on tpn a little bit longer and she was in worse shape even than my daughter so it's been a little bit of a longer Road for them but immediately she gained weight and looked better she's had spurts of coming off tpn up to a month which is huge progress um and they're pretty confident in a year or two she should be completely off tpn and without a port which which is incredible so we've it's happened twice now it's been replicated it's not just a fluke thing you know yeah yeah well that's amazing too I mean even if they publish a case series you know hey look we've got a few of these and this has worked every time so you know definitely something to take Serious um that's great that that uh Dr McBride was involved in that that's really great she was actually supposed to be at a um we're both supposed to be speakers at a conference next well this month actually in Spain but I think she has another uh she had a conflict end up com in and so she has to be at another conference so yeah I was looking forward to actually meeting her and um and obviously I i' love to get her on the podcast too I just need to need reach out I've been mean to do I was hoping to like talk to her at this conference and then you do something there but um I have to do something else but how did she get involved did you guys contact her or did your your doctors or how did how did she get involved so our naturopath Dr Becky plotner was a certified gaps practitioner and she worked very closely with Dr Natasha um writing books and working through the gaps protocol helping other people and doing education for her so she reached out and said hey I have this little girl who had this rare genetic disorder and recovered um so that was pretty incredible I mean you can't get much worse than what they told us her prognosis was which was she might live till four or five and she's going to need a lot of surgeries and it's Progressive and it's terminal like this will take her life that's what they told us and at this point it doesn't look like that's the case at all it looks like you know just changing to a proper human diet which is what you and Dr Ken Barry always talk about but it really is true and especially for the most sensitive of people yeah this can completely change their life and and saved their life and it saved my daughter's life yeah well I'm really glad that that you ran into people that that you know had come across this sort of thing before because you know how many I mean that is just that is just blind luck you know it is because you know it is growing but you know the amount of the amount of clinician out there that are are confident enough saying look i' I've seen this work I've you know read the literature um you know this this can help um is growing but it's certainly not the majority of people and so you know that's very I'm I'm very glad that you you came across especially her you know she's she's already worked very closely you know with uh with Natasha and um has helped a lot of people so that's very very lucky and you know I I can only imagine how many other people have not had that situation come to them and you know not even with this specific genetic issue but with all sorts of issues you know that could be helped I mean just Crohn's disease it's fairly common in the grand scheme of things there are a lot of people Afflicted with crohn's and the vast majority of them are being told that diet has nothing to do with it it doesn't it doesn't matter you just yeah eat the pyramid you know and um and uh and that's that's all you need to do and and yet you know it's it's having you know no benefit like oh well they're following the guidelines they're doing all the the proper things and it's it's only getting worse therefore diet has you know has nothing to do with it because they're eating the right diet it's that even that's not helping but um yeah I think uh I'm really hopeful well I'm really well I'm I'm really excited let's say for for when this becomes much more mainstream and understood and people really this really starts blowing up and people start using this um in a large scale sort of effort and just to see the amount of things human suffering that goes away as a result of it it would be absolutely amazing I couldn't agree more and like you look at keto keto is so widely accepted among doctors as a good treatment path for epilepsy so when I spoke to the dietitians and I said I really want to try this with her they were like well she doesn't have epilepsy it doesn't she doesn't need this diet don't restrict her diet that's what we were told do not restrict her diet and I really wanted to have them on board because being like this with medical staff is not helpful and I wanted them to be on my side so they had wanted us to try regular GBE feeds off the shelf out of a can that are full of you know canola oil oil and sugar um corn syrup sugar yes it like really the worst stuff you could possibly put in a human body to feed her and I said listen I have been with her her whole life and I know what she responds well to and what she doesn't and every time she had a pseudo obstruction which she had them almost weekly when we were feeding her carbs I knew what caused every single time because I'm with her around the clock I can collect data that doctors can't I can observe her all the time and she would eat carbs her belly would get hugely distended she'd be uncomfortable vomiting green bile backing up from the intestines and I was like I can't put her on any of these formulas I said please bring me a packet and I will read every single ingredient of every formula that you have and if one is safe for her we can try it and they brought me a big packet and I highlighted every ingredient in every single formula that I knew she wouldn't react well to and I brought it back to them and they were very frustrated with me but I said I I don't want to do more harm you know she was at a point where she was so weak already I really wanted to make sure we were not doing more damage and if we were going to try something that it was going to work for her um so So eventually they were like please just leave us alone and do whatever you want she was already on tpn so it wouldn't do much harm she was being managed by the tpn if she needed anything else and she needed huge amounts of electrolytes in her tpn and she came off of that very quickly I mean she was getting 90 meqs a day of potassium in her tpn like a tremendous amount and she came right off of it just fine by replacing her night fluids with bone broth gave her all the pottassium she needed even with the limited absorption that she has having a shorter small intestine from all her surgeries and not having her colon attached still she was able to get everything she needed it was incredible yeah it is and uh so what what do the dietitians think now do they they come around or they still think you're crazy they still think I'm crazy yeah yeah uh they don't they actually we we're not seen by nutrition anymore because she is doing so well um and we're hardly seen by GI I have to beg for an appointment just to get in to see them because they're like she's fine she doesn't need to be seen anymore um but I like to keep coming back and showing them her