How Different Foods Affect Your Brain | Professor Annelise Barron

Welcome to the Plant-Free MD podcast with Dr. [music] Anthony Chaffy, where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to [music] optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically. Hello everyone. Thank you very much for joining me for another episode of the PlantFree MD podcast. I'm your host Dr. Anthony Chaffy and today I have a very special guest. I'm very excited about Professor Anaise Baron who is a professor in bioengineering at Stanford University and will be joining us to discuss her work and research and how that pertains to the carnivore diet. Uh, Professor Baron, thank you so much uh for coming to talk to us today. >> Thank you. >> I'm also a carnivore myself by the way. >> And also a carnivore yourself. Yeah, exactly. >> Almost six years. >> Oh, very good. Yeah. Okay. So, you haven't you haven't died from from ketosis yet, I see. >> No. >> Yeah. In fact, I just getting younger, aging in reverse, as they say. >> Oh, very good. Um, okay. So, for people who haven't come across, you've been on on on, uh, channels like Dave Mack, which I I really enjoyed that episode. If people haven't checked that out, please do go see that. But, uh, for people who haven't come across, you can please tell us a bit about yourself and a bit about your research and and why you came to carnivore in the first place and and what that did to your health. >> Okay. So um prior to January 2020, I was suffering from ill health. I was pre-diabetic. I had I was overweight. I had knee pain. I had plantar fascitis. I had skin tags. I had um you know just tiredness. And I'd been I'd tried um everything you can think of like green juicing. did that just got worse joint pain from the green juicing. Um just I you know Mediterranean diet. I tried all those things. None of them worked and I kept getting less healthy and it was actually getting to the point where it's hard to exercise. And then I had a friend um who told me about carnivore and then I saw um Dr. Shawn Baker >> on Joe Rogan and then got interested and tried it. Decided to try it. So I tried it January 2020. Every condition that I had has gone away and it also gave me, you know, I'm I'm a scientist. It gave me much better mental clarity. It really improved my mood overall to the point now that I feel almost imperturbable, which is great. >> You know, nothing upsets me. >> I can just roll with it. But I got really curious as I you know I became fascinated in the whole carnivore kind of global community having this conversation of which you know you are an important part also Carrie man I've been on his podcast a couple of times Dave Mack who does such a great job interviewing people who've changed their diet to carnivore or keto and changed their just their whole outlook on health and cured many conditions what feels like a cure >> with the idea A though if you go back to eating non-carn the symptoms do come back. So that's that's important. And at the same time I am a researcher at Stanford. I run a research lab and I've been working very actively since about 20 2010 on understanding the mechanism of Alzheimer's disease. If people look at my Stanford web page, which I'll send you a link to, and you can put it under the um in the show notes, most of the publications that they'll see relate to um my my lab's development of novel anti-infectives, antivirals, antibacterials, antifungals, antiparasitics. That's a major area of research for my lab. But meanwhile, in the background, we've been trying to understand the mechanism of Alzheimer's disease. And uh I became fascinated especially on your channel where you interviewed Mimi Morgan and showed you know her ability to put Parkinson's disease into remission where she had pretty severe Parkinson's you know limited mobility etc. many symptoms and she tried all the Parkinson's medications. She went carnivore and then did a rigorous exercise program and put the Parkinson's into remission, which is an amazing story. [snorts] And then I saw on Dave's channel, he has 22 cases of people who put multiple scerosis into remission. At the same time in my research I was seeing that Alzheimer's and Parkinson's uh appear to be related to chronic um infection with the herpes virus called human cytogallo virus and we have we have unpublished experimental data that we're writing up right now I and my collaborator Dr. Ben Reedhead and then Diego Mrrononei. They're at Arizona State University. They have an access uh to a large bio bank of people who died with Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. And Ben and Diego um analyzed tissues from these Alzheimer's and Parkinson's patients looking at the relevant brain regions, the veagal nerve, the cerebral spinal fluid, the transverse colon, and the salivary glands. and they find these infectious agents, neurotropic viruses. And neurotropic means a virus that actually um resides within the nerve body and travels through the nerve. Therefore, it can reach the brain very easily because the nerves go straight to into the brain with no bloodb brain barrier. So, putting it all together along with the rec recent papers that have shown that um epsene bar virus is likely the cause of of multiple sclerosis. >> Right? So, I'm seeing in my research Alzheimer's or Parkinson's is ultimately viral and so is multiple scerosis and we see carnivore putting these diseases into remission. So, what I'm very excited about is the fact that a no carb diet, a zero carb diet, but a very especially a no sugar diet, >> allows the human body to clear these these viral infections to the point that symptoms cease and people can function normally again. And that's really a story that should be the headline in the New York Times. >> Yeah. >> Just I I actually don't know exactly the number that suffer from multiple scerosis, but you know Parkinson's is 1.1 million in the US alone. >> Multiple scerosis is probably at least of that order and it's very limiting and it shortens life. Yeah. >> So, people need to know that they might be able to put these diseases into remission or at least improve their symptoms if they adopt a carnivore diet. >> Yeah. And I' I've certainly seen that as well. We spoke before we we came on and started filming that that we're getting ready to publish a case series and we we ended up going um with sort of a smaller number, sort of 10 to 12, but we I mean, we could have done 50. I mean, because there's so many people that have done this and and not just reversed their symptoms of MS, but actually have have their uh lesion shrinking on MRI, which really hasn't been demonstrated in the literature before. And uh and we and we're having these before and after MRIs, which I think is is going to be a very powerful part of that case series and and hopefully get people to sit up and pay attention and then maybe even spark a, you know, an RCT or something like that or help get funding for something like that. Um, but I mean I've had I've had patients come into me who've had MS and one one lady was uh pretty upset because she had spoken to her neurologist. Her neurologist had had basically battered her and said that, you know, doing a carnivore diet was was going to be detrimental to her health and but she was feeling great. So she said, "Actually, I want to come off medication. I don't want to go on more medication." And he browbeed her and said that that she was being reckless with her health. she was going to be in a wheelchair, you know, within a few years and she was going to die if she didn't um do exactly what he said. And I'm sure that he felt that that was the case. But she had already seen improvements by doing this. And to the point that she said, "I don't think I need this medication anymore." >> Yeah. And so she uh left his office in tears and which is, you know, very poor bedside manner. If you're ever leaving a patient in tears, you you've messed up. Even if you're correct, even if you had the right treatment in life, like that was going to save them, that was the wrong way to bring that about. I mean, this is this is a people profession. I mean, let's let's not forget that. >> And so, she was actually more determined not to listen to him after that conversation. >> And so, she she stopped taking the medication. Eight months later, she had she was due for an MRI and she went into him and her lesions had reduced by 40% in eight months. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And he even admitted. He said, "Look, I have never seen this before. I've never heard about this happening before. I cannot explain this. I have no idea what happened here." And she said, "Well, you know, I I told you about the carnivore diet thing." And do you think that might be it? Absolutely not. It's like, "Okay." [laughter] So, very close-minded, unfortunately. Others aren't so close-minded, and they're they're seeing massive improvements in their patients, and they're saying, "Okay, I I want to know more about this. What's going on?" But she basically uh basically fired him as a doctor and and and didn't go back to him. But she um she's been doing great. She's been doing absolutely fantastic since then. And she has no no symptoms anymore. She's completely recovered from a >> symptomological point of view. She hasn't had another follow-up MRI since. But so we don't know how how her lesions are doing. But but her dayto-day life is is normal again, which is the whole point. >> Exactly. That makes me so happy to hear. And I believe that similar results will be attainable for almost anyone who's willing to give it a serious try. And and you know, I I I try to convince people that I care about, you know, to try a carnivore diet. And >> I have I think I've had four or five of my friends start doing it. And actually all of them have had dramatic improvements in their health. And you know I'm 5, just turned 57. So I have a lot of friends that are around say 52 to 58. >> And you know it can take 20 years off you. You know at that age in your 50s the way you take care of yourself can either make you look older than 52 or 55 or younger. And I think um it can even be an extraordinary tool applied, you know, late, you know, in your 50s if I think if we you we were talking about um like I have a son who's 14 and a half and he's mostly carnivore whenever he can be >> and it has dramatic benefits for him as well. So, I think that it's great for kids to eat this way, >> young people, older people. And oh, by the way, I I'm having this interview like from my ranch in Northern California. So, we just had our first calf. So, I I just bought the ranch a year and a half ago. So, we had our first calf was born four days ago. We're so excited. >> Oh, very good. Yeah, I heard about that. That's that's that's sort of my dream. You're you're sort of you just went out and homesteading got a ranch up there and got a whole bunch of land. >> Yeah, you got to come look at Sysu County. It is so beautiful here. >> Yeah, I bet. I've been I actually totally aside, but but as far as housing prices have just gone crazy and I I I probably shouldn't do this because I I'll mess up the market for myself, but I started watching um these things started coming up on Instagram where like basically you can get a a castle in France or Italy for like 800 grand. I mean, I like I'm not I'm not joking. Um Charlemagne's son's royal residence in France is this massive castle with a curtain wall on 27 acres, 33,000 square ft of living space. It's >> wow >> on the market [laughter] for €800,000. It's like, >> you know, the average house price in Perth, I mean, you can get a shack. You could not get a shack for that. >> Right here, listen to this. In Sysiu County, I got 167 acres, a house, huge house >> built in 1883 with five bedrooms and three full bathrooms, you know, all kinds of barns. There's like five barns, workshop. It's just just like so many outbuildings, everything in great shape >> for 925. >> That's amazing. >> With with the farm equipment. >> Oh, nice. >> So, yeah. So I, you know, I also have a house down in the Bay Area, but I don't own it because in the Bay Area, it would cost me two million for like a a house on a quarter acre. