How to Optimize Metabolic Health, with Dr Tony Hampton

[Music] welcome to the plant-free md podcast with dr anthony chafee where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically [Music] hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar i don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so i like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because i want the carnivore market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products that will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code anthony to get 10 off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25 off total all right thanks guys hello everyone that's uh dr anthony chafee i'm here today with a very special guest uh someone i met at ketokon i've seen uh before on things such as fat the documentary and other sorts of venues and like his podcasts protect your nest uh dr tony hampton uh thank you very much uh for coming on uh to the podcast it's really nice to meet you oh man i'm happy uh we had a chance to connect definitely enjoyed meeting you at ketocon my wife said you gotta go over there and meet dr chasey and dr sean baker uh it was nice to just get in front of people i hadn't been to a conference in person uh in a while other than uh low-carb usa so it was nice to meet you guys in person and let's let's have a conversation my friend yeah absolutely that was it was great to meet you as well that was one of the things i thought about ketocon was uh that you know this is something i hadn't really done before as well and i've spoken to a few people online but you know obviously i hadn't met him in person so it was really great to meet uh everyone and people such as yourself so that was that was great absolutely yeah so for people that that uh haven't met you before can you tell us a bit about yourself yeah well i'm a family i'm in chicago area a family doctor i have board certification obesity medicine and thankfully i'll be finishing my nutrition and functional medicine training uh in a in a few weeks after uh this recording and and why i love that is it it really teaches you about the root cause of why we get sick and as a physician most of my uh life has been less diagnosed what's wrong let's treat it with medicine surgeries or procedures but what i found and many people in the metabolic health space have found that people weren't healing and it was a combination of my wife being diagnosed with type 1 diabetes not really being interested in you know becoming you know just getting all these medicines although she had to take insulin uh but because we've changed our approach and we've learned that lifestyle is the key the need for insulin has been greatly reduced and for her and and just as importantly i took my learnings you know when i wrote my first book fix your diet fix your diabetes i i wrote that as a tool uh from my patients who i just never felt i had enough time to teach right so i said let me give them a tool to help them and and give them something tangible so that was to help them so many patients up for diabetes and i felt like the youtube and the podcast would be helpful as well just to kind of give people a way to hear the messages because you're trying to teach a ton in like 15 minutes right so how do you do that well you create resources and even the link tree uh that i have and i'll share that with you my link tree is a way for people to you know how to do low carb just just click on the video and watch it what's you know my patient handout you know how do you do low carb from that perspective and and i think that's a nice starting point for people who might ultimately end on a keto diet or carnivore diet so it's been it's been like a a gift uh when you can use lifestyle to help people and i just think it's the only way to practice medicine we were trying to heal people i thought so let's let's use this this knowledge to do that so so again that's kind of how i got started and i'm in a large health system advocate aurora in illinois wisconsin it may end up expanding we may merge with a health system called atrium so we may be in you know georgia norfolk and south carolina and alabama soon so it's a large health system and my thinking is let's let's take this healing message to a large health system which will then influence other health systems if we can show people we can reduce the cost of care by healing people it's much cheaper to treat uh you know or to just maintain a person healthy as opposed to treating their diabetes so let's reverse diabetes that's my thinking yeah well i mean that's a that's a very good business model as well that people don't think about but you know there's been a lot of companies that have improved not only the health of their employees but their bottom line by encouraging exercise programs you know running to work cycling to work like nike just pays you more if you'll just run to work or cycle to work or and you can take longer lunch breaks if you go to the gym and things like that so it's incentivizing them and they end up you know costing the company less than their less in their medical insurance so you know this is something that actually actually is fiscally beneficial to companies and should really think about so i think that's a very good uh argument to make so that's so well done with that um you know speaking of sports you have a us open tennis hat on is that uh is that your sport of choice do you play yourself or just yeah well i never i never was in the u.s open unfortunately but but yeah that's my uh that's my sport of choice um i i literally um i think i was around 10 or 11 or so and we moved to an apartment with my mom i have an older brother it's just us three and literally you walk outside the door and you see a tennis court right so the tennis court is meaningful for many reasons but the most important i think is that it gave me a vision you know when you're living on the west side of chicago where you don't necessarily see doctors and lawyers in your neighborhood it was an opportunity for me to not just play a sport that exposed me to others who were not necessarily african-american as an example but literally it was a suburb called park illinois uh where