progress yeah well it's good to I mean even just check in you know and for for them you know it's it's probably good to you know keep an eye on and you know obviously just to make sure everything's okay and um so it's uh yeah I think it's fair enough to to go in for a checkup and things like that just to make sure you know there isn't anything that's being missed and and also to talk to them about like you said like reversal of the ostomy I mean I think that's you know that's something that would be amazing if you could do I think it's fairly reasonable you having all these signs of of improved bowel function you know why not you know have they have they you said that they've sort of been discussing that is where where you guys at in those discussions very early um she has she's had 16 surgeries total including her line removal she had a volvulus at one point so she's been through quite a bit um and she's very mature and involved in in her care uh it sounds funny but even at 5 years old I can have these conversations with her and even when she got her line removed I explained to her you know you're G to going for surgery they're going to put you to sleep they're going to take your line out you'll wake up you'll just have a little Stitch and a Band-Aid and you'll be okay and okay Mommy and she asks a lot of questions and wants to know what's going on so she has asked me before will I ever be able to not have my Emy anymore and I just my husband and I have talked about it at length and we decided we would like her to be old enough to be involved in that decision for herself self because it is a risk and it's never been done before that's for sure especially in mmhs um so we want to make sure that we can make an informed decision with her about her body and do it at an age where she can understand the risks because for now it works out just fine you know she's only five years old doesn't bother her much and um she's homeschooled so I take care of everything she doesn't need to be at school with a nurse or anything like that um so I think definitely when she gets older and and the longer she's on this diet the more she's going to heal the better her bowel function will be so I think we'll have a better chance the longer we wait okay yeah well and that's perfectly reasonable I mean there's um you know everything's going well you know you don't need to rock the boat and um but you know it's it is very you know is very hopeful that you know with the how she's how well she's doing now that hopefully she will be able to reverse her iloom and and not have to worry about that anymore and and um you know because obviously you know you get used to it especially when you know earlier something happens you just get used to it just that's just what it is you know and kids are really resilient and they very you know good about that sort of thing but you know it it does make certain things a bit more difficult you know as you get old older and um you know so that would be that would be nice and also like you said it's uh it would be something that really hasn't been done before and to be able to recover to that point would be pretty amazing and um and and would would definitely you know plant a flag thinging like hey look this is this is something that we need to seriously consider as far as an intervention for people with this condition yeah yeah you can fully reverse it and actually come off a a stoma bag you know incredible you can't just pretend that that was a fluke you know not with something like this you know exactly and I think even looking at the stark contrast of where she was versus where she is I mean we're talking about intestinal failure that was her diagnosis MH that's what her papers were marked with intestinal failure and she made she's using her bowel for 100% of her calories and she's on zero medications I forgot to mention that she doesn't take any medications yeah great no motility drugs nothing yeah um so we're very proud of that you know um so just looking at the contrast of where she was versus where she's at and that she's been able to maintain this long term MH um and then if you look at her versus other kids with mmhs is is a a spectrum so there's different phenotypes within the genotype act G2 and my daughter's phenotype was one of the worst it's 257 um and if you look at a chart with all the phenotypes it says high risk of mortality and Transplant and that's what all the very severe ones say and the other kids like her that were in that phenotype I know many of the families I've connected with them on social media and they're not they're not doing great um the little girl in Chile who did recover and is is getting better she has the same phenotype as Riley so she's also on the very severe end um but just looking at the difference between them and the other kiddos you know huge huge difference and I really hope that more doctors around the country and around the world start to take a look at this especially for mmhs because there's no other hope besides a bowel transplant and I'm sure you know as a surgeon how Inc incredibly complex they are a a bowel transplant especially in a child you have to have organs that fit and it's very hard to find intact organs in a child and you need five I mean for most of these kids even my daughter her liver was declining and her enzymes were elevated and we were seeing signs that liver failure was coming from the tpn um and we were able to reverse that as well because when she started on the high-fat diet her liver cleared right out and we got liver and gallstones like the size of my thumb you would not believe what came out and she passed them without much trouble she wasn't in any pain and I would just go to empty Heros and be like she didn't eat anything hard what is this and I would send pictures to Dr plotner and she she had a a degree in parasitology so she would we had parasites come out as well which sounds crazy from a two-year-old but she passed parasites and gallstones and liver stones and you know we sent pictures of everything to her and she's like that's what this is that's what this is so it was incredible to see that transformation but that you can also reverse all this damage that's been done from being on the tpn yeah tpn is is nasty stuff so people that don't know that's stands for total parental nutrition so it's IV nutrition basically so you bypass your whole alary tract your digestive tract and you just just pump in nutrients and that that sounds all well and good but it is very difficult to balance all the nutrients and electrolytes and um quite often you'll see people will their bloods will start getting deranged their electrolytes will start getting deranged their liver function will start to um uh Decline and um you know you can have very serious problems as a result of that also it's you know like like you said it's like 60% carbohydrates you know and like and like the fats are like you know seed oils and things like that and you're just like and and you're just like mainlining this stuff into people's veins right into your veins yeah God so it's um it's certainly not ideal and also you know you things are supposed to go through your digestive tract like you said you know you have you have all