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And not even a nice house. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. [laughter] >> It sounds like Perth is like the Bay Area. So my point is we're going to be getting back to the land. We're going to be raising cattle. >> I don't think 27 acres is enough for you. >> No. >> Um Yeah. >> Yeah. You need at least like 150. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, you when you're in your castle, you can start, you know, invading [laughter] and uh just start taking over. >> Yeah. Start taking over the lands around you, you know. >> Exactly. You're fortified. That's That's a good point. >> Exactly. Well, come on and try it, you know. [laughter] >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Oh, but it's such an exciting time and I have to say I am overjoyed to hear that you're working on publishing a case study. >> Yeah. Yeah. And how long do you think that'll take now? Like roughly >> We're we're getting pretty close. We're we're we're pretty close to finish up the writing up side of it. Um and we're just we're waiting on some of the uh follow-up MRIs. That's that's the main thing is looking at the before and after MRIs because I think that's going to be the more p most powerful part of this. So um you know, I had Dr. Sarah on the on my podcast and and within six months she her lesions actually shrank by 50%. And she was she was wheelchair bound and she's um you know she's a professor down in um in Florida but she was early 30s and she was wheelchair bound and had had widespread lesions and within 6 months she was out of her wheelchair she was back doing ballet and her lesions had shrunk by 50%. So >> that's amazing. I mean, yeah. I mean, the the amount of hope that this can can give people and and if if people treating you other neurologists, etc. that are treating MS actually look at this and go like, okay, well, it's not going to cause harm, you know, and and maybe this can help. Maybe I should start looking into this, you know, get at least give them something that they can say, okay, well, actually, this there might be something here might not hurt to try it, you know, and uh and just see what happens. So, and then hopefully spark uh some interest in in like a an actual interventional trial and see and see if this how many people this would help and and and um as a percentage and a randomized control trial and so so on. So, yeah, I'm very excited about that. Hopefully, we'll be able to get it out um by early next year as long as we can get all the MRIs done. And I would just like to mention so we've been talking about multiple scerosis and it was published I it's probably now three years ago there was a huge study of the US military where they looked at people that were diagnosed with multiple scerosis and they correlated it with um diagnosis of monucleiosis which is known to be caused by Epstein bar virus infection. Usually that would be like your first infection with EBV would cause kind of this chronic fatigue that um manifests as what they call monucleiosis and then they would see that you know some period of time after that >> then they would be diagnosed with multiple scerosis and so I think it's becoming accepted now that at least a cause of multiple scerosis there may be others >> is this Epstein bar virus infection Epstein bar virus is a herpes virus that once you contract ract it, your body cannot fully eliminate, but you can keep it in, you know, kind of a quiescent um remission type state if your immune system is strong. And then um my colleague at Stanford, William Robinson, just published a paper four days ago in which he also showed that lupus arithmtosis appears to also be caused by Epstein barus infection and its effect on B cells of the adaptive immune system. So that means that even you know eventually it we can probably not only put multiple scerosis into remission with carnivore but quite likely also lupus arithmettosis and I've definitely seen many cases on Dave Mack's channel of people that were suffering with severe psoriasis. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes for 20 years you know having it never clear up for like 20 years. There's this one man and he did carnivore and again it took it seems like it takes about six to nine months when there's a severe illness >> you know neurological illness of you know psoriasis they they don't even really know the cause >> I mean not the way they do for like I think they're coming to feel they understand it for MS >> and this is a big breakthrough for lupus and then what I work on is Alzheimer's and Parkinson's I And more recently I started a project um on brain cancer glyopblastoma multififor >> and um we are finding the same infectious herpes virus associated and um something else I need to talk about um a a a bacterium in the mouth which people actually have all heard of because they know the term gingivitis for gum disease. So the organism that causes gingivitis is called pferamonus gingivalis. It's an anorobic bacterium. It's unusual because it does not eat sugar. It eats amino acids and peptides. It's an asacryic anorobic bacterium. But it makes many virulence factors that um are really strong proteolytic enzymes and then also enzymes that um mod well they modify your immune cascade proteins and so a poor pherommonous gingivolis infection will essentially turn off your antiviral immunity. that was published in 2021 and then it's been verified by other laboratories. So if you have, you know, this bacterium growing in the mouth, now you've lost your antiviral response and then there's eight different herpes viruses that are endemic in the human population, meaning most of us carry some of them. And by the time we get older, say over over the age of 55, probably most of us carry four of them of the eight at least. And those I truly believe that most chronic diseases are related to a co-infection of pferommonous gingivolis which as I mentioned doesn't eat sugar and then these herpes viruses that everybody has. They're just endemic in the human population. But what I was confused about is why was Dave Mack seeing so many people, you know, 22 in his playlist on multiple scerosis who have been able to put MS into remission. Um, you know, and he always they always say when people talk about the symptoms that improve on carnivore, one of the first things they notice is that their gum health gets much better. Like their gums become like pale pink and tight to the tooth. No more gum recession. The gums will actually come back, you know, which my dentist told me was impossible without grafting, >> but your gums will come back to look like a, you know, a child's gums. >> And they at the same time they noticed um halattosis, bad breath goes away and bad breath is caused by these anorobic bacteria. They create that bad smell. So we already know from all these testimonials Dave has 1300 and I would say a good 700 have commented on the gum health aspect periodontal health their periodontal health gets better. I was so confused like well why would cutting out sugar make this poor ferommonous gingivolis basically a meat eatating bacterium >> go away? Then I realized I found in the literature. Well, guess what? Pferommonus gingivolis really thrives in the presence of candida albvocans which is a fungus that loves sugar. >> And the reason it helps pferommonus is that it consumes oxygen voraciously and this is an anorobic bacterium. So they form like dual bofilms just growing together. So as soon as you stop eating sugar the candida dies. The poor ferommonis can't live without the candida. >> And then your antiviral immunity comes back and your MS symptoms go away. Your lesions heal because you're eating such wonderful, perfectly nutritious meat. >> Mhm. >> I think you know that's the answer. And it look this is the main reason I wanted to come on your podcast you know >> is to say that based on all of what I have come to understand only some of which is yet published but I still want to say it now because people's lives hang in the balance a carnivore diet will not only you know prevent and put into remission multiple scerosis um we've seen some cases of Parkinson's like me Morgan. Um, but I think it should prevent Alzheimer's disease, especially if you couple it, you know, a a pretty strict carnivore diet, if you couple it with an exercise program that is serious, fairly serious. >> Um, I think you can you can do your you can, you know, that's the most you could do to prevent Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, I think. And you know it is partially genetic these diseases. You know the biggest risk is this APOE epsilon 4 alil um in Alzheimer's it can also affect Parkinson's risk you know but it is known that just because you have those high-risisk alals it doesn't mean you will get those diseases you can still prevent it with your lifestyle choices. So >> yeah. So well I mean yeah I mean and and that's the whole thing in genetics. It's the genetic predisposition and environmental trigger. If you have the genetic predisposition but you don't get the trigger, you don't get the disease. And and vice versa. You might have the trigger but you don't have the genetics. You know it's not it's not going to it's not going to happen. So you have this you know penetrance idea that that you know not everybody with the gene will get the disease. Um I think that that's really really interesting. I I actually just made a recent video arguing basically stating a couple proofs that that I think show that humans are not designed to eat carbohydrates. And one of them was was what you point out there is that our oral biome gets gets completely disrupted when you eat carbohydrates and it breeds for bacteria that rot our teeth and that cause cavities and that that no animal in the wild eats a natural diet that rots their teeth because if their teeth rot and fall out, they can't eat and they'll die. And so your oral health is a window to your overall health, especially your cardiovascular health. And um and that that if you're eating something that's going to damage your oral health, you could very well be damaging your overall health. There's actually recent um studies that that further your po point about uh perphonous gingivitis, which is it's showing up in atheroscllerotic plaques now. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. And so we're looking at heart disease and that this is why we see such a strong relationship between poor dentition and rotting teeth and cardiovascular disease. It seems that this bacteria is getting into uh our our arteries, the lining of our arteries and damaging them and potentially are um agroenic. So I think that's that's a really important one. and and um very simply you you just change the way you're eating and all of a sudden this oral biome changes to a more healthy healthy oral biome. That should be pretty pretty conclusive evidence that you're you're eating correctly. If you're eating anything that rots your teeth, you can pretty much safely say that that's probably not that's not designed for us. It's it's disrupting our normal homeostasis. Um the other thing um I was going to say was that I'm I've always sort of been trying to figure out why there's all these different sort of things like so there's a Dr. freed in 1991 he published a paper arguing that the idea about autoimmunity the body just attacking itself um you know just at will it didn't really make sense and when I was taking immunology I don't know 20 something years ago um I was taking postgraduate immunology before I went to medical school I mean that that's what was was described it's just like yeah body can't attack itself these cells are are um our immune cells are matured in a thymus and test against every single anti antigen and if they have even a weak reaction uh they're killed and they're not allowed out in systemic circulation. So in the textbook it said, "Okay, well what about autoimmunity?" And this says, "Yeah, something goes wrong with that. We don't know what it is. >> They don't know. They don't understand." >> Yeah. >> And I I actually teach immunology at Stanford. >> Mhm. >> I teach a class called bioengineering innate immunity. So we focus more on neutrfils, macrofasages, natural killers, and and and these [clears throat] sorts of immune cells as well as host defense peptides >> which are part of the innate immune system. And we teach about, you know, this is typically a class with like 22 PhD and master students in it. >> Mh. >> And I teach about the autoimmune diseases. And once you really delve into the literature about psoriasis, lupus, multiple scerosis. I mean, for most of them, you'd be amazed. I think the the the average person would be really amazed how poorly these conditions are understood. M >> the cause and and sometimes it almost seems in the literature like they're not that curious about the root cause. They're more interested in getting a deep understanding of the pathology which is easier. >> Mhm. >> Right. Oh, I wanted to mention, you know, there's this classic paper, I don't know if you've seen it, from 1973. It's called let me just uh read you the um the title is role of sugars in human neutrfilic fagosytosis and this is a I don't know why this this paper is still the best paper and the clearest demonstration that sugar ingestion weakens the human innate immune system. In particular, neutrfils are white blood cells that are the most numerous white blood cells in your bloodstream. And you know, you make like 80 million. It's you just make massive numbers of new neutrfils every day. They they live about five or six days. And their role is to sense the presence of bacteria in places they shouldn't be, bacteria, viruses, you know, cellular debris. and then engulf it. They they basically eat bacteria and then destroy the bacteria. So that's called faggoytosis. So this 1973 study is fascinating because this investigator, he got human volunteers and he gave them 100 grams of either a sugar solution like sucrose, fructose, he gave also orange juice, 100 grams of orange juice. And then he took a blood draw um at 30 minutes 1 2 4 1 2 3 and 5 hours and he extracted the neutrfils and looked at their ability to do their job engulfed bacteria >> and basically he showed that the neutrfils were crippled in their ability to do their job for up to five hours. >> Yeah. Wow. And it's also been shown that you know in diabetics have chronically high blood glucose right because they're not controlling their blood sugar properly. So they're they have elevated blood sugar you know their neutrfils also have impaired ability to clear bacteria. So now let's think about the fact that you know we've you've seen over and over again people that have inflammatory bowel disorder, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis. I forgot to mention I had ulcerative colitis gone. >> Yeah. And I had had it for I had had it for eight years >> and I never went to the doctor because I don't trust them. [laughter] >> You know, you if once you really are around a lot of doctors and you teach immunology and realize they don't even really know what they're doing. >> Yeah. >> You just say, you know, I'll do my I'll I'll take my chances and figure it out myself. [laughter] So, you know, think about how your gut, it's all about keeping bacteria in the right place and not having ulceration of the gut walls. You need all of your immune cells working properly. Sugar impairs this. What I'm really fascinated by still, and I know this is something that you're interested in, is why do plants that are not sugary >> still also cause issues? And I know that they do. Yeah, >> I know they have lectins, they have anti-nutrients, they have toxins, >> but you know, I think once you hit the age of about say 42, >> you can't get away with, >> you know, eating omnivorous any more without your health just declining steadily. >> Yeah. And that was that was like Dr. Freed, you know, he argued that basically explaining these diseases through an autoimmune lens that the body's attacking itself. He said, "This doesn't make sense. This has never actually been shown that this is possible. There's all these steps missing and that that that cannot be satisfied by the immune system just attacking itself." But all of those all of those conditions were satisfied by the known consequences that plant lectins have in the human body that had actually been explained 15 years prior to that in the late '7s. And so he was arguing that things like MS and Hashimoto's and Crohn's and all these things and listing by name like these are from plant lectins and he sort of gave a brief description as to why he thought that for each one and and that's what I see. I mean, I see people with they're having even they're having a mostly carnivorous diet, they eat a salad, bam, they'll have a flare up. Or maybe they'll have pork or chicken that's been fed soy and corn and that can give them a flare up as well. Be very strict to just beef and water. Um, and then some people who are even more more sensitive, they have to be just grass-fed and finished beef, lamb, and water as well. And I and so I think there's um you know I I I do think there's a there's a plant toxin lectin sort of component there. We look at celiac disease we call that an autoimmune disease but now it's considered a gluten mediated autoimmune disease. Gluten is a lectin and this sticks and it glutenates our vi in our in our small intestines, sticks them together, damages them and then in some unlucky few the body mounts a large response to that and maybe attacking the lectins or maybe the lectins are putting some sort of antigens on the on the cells and making them be attacked. But regardless, you get damage to the gut. But then when you stop eating the lectins, the damage stops completely and then the gut can reheal and in four to six weeks completely brand new. Even though those antibodies stay elevated for over 3 years after your last exposure to gluten. So that's not an autoimmune disease. The body's not attacking itself. It's not sensitized to itself. It's attacking something else or something else is >> is is is there's some sort of intermediary. And I think that's what's going on with the rest of autoimmune issues. And the really interesting part from what you're bringing up is that I I haven't figured out okay so why do lectins do this for some people and like wheatum and they get celiac or someone gets Hashimoto's or someone gets ulcerative colitis and others don't you know is there some sort of combination with epstein bar virus or some of these viruses and things like that that then work in combination and sensitize you and then when those lectins come in you're done or or something else or some sort of combination thereof. I think that would be really interesting to find out. >> Yeah. And so, um, oh, and let me mention, I forgot I also had Hashimoto's and completely >> combination of carnivore plus I did a 40-day water fast that completely. >> Yeah, I didn't eat anything just water for 40 days. >> I need to do that again because it was so healing. >> And, you know, I just want to mention like the people like Michaela Peterson who has to keep her diet super simple, right? um the people that are more sensitive, they actually it's it's really wonderful that they share their stories because we learn so much from these people that are more sensitive. >> And I I think probably all of us would optimize to a greater degree and faster if we were like you. You're pretty much pure lion diet most of the time, I think. >> Yeah. No, I'm not. >> You're not putting mushrooms and onions in your >> God. No. No. I know. I know what's in them. So, yeah. No. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, we I think that that basically and and some people react to eggs and it's really interesting like I've noticed a lot of people have a kind of an unusual relationship with eggs, which you know technically are carnivore, but a lot of people like they they'll eat eggs for a while and then they just have to stop eating eggs. They like they can't like somehow they can't eat eggs anymore. Nobody's that way with steak. Yeah, >> you know, or just good cuts of beef. >> So, I think we'd probably all be healthiest on beef salt water. And I really would love I want to say something to all the people who are listening who may be suffering from any of the conditions that were mentioned here. >> Mhm. >> You have to be patient because, you know, as Dr. Chaffy said it takes your body a significant amount of time to heal depending on how bad the damage is. And so Mimi Morgan, she needed she said 6 to9 months for her neurological symptoms to go away. Um this there's another woman who's recently did a podcast with Dave Mack. Her name is Vita Evenson and she was suffering from recurrent herpes outbreaks for like eight years that were very serious. Shingles, HSV, just covering her face, her arms, her body >> when and uh she had been vegan for eight years, raw vegan and then she finally in desperation tried carnivore and that cleared it for her. But >> it took six months until she stopped getting outbreaks. So, I just want people to understand that if you have a neurological condition and you tried conventional medicine and you'd like to try carnivore, you need to stick with it and give it time because your body can't heal overnight. >> Yeah, definitely. And you know, to your point as well, I mean, I think the reason that we're seeing people I I've seen probably the two most dramatic things that I've seen rec people recovering from when they go carnivore would be definitely autoimmune issues and then also um just as importantly and just as dramatically neurological conditions. I mean Dave Max's a perfect example. He had a stroke and um subactor hemorrhage and when he was 18 19 years he's had has severe rights sided weakness in both his upper and lower limbs and then within 3 months of going and he had done Atkins he' done sort of keto sort of things and it wasn't until he went carnivore 3 months later all of a sudden his strength started returning he wasn't limping as as um noticeably and and he could run up and down stairs when he was basically a huge fall risk and you have to cling on to the railing when he would go up and downstairs and and now he's basically normally still it's not 100% he doesn't have 100% return of his strength but it's significantly better and that is not supposed to happen. I mean we say >> and think about this >> he was 17 when he had that stroke and he's now 50 >> and so the healing occurred when he was like 47 >> when this he had had the stroke had been 30 years earlier. The fact that you can heal something like that you're absolutely right. Medicine says you can't. >> Yeah. But you can >> you can Yeah. And >> that's why he did his channel because he was so upset that the medical establishment didn't know. >> Yeah. Well, it's also just important to get out. I mean, because, you know, we don't know what we don't know. And so if if just because we don't know something doesn't mean that someone is doing it on purpose and holding it from you. But we it is imperative to get that out there that someone can actually recover significant function after 30 years. And so why would that be? Well, it may just be that you haven't been giving your body the nutrients that it needs to regrow, repair, and recover. And as I there's a there's a study came out of um Oxford University 2008 and they looked at just you know people they tracked different people with different and they checked their B12 levels and did annual MRIs and they found that the people that had under 500 pom moles per liter which are the units they use which sort of translates to roughly 700 pigs per milliliter in America that below that after 5 years they actually had demination of their white matter and so you know because you have because you're chronic you're constantly turning over breaking down and turning over your cells including your mileination in your in your white matter in your brain and if you bringing that down but you don't have enough B12 to rebuild it because B12 is required for DNA synthesis then you're you're going to get the breakdown but you're not getting the repair and you're going to atrophy and so they were finding brain atrophy and and um you were actually losing white matter in the yeah you're getting demalination you're losing white matter and and brain stems were were um thinning out we see this in vegan and vegetarian populations as well. >> So dangerous. >> Yeah, it is. And so below 500 or 700 for American numbers, people's brains were actually shrinking on MRI by 2 and a half% after 5 years. >> Oh my gosh. >> And that under 300 307 pom moles per liter be maybe around 500 pics per milliliter in the US. They were shrinking by 5 12% per year or per per 5 years. And so, you know, when we look at brains and you you'll see as as people get older, the brain just starts to atrophy and shrink. The ventricles get larger. I actually have some some images I might pull up um and then massive sort of differences in um in brain size. And we say, well, that's normal age- related atrophy. And well, what if it's not normal? Because no other animal just rots their brains as they get older and their brains just shrink down. It's really only us. And we call that normal because we've only had CTS and MRIs for half a century. And during that whole time, we're just seeing the brain sort of shrink as we age. So we just say, "Ah, that's normal." Well, what if it's what if it's not age related atrophy? What if it's malnutrition over time? I mean, even just losing Yeah. Just losing 1.1% of your of your brain volume per year, which you'd get under 300 pamles per liter. Um, after 30 years, you're losing 30% or more of your brain. I mean that that's that's gonna that's going to be the actually I'm gonna I'm gonna show this this image. This this will >> yeah show that >> out. Let me see here. So I'm I'm sure you know this but just for for people watching this is this is a a child's brain. So this is like a 2-year-old child's brain. This is a CT scan. So this would be this would just be a normal scan. So you'll see that the these little sort of impressions here, these sort of crescent lines, those would be the the ventricles. And you sort of see little impressions here of the temporal horns. And so the the black spaces would be space basically where CSF would be going around cerebral spinal fluid. And you see here there's there's no space around the outside. The brain is flush with the skull. A lot of brain there. And actually that's important because the the growing brain actually pushes out on the inside of the skull case and actually that's what makes the skull grow. So it needs to be like that. Okay. So what happens when we go over here and are you able to see that the change in pictures there? >> Okay. So this image here on the right that looks much more typical of a just a normal 40-year-old brain. So now you can see those ventricles are are very well defined. They sort of have open spaces. You're seeing this um uh the open sort of ventricles in the back and you're seeing a very clear um space in between the brain and the skull, right? And we would just say that's normal. That's a normal adult brain. And then we go over here and this would be a typical 80-year-old brain probably have with a touch of dementia and sort of losing some of their memory and faculties and things like that as you would expect because the brain is so atrophied. These massive ventricles, huge spaces here, big temporal horns and then big wide open spaces around the brain. This is this is why when we get older, there's little vessels, blood vessels that that come down from the dura, which would be stuck to the skull and uh the brain. And so that can get sort of pulled and taught and then you fall and it smashes around. You can tear those little little vessels, all those little veins. You get a subdural hematoma that can press on the brain. That can be life-threatening. Uh you might might need surgery. I've done a lot of those surgeries in the middle of the night for people. And so that would we would say that's a normal a normal age- related atrophy. If you showed that to a radiologist and said that's an 80-year-old man, is there anything wrong with it? He'd basically say no, that's normal age related atrophy. >> I don't think that's normal because again, if you if this is a 40-y old >> nutrition. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, that's it. If this is a 40 and and and that's just B12. So if if this is a 40-year-old and you're losing 1% of your brain per year, like that is you at 70 just with the B12. We're not even talking about vitamin D3 or choline, creatine, coritine, DHA, EPA, etc., which are all necessary for the maintenance of the brain and certainly the development of the brain. >> Um, and we're just talking, >> not to mention statins too, right, which are going to cause more brain atrophy. Well, because the brain is made out of cholesterol and there are no end of studies that you can you can find in the literature describing how disrupting the normal cholesterol metabolism of the brain causes serious neuro neurodedevelopmental issues and neurocognitive issues and um disease basically. And that's exactly what statins do. They cross a bloodb brain barrier and disrupt the normal cholesterol metabolism of the brain. And even if you want to argue that cholesterol in the bloodstream can be agogenic, the cholesterol in the brain has nothing to do with it because it stays in the brain. It's past the bloodb brain barrier. It's just being used as a physical building blocks and material for the brain which is necessary. So disrupting the brain's production of cholesterol is a is a bad idea no matter how you look at it. >> Exactly. >> And so >> I can't believe that people so many people are still taking statins. But listen, I understand [clears throat] people trust their doctors. I can't even get my own dad to stop taking statins. >> I can't get my own dad [clears throat] to do carnivore, and believe me, I've tried. So, >> yeah. Well, hopefully they come around. Um, but yeah, but I think this is definitely malnutrition over time. And in fact, I know this is malnutrition because this isn't actually an 80-year-old brain, and this isn't actually a 40-year-old brain. This is a six-month old little girl who's a child of vegetarian parents. This is a case report that's actually in the literature and yeah, she had B12 deficiency. And so this 80-year-old looking brain is actually a six-month old baby. >> That is so sad. >> It is. And it could not develop because of the lack of B12 and choline, creatine, carnitine, DHA, EPA. 20% of the brain is DHA that only comes from meat. And um and then this was after the second image, the 40 looking year old looking brain was after 6 months of or sorry 5 months of B12 daily B12 uh replacement. >> Wow. >> So massive improvement just with the B12, right? But then notice this looks like a 40-year-old brain. This doesn't look like a 2-year-old brain or a one-year-old brain. >> Right. That's a fantastic >> Yep. >> Yeah. And so that's >> doesn't miss this make you realize doc uh Anthony that you should like in time you know you're still very young >> I just would say like you know 44 is considered extremely young for a doctor or an academic >> you know if someday you could do MRIs