a lot of my tennis friends actually lived so it actually forced me to kind of go into their neighborhoods and they may live in a large house you know with the picket fence and and it was a little different than what i was accustomed to so what tennis did for me is it kind of took me out of the hood in a way and brought me to things that i saw my friends have and it made me want to work hard to have those things so tennis is actually uh not just something you do because you're you know i was i played for my high school and and for the park district and did those types of things but it also kind of gave me a different perspective and sometimes it's really those life experiences that help you become who you are gives you that confidence lets you know that oh if my friend can do this i can do this and so uh and i was really just jealous of you being an athlete that's really what it was so i wanted to want to let the world know dr hampton has some athleticism as well and uh and and and and but i love tennis i don't play as often as i would like i'm actually going to start to integrate that back into my life because the kids are finishing up their education my youngest is in graduate school at washu it's in st louis so so as we try to have you know get back to a married couple doing things together tennis will be back on the to-do list so love the sport and uh happy to uh get that back into my life yeah well let's go to your son sons at wash you actually have a buddy of mine who's doing his fellowship in pediatric neurosurgery there so oh yeah yeah yeah so that's a great school man it's one of the most beautiful campuses you'll ever go to oh man uh isn't it yeah if you go there there's very few places that will impress you uh watch washington university in st louis is this it's a place where the parents are like him we live here you know a very nice it's a nice spot nice yeah um yeah i was going to say as well you know sports are i think such a good teacher of last life lessons you know they're they're i think they're very very beneficial forever it certainly taught me a lot of things um you know teach you you know hard work discipline you need to like listen to coaches you need to work with other people and you need to you know set goals you need to try to work really hard to hit them so okay how am i going to get here like that's my goal you know how do i get there you know and you map these things out and those those same life lessons can be applied for the rest of your life and everything that you do i remember there was um when i was in uh finishing up medical school i came across a paper i forget where the institution was but it was it was a residency director at a top program in the u.s and they published this study that actually showed that that um a better indicator of how well a resident is going to do in their residency was not the usmles or their grades or what school they came from but if they were successful in sports previously you know because and i think that it's almost certainly to do with that aspect you know you're going to work hard you're going to push yourself uh you know to try to excel and hit goals and so you know if you were they found that people who were very successful in sports and went to medical school and out of this they they probably applied themselves well and then you know knew how to work with the team knew how to be coached knew how to how to be involved in a complex structure working towards you know a a very uh you know high-end you know goal that demanded perfection in a lot of ways so i think that's uh yeah i think that's that brings a lot uh to people's lives um yeah and um so what how you know you you've shown up in um obviously a lot of different different places like you know i mentioned fat a documentary with vinnie uh tortorage uh which i thought was great i thought that really you know blew the case open on the fact that we've been you know lied to and misled on fat being bad and plants being good you know what what you know when did you come to this realization when you found that you know you know plants may not be uh that good for you and that reducing them and actually going towards a meat-based diet has actually provided benefit to people's health i i'll start by saying that the my previous life was one where i had a more of a vegetarian vegan perspective so about 10 years ago i've been you know low-carb keto on the verge of kind of war for basically uh you know 10 years but before that i was plant-based when i wrote fix your diet fixture diabetes that book was uh only it was going to be a plant-based book because that's what i was doing but the research didn't justify it i i just started looking at the research rather it's the shea the shy study which compared i think uh ornish kind of diets the plant-based to mediterranean and and low-carb and and the mediterranean low-carb did the best and the low-carb did the best of all so i started looking at these studies i'm like why is the atkins diet doing better than the fat diet didn't make sense to my logic so i i had to honor the research and i shifted so part of this understanding that plants are not necessarily the most ideal nutrient or source of food was from my research from my book and trying to help my patients when i started my nutrition and functional medicine training which interesting enough uh a lot of the folk who teach us are more plant-based in this training which i think is one of the things with nutritional science that's uh kind of still harming us is that the next generation of nutrition professionals are still being taught the same way of thinking that plants are best but what so i learned things in that setting and when we had uh you on my podcast and protecting your nest podcast we talked about the fact that you know plants have you know you said that plants are trying to kill you right so i asked you that question and what we talked about were the anti-nutrients because um you have things in your in your in your plants that you don't have in the animals the animals as you know are trying to they can defend themselves that plant can't so you have phytates and and oxalates and and lectins and things like that that