these gall stones like well you're building up bile in order to absorb fat and there's no fat coming through it just build up there it gets concentrated and concentrated and starts to form precipitate and crystals which is what you know concentrated Solutions do and so it's it's important to actually use your digestive tract every now and then and um and so you can get problems you know from not doing that and so yeah so it's it's great that you were able to to get away from that I because obviously with a lot of people in this condition you know that may not really be an option to ever do you know um you gastric feeds or certainly out of oral feeds that' be very difficult for for some of these kids um I did wonder you you mentioned the other other parents that um had children that that had this issue and they weren't W doing too and the kids weren't doing too well have other parents tried to adopt these same ways of eating and and followed suit or besides the one or or or they still like no that's too weird uh definitely that was the reaction from some that it was too weird um there were three other families that did try uh one little boy he he actually did fantastic at first um and they started weaning him up on the GBE feeds with no plant gaps they followed Dr Natasha's protocol um and he unfortunately got a hold of some Skittles oh no and had a volvulus and he hasn't had any intestinal function since then it was really incredibly scary um just a couple of Skittles can kill these kids it's it's really wild um so that was one family I'm I'm still in touch with them he's doing okay he is on tpn and he's already been evaluated for transplant he's the same age as my daughter in fact uh the little girl in Chile is the same age as my daughter as well so he's been evaluated for transplant I think they'll probably go through with that when he gets a little bit bigger but he's he's doing okay um another family did try it was a little bit successful her son had been on motility drugs his whole life and he's his intestines go through flares of like crazy amounts of diarrhea and no movement at all so they're giving motility drugs and drugs like anti-diarrheals to try to balance and they just could not make at work with him he's a little bit older I think he's probably nine now um and then there was another family who her she actually has two daughters who both have mmhs she was a genetic carrier my husband and I were not genetic carriers so our CH our other children don't have it um but this family both of her daughters have a a lesser phenotype it's less severe so they're able to manage by sticking sort of to a diet they do get distended but they're able to kind of get by they haven't had any surgeries yet thank God hopefully they don't ever need them um but when they start to get distended they go back on all meat and then they will eat the junk food again because they their kids Unfortunately they haven't made the full change as a household and I think that's where the problem comes in my husband and I when our daughter had to do no plant gaps we were like okay that's it we're all doing it because the house has to be a safe place for her and you can't have temptations around adults let alone children yeah so I think families that can adopt it all together and from a very young age you could see healing and progress and and maybe they won't ever need a surgery I think Riley may have needed an ostomy if we had started no plant gaps from when she started solids she was breastfed up until 22 months old so I think that helped a lot too um but if we started her on no plant gaps when we started solids she may have only needed an ostomy and if that you know she may not have needed one at all so the earlier you catch it the better and the other families that have tried they use it for management where they can unfortunately some of them just didn't catch it early enough I know there's a patient at chop and a few patients at chop who are very young right now who they may try this with from what I've heard so hopefully it goes well and helps but I think catching it early is the key especially before they go on motility medications we never put our daughter on motility medications I refused because I knew what would happen from the other moms that told me you know now their bowel doesn't work at all without stimulation right and they can't from what we've seen they haven't been able to reverse that even with even with the the no plants gaps yeah they're just they're so incredibly sensitive like it's like you've nothing you've ever seen before I mean when we first started putting in 10 mL of broth and chicken into her feeding tube we were getting like an inch of crystals in her urine overnight like the incredible detoxing that happened and I think what this mutation is is it's really just toxic overload completely for for these kids um from what we've seen with her that's the case because as she's detoxed she passed so many liver and gallstones I can't even tell you thousands she passed and some of them big some of them small of course um she passed so many crystals in her urine I it's like were her kidneys just completely full to the top it was incredible to see how much came out and um like I said parasites yeast just so much stuff that was in her body and we had to go so incredibly slow weaning her onto this and it took over a year just to get her on to tolerate a little bit of beef because it would detox her so quickly so I think just because of the sensitivity that's why it's such a struggle to get them on especially once they've progressed more yeah well it's great that the clinicians are taking this seriously because they're the ones that are able to suggest it to the the next round of patients that come in with this especially you know we have you know these these unique and and rare genetic conditions usually like a department or a team or a doctor is like the expert in this and like oh you need to go see this person at this hospital and and if they're on board with this and think it's okay hey you know this is something that that I've had success with with other patients why don't you give it a try early on I mean that's that's when you get the real uh benefits me because they're the ones disseminating this information in a targeted fashion you know to the people that need to hear it you know I can talk about this all day and and hopefully this this video gets out to other you know parents with um you know with children with this condition um but you know it's obviously much better if you have the clan who's who's directly treating this saying hey this is actually something that I think will work and would at least at least um be worth a shot anyway and because that's very targeted so that's uh yeah it's very it's very good that they're taking that seriously hey everyone really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show for everybody down in Australia Stockman steaks who are delivering highquality grass-fed and finished pasture raised beef and other meats flash frozen and vacuum sealed tood door something I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well they also have a great range of specialty items such as high fat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver kidneys and beef heart as well so use code chaffy today for free order of beef mints or another specialty gift along with your order at Stockman steaks.com and I'll see you over there thanks guys yeah I think it would be really beneficial if the dietitians took Dr Natasha's coures and became certified gaps practitioners because right now what they're recommending it's going to kill the kids unfortunately and it sounds harsh but it's true I mean if we did with our daughter what they recommended I don't think we'd have her right now just because every time she got carbs when she had a volvulus she had like three crackers that got dropped at a family party and she had a volvulus so severe like we're talking a couple of crackers made this huge she had four surgeries she had a wound back because her wound didn't heal properly I mean it was just insane she had oh Scar Tissue the size of golf balls that we had to address and we've been able to get rid of it thank god um but it was absolutely insane to see what carbohydrates did to her body it was completely a no-go and especially for kids who have slow intestinal motility now they they're predisposed to have fungal overgrowth things are moving slow and then what happens when you feed fungus carbohydrates it ferments so the fermentation that was happening that that's why she was so distended that's why her belly was so big all the time why she was so uncomfortable it's fermentation and it's funny like Dr Shan Baker will talk about and I I've Heard lots of carnivore people talk about how you don't have a lot of gas on Carnivore and it's literally true even for the most severe of cases and that was her problem was the gas her intestin were not strong enough and um organized enough in their peristalsis to move the food and the gas through so the gas would just act like a physical blockage it's called a pseudo obstruction and it would act as though she swallowed a baseball and I've got x-rays I can send you some pictures but the intestines the small intestines were like half the size of her abdomen it was absolutely wild to see so um getting rid of that gas gas and stopping that fermentation that's what was key and I remember thinking to myself if we could just stop the gas production we can stop the pseudo obstructions and I asked the doctors so many times you know do you think diet has anything to do with this and no just let her eat what she wants she's going to be tpn dependent for the rest of her life no matter what you do so stop asking us about this like that's the response I was I was getting at some points and I pressed on and I was determined and eventually you know they got on board with it but stopping the gas was the key and I just think it's funny that people talk about that because even in the most extreme of cases stopping the gas it that's really what saved her life yeah wow and that it's always it's always funny to me how doctors who study the bowel and the digestive tract they they and and nutritionists they can say well well this disease of the gut it doesn't matter what you eat it doesn't matter the food and substance you put in this organ that does not affect the organ at all it's like why why wouldn't it you know yeah like like why why are we why are we thinking that that wouldn't affect it I mean you know certain things that know get into your kidney and form kidney stones and it's just like no no no kidney stones have nothing to do with your kidney like I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that that actually has something to do with that it's the same thing you you're there's something that your digestive tract has to deal with that those organs have to deal with of course that matters you know if you're you're putting something in there that um is going to derange its normal function cause a whole bunch of gas and the peristalsis can't run properly you make a bunch of methane methane actually slows down peristalsis even further and so you know why wouldn't that matter or or things that are directly toxic to your interos sites you have a wheat ger glutenin and other lectins which directly damage inas sites and the Gap and the and the tight junctions between them why are we why are we thinking that this doesn't do any we have we have direct evidence that it does um problem I mean you eat certain things and you'll eat a lot of spicy food you can get um irritation of your bowel and you can get have a laxative effect same with coffee oh has nothing to do with it what did you just see you know you had two cups of coffee and you had to run to the bathroom like why are you thinking that these things are not related everybody knows that they're related you know why don't why don't you know because everybody else knows don't you know you know you're supposed to be a doctor you know it's always funny to me it's weird that the protocols haven't caught up with the science because there is clear evidence for all of this and um you know you're seeing these huge hospitals that should be on The Cutting Edge of this stuff and they are I mean incredible her every surgery she had went as smoothly as it could have possibly gone and every time she needed anything a central line placement she never had a line issue their Protocols are like as tight as you could possibly get their surgeons are the best of the best and the work that they do is incredible and they truly are saving lives but the nutrition end needs work it needs work I mean we cannot blanket recommend the food pyramid to kids with cancer kids with GI issues I mean I saw kids on the GI floor we were there for years and months at a time and I saw kids on the GI floor who had motility disorders who had huge distended bellies go to the cafeteria to get ice cream with their nurse and for breakfast I'd see a tray of Pancakes getting delivered and I it was like a knife to my heart because I knew what was what was going on at some point and even before we did no plant gaps I knew that was wrong and I knew they would respond negatively to that there's just not enough oversight on the dietary end and the work that like you're doing Dr Natasha Dr sha Baker and um all of these carnivore people and and uh Sally Fallon nourishing Traditions all of these different people who are talking about traditional diets hopefully it gets through at some point and um they can make these protocol changes that are going to really help these kids and I do see it happening right now even within the the medical community that my daughter is involved with so I'm hopeful that things will change yeah definitely quicker would be nice yeah definitely um yeah that that's a funny thing you we we get told to eat the you eat the pyramid all these sorts of things you look at the origins of of the food pyramid was completely made up it was just bureaucrat that just wanted to um you know that had had vested interest in certain things and bureaucratic you know incentives to to say what they said so it's actually not scientifically based and it's it was not even at the time it wasn't even like corrupt science it it was just not scientifically based it was bureaucratically based they they decided to do this for political expediency um Dr Paul for people don't know