on omnivores at a certain age >> you know say a certain number pick three ages and then people that have been carnivore for at least five Yeah. >> And just and just compare the brain scans, you know, honestly, that would be incredibly convincing. >> Yeah. Well, I would I would actually be Yeah. I mean, you could almost do that, you know. Um I don't know if you come across Maggie White, but I did a >> Oh, yeah. I was just thinking of her. She's 83 and she's been a carnivore 60 years >> and she looks amazing. >> Yeah. And she and she's physically fit. She runs her own ranch. She's out there with the cows day, you know, at 5:00 a.m. every day. And she's she's a worker. like she she has more energy than I do. I mean she and she just works. She's got to go fast fast fast. I mean she's looking over things. I'm like I don't I'm not [laughter] I'm not doing it that fast. >> And um because you know she's the only one doing it. So she's like I got to get it done. I got to go quick. And that's just her her mentality and and work ethic. And I would bet that her brain is going to look more like the 20-month old baby as opposed to >> Yeah. You know, if you could get her to consent, it'd be hard to doing an M MRI of her brain and then just pick like 10 other 83 year olds that >> eat a standard American and pick some [clears throat] that have been taking statins for like 10 years and just do Maggie's brain versus their brain. I think, wow, that would just knock. >> You could publish that in Nature Medicine. >> That would be really interesting. And you know, even just looking on Rikopedia and saying like, okay, this is this is a normal age related atrophy and just say like it's normal normal normal normal Maggie. >> Oh yeah. And that is while we're talking about brains and carnivore and she's like again she's a very unusual example of someone who's carnivore because she likes to be and it was easy. >> She has her own cattle >> and you know where she lives in Canada, it's not easy to grow vegetables. She's kind of remote so it's not easy to buy vegetables. So forget the vegetables, right? Just that's how it happened for her. But she is an incredibly instructive case study because of that. I wanted to mention two other things. One, cardiac. I've seen now three cases of people that had hearts that were um neurologically uh unhealthy where they had skipped beats or you know Carrie man had pro something like progressive congestive heart failure since he was a toddler and had worn heart monitors and been in the hospital many times for um his heart just not um the ejection fra volume was too low. >> Mh. But I've seen then the people that just just had skipped beats. Um carnivore can completely heal that within about a year. >> Now the heart, you know, the heart and the brain are the the organs in the human body that have the most neurons. And I don't know whether the heart can also be affected by neurotropic viruses but it's possible >> because I think you know you're right you nutrition and just giving the body enough nutrition the right molecules the right >> I you know I do supplement vitamin C because after 5 years of carnivore my vitamin C levels were very low. Now maybe that was okay. Maybe that's like actually normal. >> Mhm. But I think extra vitamin C can't hurt you. So I just take vitamin C in a capsule. >> It's an antioxidant. That's I just take vitamin D, magn magnesium, and vitamin C. Those are the things I supplement. >> I think that's sufficient. But um you know the fact that I I you you mentioned atherosclerosis and this pferommonous gingivolis organism and um I think that plaques whether it's atheroscerosis in the blood vessels or the corateed artery or the plaques in the brain that form in amalloid or Parkinson's I believe those are actually a response to infection and it's a consequence of a weakened immune system which in turn is a consequence of ingesting sugar and vegetables. >> So I you can imagine how this entire world is going to be turned on its head when some group of people begin to understand that an all meat purely meat diet is going to give you the best longevity the best experience of your life because you'll feel better. You'll have more energy like Maggie. But then here's the other thing, mental health, right? So, you're probably familiar with Dr. Chris Palmer, Harvard Psychiatry, and Dr. Georgia Eid, Harvard Psychiatry. They both, you know, are treating clinicians in psychiatry. And they've both written books. Um, Dr. Palmer's came out in November 2022. Dr. Eids, I think in 2020, late 2023, change your diet, change your mind, and his is called Brain Energy. So they both observe that a ketogenic diet in Chris Palmer's case or carnivore in Georgia's so she actually you know advocates for carnivore >> can cure you know anxiety depression bipolar OCD you know these mental illnesses that you know in the old days people thought of as like a thought disorder like oh you're just not thinking right you know we're going to and then they started giving all these psychiatric medications that just kind of dull symptoms >> or you know mask symptoms I would say >> when in fact it goes back to all the same things you're saying you know as soon as these people you know go on a carbohydrate restricted diet their mental illnesses will very often improve or eventually if they stick with it go away >> which means that so-called mental illness may be caused by these again same mechanisms. >> Yeah. Yeah. It could very well be and >> and deficits. Yeah. Deficits, deficiencies of of nutrients that are critical. >> Yeah. >> The brain. >> Yeah. And and and Dr. Palmer feels that this is this is highly tied up with mitochondrial function and and probably is, but you when you're eating >> certainly is right. Yeah. >> Yeah. And certainly when when your brain is running on ketones, you actually use um 25% less oxygen per unit of ATP to generate ATP that versus carbohydrates. So it's a more a more efficient um energy um generation. It also when you're in ketosis, studies have shown that you can then go through autophagy and mphagy and miogenesis. You're turning over your old damaged mitochondria. you're making new ones and after 3 months you have four times the number of mitochondria and they're four times as effective uh than than you did before and that continues on for another two years, right? So you actually continue to get more and more improvement. Um also the brain running on ketones is again more efficient. It's has less oxidative stress. Carbohydrates can kick off free radicals, reactive oxygen species. And as you were mentioning with heart failure, I that's something that I and other people in this uh other doctors and clinicians in this space are actually seeing more and more and more. And I'm actually speaking to cardiologists, they're saying that when people go ketogenic or or ketogenic carnivore, but just ketogenic, they're seeing heart failure actually improve dramatically. I've had a patient who had 13% injection fraction supposed to be over 55% and he was on all the medications, deoxin, etc. to sort of keep his his EF uh just as that 13 which is already awful. So at that point you're sort of circling the drain for a heart transplant. You know it's it's a bad state to be in. You have horrible energy. You feel like garbage >> and 3 months his ejection fraction was normal and he was off his medications. And that's something that we're seeing more and more. Yeah. Normal. And the thing is though is that there are already studies that actually show that well we already know that ketones are the body's primary fuel source. You would know this uh as well that when your body has in you know even in traditional sort of biochemistry classes you know when you're in the fasting metabolism or now being called it carbohydrate and non-carbohydrate metabolism. When you're in that metabolism and you're making ketones and you also have glucose available your brain runs on well most of your brain runs on ketones your cardiac myioytes run on ketones. So your intestines and muscles etc. even though you have glucose available, right? So that seems to be a preference, right? So if until and unless you run out of ketones, your body is going to run on those ketones for most of your of your tissue. Um so when your heart is running on ketones, eject that can just the ketones can be is such a a more efficient and appropriate fuel that ejection fraction has been shown to increase by 30% just by having ketones. So take exogenous. >> Oh my gosh. >> And it'll increase ejection fraction. It can increase injection fraction by 30%. Now if you've had eskeemic heart failure, so you've had a massive heart attack and have this big scarred up tissue and it's just not going to be functional, that's probably not going to be as big of a of a recovery as if it from some other ideology. But I have seen people that have had um eskeemic heart failure actually improve much more than a few percent. and they're going up, you know, 20 30%. Um, from from where they were before. So already that's a that's a huge massive improvement. And it could be what you were talking about sort of having all the, you know, different neurons and things like that and in the heart. And could this affect other sorts of ectopic beats or skip beats or maybe even AF? We're seeing anecdotally that people are reporting that their AF is clearing up >> and atrial fibrillation. Right. >> Yeah. Exactly. And so they're they're actually getting uh recovery from their, you know, arrhythmias from atrial fibrillation because they're not getting these these aberrant beats that are being sent off um inappropriately. And so there probably is something we don't know the mechanism, but it's very interesting because we're seeing so many phenomenon that just seems it just keeps happening, keeps happening, keeps happening. There has to be a there there and you know people need to start you know well people like yourself you know researching these sorts of things I think is is really the future here because we're seeing this happen so there's enough signal there that okay hey let's let's look into this and then you know people like yourself actually saying okay let's figure out what's going on I think that's going to be that that I that is hopefully going to be the future so then we could actually really start to to help human health >> exactly and think about the fact that Dr. Baker when he himself, you know, experienced this incredible >> recovery and remission of his chronic joint pain that he had from being a very active, you know, guy doing Highland games and rowing and all the sports he does, weightlifting. >> You know, he was so amazed when he was able to clear his joint pain with carnivore >> that he started telling people in his orthopedic surgery practice, right, where he was doing knee replacements and hip replacements, "Hey, why don't you try this first?" and they fired him from the practice for helping people get better without surgery because it hit the bottom line of the surgical practice. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, the fact that you're now running sort of a metabolic health practice, >> but I'm sure you you're you're dealing with a lot of patients that do have neurological conditions. So, all the background you have is incredibly valuable. >> And uh that's the future, you know. the future is like I I mean I almost feel you know people will roll their eyes at you when they say oh I have this health problem well do carnivore well that carnivore and it's like there's only one answer but it's true you know what >> you know there's it's good to be an early adopter >> and you know the other thing like just just mood that's a good thing like as Carrie man always says like you know he he because he had severe depression um before he went carnivore and with like you know within one year he was transformed his whole life his whole outlook on life his energy his he he became incredibly optimistic and and better with his family I mean I think that's that he has said and and I totally agree like for mood alone it would be worth doing >> but it just happens to improve every other thing too Mhm. Yeah. >> Right. I've seen a case uh there's one case I saw this guy actually measured his test. He had been a vegan for six years. >> Mhm. >> And he was just as thin as a rail and uh you know just looked like almost skeletal. And and then he switched to carnivore. Like he went from 100% vegan to 100% carnivore. And he did all his blood work at the end of the vegan years. And then after only six months on carnivore, his testosterone doubled. >> Yeah. >> And he's 27. You know, his testosterone doubled. And you know, that really affects a man's mood and a woman's mood. Like testosterone is important to female energy. >> It is. Yeah. >> Too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, hormone regulation just kind of clicks and gets, you know, optimized, too. I I I see that all the time. I see it all the time in my practice. I I've inherited many patients on HRT, TRT, things like that. I don't really put people have to put people on many those things because I attack diet and lifestyle first and foremost. And it is exceedingly rare that I mean like an actual case of of gonadal failure. um sort of rare that that that I would need to actually put somebody on testosterone for men. I mean women at some point your ovaries aren't going to work anymore. But you know for for instance Maggie um she actually her and her mom who had done basically done keto her whole life and for the last sort of 20 30 years that she was with uh Maggie was just doing carnivore. Um they they didn't go into menopause until their 60s like mid60s >> you know. >> Oh gosh. And Maggie's hair is still blonde. And I'm wondering if part of the reason like my hair has not turned gray when all the people my age their hair is white or totally gray. >> But that but I've been carnivore six years. So before it would have turned gray and it didn't turn gray. So I mean maybe I can be like Maggie. I'll try. >> Yeah. Well, you keep going with it. Yeah. But I I've had so many men like I've had I've had dozens of men I've gotten them off TRT because they just they just feel great and and they be, you know, sometimes they just feel great and their testosterone, you know, good, but they say, "Look, I I feel amazing. Do I even need to be on TRT anymore?" Like, "All right, well, let's find out." We wean them off of that, check their blood levels again in a couple months. Sometimes it goes up from where when they were on TRT because it sort of has a suppressive effect, doesn't it? you know, and so now all of a sudden the gonads are are free and unbridled and they and they go and do their thing >> and and others I had an 18-year-old um young man who should have had testosterone shooting out of his ears. He's he was, you know, he's 18, but it's very suppressed. Very suppressed. I mean, I had a 72 so it's different numbers in in the US and in Australia, but for free testosterone, the optimal range for a 25-year-old man is between 600 and 900. And there was a 72-year-old man who was his free testosterone was down at 220. Okay, so he's 72. But at the same time, in the 1970s, 60-year-old men had double the testosterone of actually more than double of the testosterone of men in their 20s do in the early 2000s. And it's even lower than it is now than it was then now. So, um you're not actually supposed to just have your testosterone just fall off a cliff. That's not normal, actually. And that's actually very recent that that's happened. And so this is an a 72-y old man has 220. Put him on a carnivore diet and he's very strict. 4 months later it was 750. Totally. >> Oh my gosh. He must have felt so much better. >> Massively. And he he felt amazing. He was going to the gym. He had a new lease on life. He his libido came back. May I don't know if his wife was happy about that, but he was he was definitely happy about that. And um and then contrast that with this young man who's 18. His testo free testosterone was 180. It was lower than the 72y old man. Right. That should >> How could that be? >> Well, because he was eating hot garbage >> and Yeah, exactly. And so we changed his diet. His mother was a was a patient of mine and so she had been doing this and she had so her and her husband had such massive benefits. They're like, "Okay, we need to get our son in here." And he mostly did it, but he would have a couple he he ate a lot of meat and so he's eating a lot more meat, but you know, few days a week he'd be have some rice or pasta with that meat. So still massive improvement and ketogenic on a lot of the days. And insulin resistance has been shown to lower the LH receptors, the luteinizing hormone receptors on the lid cells on the testes, which will downregulate testosterone production even for the same amount of LH. And so being in ketosis and reversing that insulin resistance will help that. You know, all of a sudden you'll have higher levels of of um receptors, LH receptors. And and that's exactly what happened for this young man. Even though he wasn't perfect after a couple of months, his testosterone, free testosterone went from 180 to 450. So a massive massive jump, >> not even going full force. And and I see women especially really responding with their growth hormone. Growth hormone, we sort of call this the hormone of youth. It sort of helps rebuild and repair your tissue. And as you saying, you're just sort of aging backwards. I've noticed that too. I look younger now at 45 than I did at 35 and not doing this. Like [clears throat] you see pictures of me, it's just like it's almost not even recognizable. >> Like you know, the skin just glows. >> Yeah. >> And it's wonderful. You know, you can I feel better in my 50s than I did in my 40s and 30s, which is crazy. >> Yeah. >> But that's because I, you know, I was just eating carbs like crazy, you know, like most people do, you know, that's what we grew up with. >> Yeah. Exactly. And and you just do what you're told. And now now there's that whole movement. I I I am 100% convinced that this is being paid for by the processed food industry and sugar industry because they have they're they're basically they have these different influencers or who are wannabe influencers who are who are just pushing this whole oh I went carnivore but it damaged me like I'm sorry but you never you've never done carnivore and and these same people >> have have explicitly said they've never done carnivore and haven't even done keto they and they've said specifically I've never gone below 100 to 150 grams of carbs but now they're saying that keto keto messed up their hormones and raised their cortisol and damaged their thyroid. But you never done keto. What the hell are you talking about? And um >> it's just lies. They're trying to obiscate and and create >> um complexity and controversy where there really is none. Because people do ask me that >> and and I do want to kind of say this for all the people watching this podcast like >> is everybody going to get better on carnivore based on my data gathering which has been extensive. You know, I probably have watched more than a thousand of Dave's 1300 interviews because everyone is an anecdote. It's data. >> It is >> data >> and um you you put together a thousand patients and their experience and >> that's pretty powerful and yeah, I think everybody would be healthier cutting the sugars and carbohydrates and vegetables and fruit out of their diet. >> Yeah, definitely. And you know as as as a professor of bioengineering I mean can you think of any mechanism why being in a state of ketosis would elevate our cortisol to the point of hyper cortisolia or destroy the thyroid and and shut down and cause hypothyroidism? >> No. No I certainly can't. And and and quite you know quite to the contrary when I did a a 40-day water fast which puts you in the deepest ketosis >> Mhm. my thyroid healed >> and became normal. And I'd had pretty severe Hashimoto's before. And you know, if you look online, it says that Hashimoto's just needs to be treated with exogenous thyroid hormone, >> you know, therapy. And I did that for a while, but it didn't seem to do anything. And so, I just decided to do carnivore plus fasting. So I think you know things that can increase your cortisol would be like really hard exercise too frequently without enough rest that can elevate cortisol obviously stress. >> Um what else? >> Yeah. Well poor sleep stress stress in life uh chronic cardio marathons. Yes. Um chronically undereating. So, you know, period of fasting, sure, but then after that, you need to you need to eat. And so, some people would would um continually undereat for months and years, and that can that can cause >> Okay. So, my best friend who I run this ranch with, um, Adam, he his solution to staying trim is to do one meal a day. >> Mhm. >> But he's been doing this now for like three, four years. I cannot convince him to go go carnivore. You know, he's >> he says, "Oh, I get sick of eating red meat." I was like, >> "Oh, how?" >> I said, "Listen, everybody says that when before they try it, but if you [clears throat] actually start eating a beautiful juicy ribeye every day, you will not get sick of it. You will love it. And you will love it more and more with every passing day." >> And it's so satisfying. And then once you've eaten that, say I I I would eat like I say a 16 steak >> and then I don't even think of food. I'm so satisfied, so comfortable. 