about the history on that just look up Dr Paul Mason has a whole talk about the history of uh the the food pyramid which is just wild that anybody would ever pay attention to that knowing the history there and even the Australian um guidelines food guidelines uh you know I carb all these sorts of things I I forget the exact quote but it it was something like even says like has a disclaimer like you know like these guidelines should not be you know like anybody with any sort of like metabolic issue or illness or anything like this does not apply to you this this this only applies to like healthy people and anybody with any sort of issue you like don't eat this this is this is horrible you know like it doesn't say it's horrible but it's um it's saying you know this is not suitable it's not appropriate for people with any sort of you know health issue or metabolic dysfunction problem is everybody has metabolic dysfunction if it's not appropriate for people with metabolic dysfunction wouldn't that wouldn't that mean that it causes metabolic dysfunction worsens metabolic dysfunction so if you did give it to a healthy person wouldn't that give them metabolic dysfunction and so and if it's not appropriate you know for people that are unwell and and really need good nutrition well then doesn't that mean that it's not really good for anybody and it's just not good nutrition you know because if you sick that's exactly when you need proper nutrition and so I that's the most important time and so if this if this these National guidelines aren't appropriate for people who are sick they're probably not good guidelines in the first place you know because it should help them when they're sick and and also keep you healthy when you know uh when you eat it that way too so it is funny that they don't even believe their own nonsense you know they're like yeah don't eat this if yeah you probably these are the guidelines but probably probably shouldn't eat it you know but then they go through then they send all the dietitians through training to learn that yeah but don't follow it if you're sick and and you're just not giving any other options yeah especially as a a parent we were so involved and probably to a point of total annoyance to her medical staff but we knew okay she did so well like when she was breastfed she was fine we had a little bit of constipation but I would take extra magnesium and she would go to the bathroom so it was an easy fix and we would just say to ourselves like how did she CL so quickly and we weren't eating standard American diet we were probably more paleo um because we avoided processed foods and ate somewhat healthy not nearly as healthy as carnivore no plant gaps but we were on the right track I guess um we certainly didn't have enough fat in our diet that was that was a problem um but we're like how is this child totally fine breastfeeding Healthy Grow growing chubby even like chunky baby very cute you know no no issues that you could see yet as soon as she started solids we're seeing these huge huge issues and fiber was another thing that was a huge issue for her that we weren't told any of this stuff we didn't know that feeding her fiber could cause ostomy prolapses and like you want to be scared be 3 hours away from a children's hospital with n Ines of intestine hanging out of your child's stomach out of your two-year-old I mean crazy gruesome it's like a horror film yeah what we went through and and what she went through really um but we didn't know any of this and then you get to the hospital and it's like oh yeah they probably shouldn't have any any fiber and you're like why didn't you tell me that probably should have said that yeah yeah so it's it's interesting even the fiber was a problem you know besides the carbohydrates even giving her um one time we we cooked some red peppers because they're they're low fod map so they don't ferment easily so we cooked some red peppers and put it over rice with some butter for her the next day OSI prolapsed going to the hospital for emergency surgery and you could see like the pouch went when the fiber emptied out that's when it happened so it was a direct correlation so it's not just the issue with the carbohydrates it's an issue with the fiber and no plant gaps and carnivore takes care of all of that there's no issue whatsoever she hasn't had any surgeries since we started and she had 16 wow well she had one surgery to get her line out but I don't count that as a surgery because it was quick and it was reversing you know what I mean yeah so no emergency surgeries yeah yeah those sorts of things are technically like you know procedure under anesthesia as well you know it's not like a whole surgery they're not operating they're just putting you asleep so they can do something a bit bit uncomfortable and unpleasant you know yeah it was in uh Interventional Radiology yeah so very quick yeah they just um it took like 15 minutes to to pull the line so and it was like a celebration for us of course CU we were reversing something and and you know when you have a central line you have a line especially you know for your audience who doesn't know you've got a line directly to your heart and sepsis is very easy to get it's an open wound on your chest that's covered with a little plastic bandage you can't get wet you can't go swimming that's for sure she couldn't take baths we had to you know wash her hair and a bin on the couch which is dehumanizing and in the summertime when we're going to the lake and doing summer activities she can't participate and can't bring her to the beach because you can't get any sand anywhere near the bandage so you're very limited in your activities and if you're on tpn for a certain amount of hours you've got that bag and you're following that child around and you can't tug on that line or you can bleed out so it's graphic but that's the severity I mean I say now taking care of her now is like taking it's like I have three healthy kids I have my son who's seven months old I have a three-year-old son and my daughter and feels like nothing compared to what we were doing on a daily basis before and she was getting this was a crazy thing too that I wanted to mention she was getting five iron in fusions a week she was getting five she was getting seven days a week of vitamin infusions wow so those are gone too her hemoglobin was low so five iron infusions a week and we just beef liver that's all she needed yeah right yeah such a simple fix yeah food they just needed food you know real food yeah wow well that's amazing um you know that all all these I mean I mean so many things you know I mean and I'm sure we we haven't even scratched the surface of all the different things like you said 16 surgeries and you know you don't have 16 surgeries without a lot of things leading up to each one of those things and and having such issues that like oh no no we need to go to surgery and so obviously that's you know obviously years of you you know I'm not telling you anything years of of constant uh concern and issues dealing with the with um those health um health problems and now you know like you said basically nothing comparatively just the sto who cares it's not that big of a deal you just change the bag and then you know run a catheter once a day just to just to make sure and um yeah that sounds much better the fiber is is another one we have all these issues where fiber or all these conditions where fiber is is completely contraindicated you you have you know um obviously ostomy um any anytime you're trying to rest the bowel you have you know infection you you're trying to treat the appendicitis conservatively or diverticulitis or an anastomosis you're reattaching the U sto um then you're saying hey no fiber no fiber no fiber no fiber no fiber it you know causes horm causes damage it can be a big problem and then as soon as that that's healed it's like oh get back on the fiber fiber is so good for you it's like well why wasn't it good for me 5 minutes ago you know I mean it's it's supposed to be vital it's supposed to be necessary it's supposed to be an essential nutrient you have to have fiber but now you're telling me that fiber is hurting me and hurting my daughter like well which one is it you know is it is it is it good then it should be good it should be helping the bowel it should be helping she has a bowel issue should be just tons of fiber that should be the the answer because fiber just fixes everything uh to do with your your intestines and of course no it doesn't it actually causes huge problems and and can kill you in that situation I mean realistically could kill you um like you had emergency surgeries you know you had volvulus you know volvulus people don't know that's when the the bowel twists and loops around itself and just Kinks off like a like a hose kinking off so it can't go anywhere this is a one way to and so if it if it can't go down builds up and has to go back out and people are vomiting um intestinal contents uh which is you know pretty pretty that happened rough yeah yeah that's usually how you find out you know is when is when you start vomiting uncontrollably like that and um so these are very very serious issues and they can they can kill you you know and um uh and fiber does that you know fiber can do that and so it's just like you know again you know if like oh you know don't have don't follow the guidelines if you know you have any health issues and don't eat any fiber if you have any intestinal problems it's like well then why are we saying that they're good you know in normal in other circumstances too maybe they're just maybe they're just bad I don't know you know I'm just throwing that out there just could just be bad overall you know but um yeah it's um I'm glad anyway that uh that uh you guys found this and um and are sharing this with other people as well and it's great that you know you guys have all followed suit have you um you said your husband essentially did a carnivore diet for for many years except you know this spinach um but uh how are you all doing and how are your kids doing on this way of eating yourselves we're great I was carnivore throughout most of my most recent pregnancy with my seven-month-old which was amazing actually it was my easiest pregnancy by far nice um in the very beginning I was having a of nausea and issues like that which I had had with other pregnancies so I called Dr plotner and she said you're going to have to eat 12 egg yolks a day put it in a qu of kefir and do it every single day so I did that and he is you saw him before our call he's very chunky and healthy um I'm still carnivore now I've been breastfeeding carnivore after birth I was carnivore um when I was pregnant I had a couple bouts with carbs just because but my recovery this time was incredible I I was able to have a home birth for the first time um so I was up and walking around right after birth and in contrast to my other two pregnancies my recovery was just night and day so unbelievably easy I felt strong even after giving giving birth I didn't feel this weakness like when I had my daughter I couldn't even stand up out of bed on day three they were like you're going to be going home you have to get up and go to the bathroom on your own so I did and I woke up with smelling salts in my face passed out on the toilet and five nurses around me I was just so weak after giving birth um and then with my son my first son I I couldn't quite take care of myself and I wasn't eating carnivore I and I was still malnourished from from having my daughter and living in the hospital eating that food uh so he was born at 29 weeks um but now he eats the same way we all do he does have fruit here and there because he's a little guy and he enjoys that so I let him have that um but extremely healthy and he was he was a preey was 29 weeks he's very healthy he's growing like crazy he's the size as as if he was uh born on time um but there is a big difference between my first two and my most recent son who I've breastfed carnivore he's huge I mean by four months old he was 18 pounds and now he's six months old or seven months old and he's 22 pounds I mean he's just a big boy so when you talk about genetic potential even breastfeeding babies are going to reach more of their genetic potential when they're being breast by carnivore and it wasn't something that I knew if it was possible or not um so I looked on YouTube and I found one other mom who had done it and I was like okay I'm gonna do it let's just see what happens uh and I had a lot of autoimmune issues myself so after I had Riley I got the was diagnosed and I went to a natural doctor and he he did tons of blood work and said you have autoimmunity in five of your bodily tissues out of like 21 so there's a lot of problems here and going carnivore completely stopped all that none of us take any medications none of us have to do anything to maintain our health um and my husband's lost tons of weight and feels amazing after living in the hospital and eating hospital food we all put weight on and we've all taken all of the weight off thank God so we all feel incredible and we've got more energy and and stamina than ever even waking up with the baby at night I still pop right out of bed in the morning and I'm ready to go yeah well that's amazing I'm so glad to hear you're all doing doing so well um yeah and I think it's obviously the most important time is is uh when you're developing and you know the contrast there is pretty significant right you have a you have this young girl obviously she had a lot of of medical issues but you said she was you know around 26 pounds at nearly 3 years old and now you have a you know a six-month old that's the six-month old and he was 22 pounds is that right very very big boy you know and and you know and I saw him he's not like he's obese or anything like that just just a nice happy baby you know so yeah that's really good I've seen you know the the the breast milk quality uh seems to change you well of course it's going to change with the with the dietary habits of the of the mother of course um but it's uh it it you know still seeing that in action is uh is pretty amazing you know I've seen women who have you know changed to a carnivore diet three months in and the baby just takes off you know they they're just on this you know trajectory and they're sort of 50th percentile and everything on bam you know they just go up all of a sudden they're 99th