10 hours can go by and I don't think of food at all. >> And and you just need that nutrition. But he'll eat like a a more sort of standard omnivore type of meal which has a little bit of meat. Like maybe it'll have 6 to 8 ounces of meat and then it'll have like some carrots, peas, potatoes. If that's all you're eating like chronically every day, I think you're undernourishing. Like you need >> I mean I think a man needs like a pound to a pound and a half of good quality beef a day at least. >> Yeah. Often especially like full grown man. I mean to get and to get those nutrients as well. And and you know the the thing is too is that that when he says that well I I get sick of eating just [clears throat] red meat all the time. That's sort of the point is that you listen to your body and if your body is saying yeah this doesn't taste good anymore. That's your body telling you that it's not hungry anymore. We have receptors in our stomach that track up the vagus nerve to our brain actually tracks macro and micronutrients. Our our body tracks nutrients. it doesn't track calories. And so as you're eating these nutrients, they go into your stomach, your brain actually has a real time understanding of what nutrients are in there. And that and that'll sort of have a real time relay to your tongue. And so first bite tastes incredible because you're like, "Wow, this is amazing because your brain lost those nutrients." >> And then as you go, it sort of tastes slightly less good. And you will get to a point that it doesn't taste good at all. And so that's a I'm getting sick of this. No, you're not. Your body's telling you that you're done now. And so that's normal. Exactly. And so that's that's important. It's important to get to that point of I don't want to eat this anymore. It's not that you don't want to eat. It's that you you don't want to eat that. It's your body saying don't eat anymore at all. We're done now. >> Yeah. You're done. And I think about that. I think you're you're the one that came up with that sort of rule. Eat it until it doesn't taste good anymore. And I always think of that when I'm And it happens to me. Like I, you know, I can't >> quite eat the whole steak, but if it's only three bites left, I'll kind of force myself. M >> but uh yeah your body is very smart and in the end you know our immune systems are incredibly smart. I you know um our immune systems are incredibly smart and the best thing we can do is just nourish our bodies, exercise, sleep. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. you know, if if people are willing to try I I mean, I would love I I hope a lot of people see >> this discussion >> and you know, who have these neurological conditions and you know, it's not going to harm you to do carnivore. I promise you it will not harm you. M >> um and and you know, you can continue whatever therapy you're on as long as you feel like it's benefiting you, but you probably after some time on carnivore, you you might be able to taper off some medications. You know, a lot of people do that. >> Definitely. And and the people trying to scare That's the other thing, too. There's a lot of fear-mongering going on say, "Well, if you're in if you cut out carbohydrates, they're bad for you." even though they're not essential, it's it's accepted by the the establishment that they're not essential and that people have lived generationally without carbohydrates with no um delletterious health effects or effects on long negative effects on longevity. And um but they're they're still pushing this. Those seem to be the people that are also, coincidentally enough, pushing peptides and and TRT and HRT. Oh, you got to be on hormones, hormones, hormones. I'm like carnivores don't. And um and the fact of the matter is one thing I wanted to bring up as well in mainstream medicine right now today to treat the effects of hypercortisolism like in in say Cushing's disease we put people on ketogenic diets because that amilarates [clears throat] the negative effects of hypercortisolism. So if keto was going to exacerbate that and make hypercortisolism worse that would be a really bad idea. And yet that is the treatment that helps helps resolve or at least temper the ill effects of high cortisol. So it wouldn't do that. It would really if what they were saying was true, this would actually ramp up that those delletterious uh side effects and make things a lot worse. And yet they don't. They do the exact opposite. We use this as treatment. So it's it's completely backwards. Oh, I did want to say as well, there's a couple things that that I wrote down here. You mentioned people have problems with eggs. It's something I just came across. >> Yeah. >> Someone had actually sort of looked into this and apparently when you I think it was Dr. Barry. Um when he looked into this, he found that that um when an egg is fertilized within seconds, it actually changes a lot of the proteins in the white and the yolks and things like that and actually sort of breaks down some of these things like um I don't know exactly which ones he didn't say, but he said it changes these things and and >> uh changes these proteins significantly and people actually have a much easier time with the eggs and >> with fertilized eggs. >> With fertilized eggs. Yeah. >> Okay, good. I'm going to get a rooster. >> Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And so, and that's what he said, you know, find someone find someone who has a farm and has with a rooster and then get those eggs and see and he he's just seeing with his own own patients and things like that, they've actually been able to tolerate them really well. Um, I don't know if that's going to be the same for for autoimmunity, but it all is definitely going to have a lot to do with what that chicken has been fed also. And >> it's a natural thing for chicken eggs to be fertilized because they live in communities. They they they stick together in flocks. >> Yeah. And and we would have and and when we started going after eggs, which was I think something 60 80,000 years ago or something like that, that was they would have all been fertilized. These would have been wild eggs, you know, >> and so yeah, it would have all been like that. And and interestingly enough, the original bodybuilder sort of weight gainer shake that Vince Gar used to teach to people that like Arnold Schwarzenegger and these sorts of people would have done in that era was 30 raw fertilized eggs >> a day. Um, and you sort of blend them up and sort of drink 10 at a time three times throughout the day. But he said they they needed to be fertilized. That that actually um was important. and um that that that sort of changed things in some way. >> That's great information. And then I just want to add here while you were mentioning uh the amazing Vince Gonda, like he was so [clears throat] beautiful, >> Marilyn Monroe, who was also very beautiful, >> her her daily diet was two eggs in a glass of milk for breakfast >> and then she had a big steak for dinner and that was all she ate. >> Nice. >> And and look at her, right? She was amazing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. and and wasn't getting fat. Sounds like she was in ketosis and >> she had just the right amount of fat in the right places. >> That's it. And and her body took care of the rest. Yeah. >> Um I also wanted to say as well before I forgot, um the vitamin C side of things, >> um too much vitamin C can turn into oxalates, so just be mindful of >> I have been having more joint pain. It could be because I've been taking vitamin C. Yeah. >> All right, I'm going to back off for a while. If you wanted to take some, I mean that, you know, that that could be fine, but the the excess will will get turned into oxalates. >> I've been taking way less. Yeah. >> Okay. So, I'm gonna I'm going to try cutting that out and see if the because I've been noticing a little more joint pain and I thought, oh, maybe I'm getting old. No, it's probably the vitamin C. >> Could be. Yeah. And um because you're not eating carbohydrates either, you're absorbing all of that, right? there's no competition between carbohydrates and vitamin C with the glute 4 receptor in the gut. And so you're getting all of that in there. And so you need far less uh than otherwise. And also you don't need it for collagen because that's the thing is that as you know collagen um vitamin C is used for the um it catalyze a reaction that hydrayes proline and lysine. So you can get you know that tight bondage you know inside that that alpha helix in the collagen strands. So they they bind tightly together. If they're not hydrayed and they sort of push against each other, right? And so and they get sort of loose collagen, you get scurvby, you could die and get get aortic dissections and other sorts of bleeds internally. But when you're eating a lot of meat, meat has hydrayzeed proline anyway. So you actually skip that step. And so >> so you just you incorporate the little hydro the little peptides that are collagen peptides from the meat you eat. Yeah. Oh, and the other cool thing about collagen, um, is that apparently collagen feeds the microbiome perfectly. >> I just heard this like a few days ago. Like in, you know, a lot of people think you need plant fiber to create butyrates, right? Which is so good for you. >> Apparently, collagen is just as good, if not better, than plant >> fibers. Yeah. And and they'll make the the short chain fatty acids that will then turn into butyrate. And so you'll feed it from the inside, you know, with those proteins, but also you're in ketosis and you know, beta hydroxybutyrate is the the main ketone body. So you're feeding it from the inside and outside. So it's actually a lot better than the fiber. >> Oh, let me mention something really cool too that that you might not have looked into. Maybe you have. You you are incredibly knowledgeable, by the way. The inflam the inflammosome, you know, is kind of this assembly of proteins that kicks off an inflammatory response in your body. >> Well, guess what? beta hydroxybutyrate which is produced when you're in ketosis >> inhibits the activation of the NLRP3 inflammosome. So that explains why >> people often have their joint pain >> go away after only say a week. >> Yeah. >> Or even though they haven't lost any weight. So they're still have just as much weight on their knees or whatever. And yet the joint pain goes away. I think it's because as soon as they've got a good concentration of beta hydroxybutyrate because they're in ketosis >> now that inflammosome is inhibited inflammation will you know the that signaling cascade that leads to inflammatory responses will be nipped in the bud by beta hydroxybutyrate. >> Yeah. No, I I totally agree. Yeah. And um and and and and and the other side of it too is a you're in ketosis. You're going to you're going to block the formation of NLRP3 inflammosomes. You're going to stop that cytoine cascade in inflammatory cascade. And then you're also not bringing in other things that can cause inflammation. You know, I mentioned I mentioned to you previously that that uh last week I did, you know, had had [clears throat] a couple pieces of chicken that were were cooked at the house and someone had put some teriyak marinade on it. It wasn't sweet or anything like that. It was it was very light and but it had you know some soy sauce base and I was cooking something else but then I had these things I didn't realize they sort of had it and sort of taste it and was like oh it doesn't have that much on it that should be fine. I did a workout that day and I did some six sets of calf exercises and I I just I was in pain like walking like so stiff in my calves for the next 3 days and and nothing else had I eaten apart from apart from the chicken and normally I wouldn't get sore at all. And then you know a week or so later when all this had gone out of my system I did 45 sets of legs on my leg day. 45 and no soreness whatsoever. But then I'll have one cup of coffee, which I haven't had in years, but one cup I'd be sore for two days. >> And so even these little things sneak in, you know, I'm I'm sore and that's and that's >> may not show up for a lot of people if they're not working out to that extent, but it shows up for me. And I don't like that. I don't I I really really, you know, I spent decades of my life, almost my entire life being sore because I played sports all the time and I I worked out all the time. So, I was just chronically sore and just in bits and just stiff and rigid and I just had to deal with that and that sucked. And then now for nearly the last decade, I haven't been sore, you know, more than a handful of times and that's when something would have slept in since snuck in like that that marinade >> marinade salad you mentioned. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so, >> yeah. So once you get used to feeling good, it's just not acceptable >> to not feel that way anymore. Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Abs. Yeah. I I I do not ever want to be sore again. I mean that that's just awful. And you know now that I haven't been, it's just like this is amazing. Why would I ever want to go back to that? You know, I gave up caffeine, but I'm gonna try giving up coffee since you said that because I told you I I have still like a little bit of soreness came back >> recently. And so, I'm going to try getting cleaner cuz you know I the other thing you said that really stuck with me, >> you said that you sort of felt that you got 95% of the benefits of carnivore when you removed the last 5% of non-carn things. >> Yeah. And that, you know, I think that's really important to understanding the the the body's processes, right? If you throw a spanner in the works, you know, which is what the non-carn things are, you know, the whole thing is this exquisite machine, >> but you need to you need to feed it exactly right if you want to experience it at its best. >> Yeah. No, I agree. I I sort of the analogy I use is is like a precision watch. And so sure you you dump you know a bunch of sand in there watch is going to stop. Okay. So that that's that's not a you know that's not nothing exciting. >> But one grain of sand is really going to mess it up. >> It's really going to throw that whole thing off. So even that that first step towards you know the the end result is is going to have a more profound impact on on the overall workings of that mechanism than one grain of sand later on. So the first grain of sand is more impactful than going from going from zero to one is more impactful than going from 99 to 100. Right? 99 to 100 is like it's a drop in the bucket. But that first one all of a sudden things are sparks are flying, things are shutting down. that actually has a huge impact. Now, we are pretty robust. We can deal with a lot, but at the same time, we we do have that precision element as well that if we throw a wrench in the gears, it it actually will start causing problems. We can deal with it. We can survive, but it doesn't mean that we're not being that our health isn't being impacted significantly in um in that way as well. >> So, when you wake up, do you just have water? >> Yeah. Like hot hot water. >> I just have room temperature. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And so I just have water. You know, look, if I'm hungry, I'll eat, but when I eat, I eat and that and that's it. And so I might have eggs as well. I've actually started doing the Vince Gar eggshake sort of thing. >> Did you get fertilized eggs? >> I haven't found them yet. Um, so at the moment they're just past raised. I I want them like trust me. Like like I my dream is to be able to well my dream dream dream would be able to find one of these French castles in America and still be close to family and have like a castle up in the mountain. >> Is your family in the Pacific Northwest? >> They are. Yeah. And >> yeah, mine too. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. What part? >> Uh I I grew up in Belleview mostly. >> Oh, I grew up in Kirkland. So there you go. >> Okay. We're neighbors. >> Yeah. Yeah. So um Yeah, that's interesting. And um Yeah. So my my whole family is still in that area and we start >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, very good. Yeah. We came up from California and they moved up to Kirkland back in '89. So it was a long time ago. >> Yeah. We moved there in 79. >> Yeah. Very good. And um Yeah. So it would be nice to get a castle out there. >> And I went to UDub, too, by the way. >> Oh, did you? Oh, very good. >> Yeah, that's where I got my undergrad degree. >> Oh, very good. Yeah. No, Udub's great. And uh my my niece is there now. She's finishing up there. She's premed. And um and then my brother-in-law teaches there. He teaches computer science. So yeah, my sister went there and and so we we're we're a big UDub family. >> Yeah, it's a it's a great university. >> Yeah, it's very good. Um yeah, so that would be my dream. Other other than that, buying a castle out in the French, you know, you know, French countryside or something like that with a bunch of cattle, French speakaking cattle and um and just having a whole bunch of chickens and things like that. I would love to do that. That's that's definitely the the long-term goal is to be >> the only problem is in France, you know, they're they they truly believe that it's healthier to not eat meat right now in Europe. So, we need to completely change the mindset of Europeans. They're trying to get rid [clears throat] of cattle, you know, this. >> So, I personally think, you know, while you're considering your castle in France, you should also consider Northern California because this is near Mount Shasta. I can see Mount Shasta from my porch. It's incredibly gorgeous. >> Yeah. Well, if I could if I could find a castle out there, I'd be definitely definitely down. I >> Yeah. Well, there's that, too. The thing is, though, you can get a castle there that like to rebuild this thing, especially with the artistry and you couldn't. >> I mean, you're talking like $100 million. I mean, it's just >> buy the castle because you can have carnivore retreats there. >> I was thinking that, too. And um Yeah. And so, you know, having that I mean, could you imagine having a carnivore retreat in Charlemagne's castle? >> Oh, incredible. You have to do it. Yeah. >> But you also, you know, you you're you're still young, but you know, you can have >> you can have multiple properties. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the thing, too, is is that $800,000, I mean, housing housing prices here in just like a normal, you know, not it like like a a safe neighborhood, but not like a like a ritzy neighborhood. It wouldn't be like a Madina sort of area here in Perth. It would be like, you know, Oneanita or Totem Lake or something like that. You know, it's like you're talking like $3 million. >> Oh my god. I had no idea. It was so expensive there. >> Now that's in Australian dollars. So that's, you know, take off a third of that for us. >> Still that's like California prices. >> Yeah. It's massive. >> Yeah. And you know what? It it almost becomes stupid because like in the Bay Area near Stanford where I live, you really need like two people that are each making at least say $400,000 a year. >> Wild. That's wild. >> Yeah. >> So, look, that's how you have to pick your partner. >> It's like, hey, you know, it it's become stupid. >> Yeah. No, it's it's pretty wild. Yeah. And um you know my dad grew up in Berkeley and um my parents met at Berkeley and um he was saying at the time in the 60s and 70s housing prices were cheap. you know, you could have a you could have a couple houses and so you >> you know, and it was it was great. >> People I used to rent from, they had a huge house because I went to Berkeley, too, for my PhD. >> And so I was these people I knew, they they had had a huge house they bought in Berkeley in the 60s and their mortgage was $150 a month. >> Can you imagine? >> Yeah. >> It just paid it off when I when I met him. It's like, oh my god. >> Yeah. That that would that would be nice. Now it's like >> and and nowadays that house would be like a $14,000 a month mortgage. >> Yeah. Easily. Yeah. Well, that Yeah. And um and it and it's worse here in Australia because they don't have fixed mortgages. Um it's all adjustable. >> So they get you in with like a teaser mortgage rate and then all of a sudden it jumps up and so >> you got to get out of there. Come back home. >> I know. Yeah. All right. Will you keep an eye out for a castle around Mount Shasta? I will. and I will abs I will definitely look at that. But um Professor Baron, thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure. I learned a lot and I know everybody uh watching will as well. Um so can you can you tell us do you have a website or anywhere that people can can follow your work or or >> Yeah, I'll email you um a link to my Stanford website that summarizes my work. Um >> that's pretty much all I have is my work um website. I don't I don't like tweet or anything like that. >> It's awful. Maybe I should start. [laughter] >> No, it's a it's a it's a time suck. It really is. And if you if you did do that, just I mean, you know, post people are going to be interested in your work and that's going to be very beneficial to get that information out there. Um, but it can it can be so time consuming and it it is a >> maybe I'll just make a website that relates to that's for more for the public. um and put my new papers up there and stuff as this because you know I do intend in the future >> you know I really applaud you for the research you're doing and the case study you're working on and more research needs to be done looking at the effects of being in ketosis >> on these conditions. So >> yeah I'll try to keep contributing and and I'm so glad I know you now. Thank you. >> Me too. Thank you so much and uh thank you everybody for watching. I hope you enjoyed that and if you do, please like, share, and subscribe if you haven't and share this with someone you think would benefit from it. Um, thank you all very much and we'll see you next time. Thanks.