percentile and everything and and um and doing much much better and and developing faster and hting their Milestones more quickly you know they the this is this is something that's very scary um you know you know back in the 90s you people said you know started seeing things happening to younger and younger people and you know type two diabetes used to be called adult onset diabetes and fatty liver disease was was only uh something that would happen to like alcohol olcs you know like late stage alcoholics and then all of a sudden we see we're seeing like 10-year-olds with adult onset diabetes and fatty liver disease and they're like well how is this possible he's a kid you know he's not an adult how's he get an adult onset diabetes and he's never and he has fatty liver like only alcoholics get fatty liver his kid's never had a drop of alcohol in his life what the hell is going on and so instead of thinking about it for one second and say okay what changed they just said it's probably happening all the time we just didn't know us and you know and then they so laughable yeah and then they just say oh okay you know um you know and they renamed it you know type type 2 diabetes and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and you just sort of keep doing this you know and and just you know pretending that um that uh that we just didn't notice and we just had no idea and and um you know so we see this with you know with with all these issues now you know know that um that we're trying to to sort of make excuses for there's the the Milestones I saw um an article they were where they were talking about like pediatricians talking about changing how we approach Milestones that because more and more kids are missing their milestones and it's getting stretched out they're like okay well we need to change the Milestones you know so basically like it's okay to to not walk at this stage or to be speaking this stage or or be doing these fundamental you the these these these fundamental Milestones that that denote neurological and physical growth and development and we're saying and we're seeing that go out later and later and later which means you are slowing down you're having slow develop developmental delay right both neurologically and physically and you know walking it's okay if they don't walk up till you know however like two years it's like no that's it's not normal you know that's probably not okay but because we're seeing so much of it we're just saying it's fine no no it's not fine no that's not fine you know and we and we we can't accept we can't just accept that and just say like oh okay well I guess other kids are doing it too so it's all normal I guess if everyone's you know developmentally challenged then no one's developmentally challenged because that's that's the new normal like no I don't think we should accept that I think we should accept you know our kids getting harmed and not developing to their genetic potential and being seriously seriously set back for the rest of their lives um no I don't think we accept that I don't think we just just go you know go softly into the sweet night I don't think we do that I think we we kick up a fight and um and say no what the hell is going on why is it happening now and why is it happening to so many people um you know explain yourself figure it out don't just say like ah we'll just change the Milestones instead of actually investigating is why the hell everyone's missing their mileston Stones that's that's what a real scientist would do you know scientists and doctors you know should be you know it's the it's the you know the thrill of Discovery and and thinking about challenging uh sort of uh puzzles and saying okay well what's going on let's figure it out instead of doing that and being a real scientist or real doctor trying to affect change we're just saying you know what it's too hard button just change the Milestones you know it's like that's absolutely unacceptable but we're you know we're seeing um you know pediatrician organizations and and groups that that for some reason get to make these decisions just changing change or I don't know if they have or if they're just talking about it but you know at least talking about changing the milestones and stretching them out to to account for the this clear developmental delay which we should absolutely not accept no definitely not and I think that parents are so afraid to go against the grain they're so afraid to have that kid at the birthday party that you go no you're not having cake we don't do that we don't eat that food right and um kids actually want that they want nutritious food when you take away the processed food their body craves real nutrition and we're giving them you wouldn't give your child heroin because everyone else is giving them heroin yeah and that's the level of addiction that these foods are causing we have trouble staying off of these Foods right I mean I can't my own autoimmunity like Michaela Peterson talks a lot about this if I eat the wrong thing I'm down for a week I I can't function so I have to be 100% but the kids want to be as well and we have to remove these things from their diet and parents have to make these moves and take look at their own kids and go okay the the doctor is not going to come save you why isn't my child meeting these developmental um stages and I have a a couple of friends who have seen you know what we've done with our daughter and they've started to take healthier paths as well for their kids and my one friend told me she went to Starbucks with her husband to get a coffee and her daughters in the back were like Mom can we get a cake pop and she's like uh they just recently went gluten-free D free sugar-free which great first steps right at least we're cutting out a lot of process stuff not everyone's going to go full carnivore right away unless you have more of an extreme case but good first steps and she said you know honey um those have gluten and we're gluten-free now so we're not going to we're not going to get those today and her daughter instead of throwing a tantrum said okay Mom I don't want to eat anything that's not good for me can I get egg bites and she got her egg bites and I was like that's amazing right like you have children and you expect a tantrum right like as a parent you tense up and you're like what are they gonna do but really kids want to be involved they want to eat the right Foods um my older son will see my daughter drinking a a glass of kefir home fermented kefir and he's like can I have some and I'll go get him a glass and you would think this very sour drink that a child wouldn't want it but he loves it and you know we were at the shore last summer and I had an ice cream against my better judgment and I gave him a tiny spoonful of it and he spit it on the ground and that was the first time he ever had sugar and he hasn't had it since yeah wow he didn't like it he didn't like the taste um because he's never had that stuff and then my husband and I had a conversation about it we're like we're never doing that again that was a bad idea um but you do see kids do crave the healthy foods when you give them the right things I make um I make bacon wrapped livers for snacks for myself just because I'm breastfeeding and takes a lot out of you nutritionally and my kids will eat them like popcorn and I warm up a plate for myself and before I get to eat any they're gone cuz the kids took all of them so you would would think that my kids's not going to eat liver but when you do it as a family and they see you eating those foods and they see their siblings eating those Foods they they really do respond positively so what what's the recipe for the bacon wrapped liver I think that's probably on everyone's mind so how how how how do you cut the liver and and just like one full piece of bacon to how much liver and and do you bake it or how how do you put that how do you cook that yeah I just slice up I get pre- pre-sliced liver so it's cut like a/4 inch thick mhm and then I just cut it into like 2 in by 2 in squares Fold It Up wrap it in one slice of bacon and I'll do a whole sheet tray in the oven on 375 for like 15 20 minutes until it looks crispy and then I pull it and they're good to go nice yeah that's really good that's a good idea they're fantastic snacks especially if you're someone who is like more on the malnourished end or if you're breastfeeding or pregnant and you really want to get those organ Meats in that's a great way to do it just wrap it in bacon yeah great uh well that sounds awesome I'll probably try to do that um and so uh you yourself you are you've been studying nutrition and and doing coaching now yourself is that correct yeah I uh I have a coaching platform called um Christian Health Collective and we've got five other practitioners one more is joining shortly so we're all just holistic health coaches and um mental health coaches just trying to make the world a healthier Place how long have you been doing that for since all this happened or were you doing it before too no since all of this happened this was really my inspiration I never had to run in with health I always tried to stay healthy and um take care of myself but I did go more towards vegan originally and very common yeah that didn't work out very well it just usually it wasn't very helpful and I I got weak and um you know people don't realize the mental health issues that come with being vegan because you can't make hormones you need animal fat to make hormones you need um iodine from eggs and things like that or you're not going to produce hormones so I ended up on anti-depressants and it was very strange because it's not like me at all and then once I started eating meat again all the issues from veganism went away but I had never really gotten too far into Health until I had my daughter and I was kind of forced into it God really had a a plan for that and he he took the reins and uh showed us the way thank God yeah have you have you ever come across the Babylon be sort of satire it's like a Christian satire sort of online magazine I have seen some of it it's it's quite funny but they they they have some very clever things you know them and the onion they they very clever satire and you know it's um they they do a good job um but they they saw one that I thought was very funny which was which was uh was like this picture of uh Sam and Delilah and um you know Delilah regrets asking Samson about what gives him his strength after he dives into a Five Hour Diet tribe about the carnivore diet you know like that's awesome every time I see something like that I send it to my friends and they're like that that's you yeah at this point you know like once you get on the carnivore train and you realize all the benefits for your body I I could talk about it till I'm blue in the face and it it really is true you do go on a five hour rant about it yeah well you know the thing is too is that is that um people ask questions too you know when they're they're interested and they're curious and and they're and sometimes shocked and like wait you hold on what you know but that can't be right what about cholesterol what about fiber well what about you don't get all the nutrients well what about this and and they ask you know and so you know all right well you you asked you know and so um you know and it and it ends up drawing out that conversation and you know but um you I I can totally see how it's just like wow that that was a lot but um at the same time you know it's typically because you know the other you know the other person is engaged and is and is asking questions and discussing and you know bouncing ideas back and forth and trying to get their head around it you know and so it it it's you know it could be a long conversation but it is a conversation it's a back and forth you know you're not just sitting there going like you're going to listen to me godamn it you're going to listen to this cholesterol was a you know was a con and you know you have to hear me you know it's like you know they're there and they're engaged and they're asking questions or maybe even being challenging going like that can't be true well what about this and what about this you know um but you know there is a back and forth but yeah it can absolutely take a while but yeah I thought it was uh that was very funny with the Samson and Delilah thing yeah that's good well Jessica thank you so much uh for sharing your story and sharing your daughter's story that was absolutely amazing I'm sure a lot of people are going to get a lot out of that and hopefully this will reach people um who are in similar circumstances and maybe give it a try themselves um do you have uh you know online presence social media or or places that people can find your uh your coaching that people can can find you yeah I've I've been off social media until recently so my following is like close to zero which is fun with me but um at calth collective.org so the letter c and then Health collective.org uh that's our that's Christian Health Collective and people can go online to register for an email when the book comes out about my daughter's story it's called dying to thriving um and then they can also go on and schedule an appointment with me if they want to hear more I obviously can't give any medical advice but I can point them in the right direction for resources perfect well I'll put that up in the uh description and encourage everybody to go check you out more and um yeah and hopefully this can help uh with other people's situations as well Jessica thank you so much for coming on it's been an absolute pleasure yeah thank you for having me have a great rest of your day you too and thank you everyone for watching I hope you enjoyed that if you think this could help somebody please do share it with them and like and leave a comment as well and share it on social media to try to get the word out there so it's can get to the right people thank you very much and we'll see you next time hey guys thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say if you like it then please like And subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast and if you're on YouTube then please hit that little bell and subscribe and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out which should be every week if not more and if you could share this with your friends that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing thanks again guys