are in the uh plants so i learned in my training ironically from from folk who are actually promoting plants they would argue that you need plants you need to be challenged so they believe in this for or mises uh kind of methodology where if you're challenged a little bit it makes you stronger just like when you lift weights you got to challenge the muscles that the problem is uh if i isolate is in something like spinach or something it's gonna it's gonna make the absorption of the calcium less than optimal right so if you so you're eating all the spinach kale and all of these so-called good things they have isolates and you can't get the calcium out of it i mean that doesn't make any sense and then you have things like tannins which are in certain types of things like you know t-wine and things like that that you know that may inhibit protein absorption so so i learned these principles in my nutrition and functional medicine training and i learned that if i have these phytates for example and they're supposed to they're going to inhibit my mineral absorptions in certain you know because they're in grains and nuts and seeds then what am i doing here like what am i doing am i so i'm eating these things for nutrition yet the plants are saying i'm not having that you're not going to get the nutrition you think you should be getting out of it so it's really a conundrum and so as i understood that and then it started to make sense i said why is it that when i eat brussels sprouts my stomach bothers me why do i get gassy why do i not feel good why would i eat a steak i feel nothing i just feel great and so other than just being full from it i i just had to listen to my body combined with listening to the science and when i started listening to the science i was like okay this time make this is making sense and so i so i i so i had to honor the science and honor my body and that's when i started saying i need to eat more animals and less of these plants and now i'm at a point where um like last night i just had a ribeye i had nothing else now we're still in a home where we still have vegetables that are being served maybe maybe one vegetable but most days i'm kind of pushing towards just the animal because that's when i feel my best i've never had a day when i've eaten a steak or a chicken or fish in isolation and felt sub-optimal ever i have i can give you tons of examples when i've eaten plants and felt that way even when it's a whole foods diet that's the crazy thing so i just i listen to my body i listen to the research and that's how i ended up where i'm at now oh that's great yeah well and that's really good too that you you were open-minded enough after you know a decade of being plant-based to you know to be doing your own research writing this book and going like oh what the hell is this you know because i mean that that's it you know it's like these things have defense chemicals and the idea of hormesis i've i've thought was was a bit strange it could be true but you know at what dose you know whatever it is you have you know and we're not talking about one chemical being hormetic maybe that one chemical it has has a hormetic effect on our body at that exact dose that you get one leaf and that that's your hormetic dose but what about 500 leaves or 50 leaves and what about all the other things because there's 200 000 other chemicals in most of these plants as well and so maybe one thing is hormetic are there other are the others you know and are they hormetic at that exact same dose that they come in in that leaf so i think that's you know that's you know maybe you know like not i don't think you're going to be able to make that strong of an argument uh for the hormeso side of things and uh and you know and like you say you know this is stopping your body from absorbing nutrients where's the hormatic advantage there you know i think i think there's yeah it doesn't make sense like i said when you compare it to building muscle yeah but when you're lifting weights and building muscle you're not inhibiting something that's also beneficial it doesn't make sense that's true though i i go away i'm you know with that mba i have i'm looking for a return on investment man so yeah i'm looking for i don't want to waste anything so i think that that's a better way to do this yeah yeah i think so um so you have your your youtube channel and and you sort of go by uh the terminology like a metabolic health doctor so you know what what is that exactly why is why is focusing on metabolic health uh so important to you obviously your book uh was was based on metabolic health why is that your focus yeah well it goes back to return on investment i i realized that the um the you know what is making us sick and so if it's if it starts with diet uh we're eating in this you know certainly in the united states uh you know we i think um the recent we we always quote it 12 percent are metabolically healthy meaning 88 or not well tests just came out with the new study and the new study says well only seven percent are metabolically healthy yes yeah all right and we should we should have a link to that study in this show notes so for anybody watching or listening just search it or we'll have it in the show notes but i'm going to tell you something uh that means that 93 of the people you know and love are not metabolically healthy well what does that mean well we by definition we talk about your you know your waist being greater than 40 inches for men 35 for women we talk about your blood pressure not being in a normal range so if it's over 130 over 85 we're talking about your blood sugar being too high if you're fasting sugar is greater than 100 we're talking about your triglycerides being greater than 150 we're talking about your hdl being less than 140 which is the so-called good cholesterol so so so what i've learned is well if if meta if hyperinsulinemia from too much starch and sugar is leading to a metabolic syndrome then and metabolic syndrome is the foundation of heart disease and stroke and as we you mentioned in the podcast previously when we did the protecting your nest you said well they cause diabetes type three a dementia type 3 diabetes so if dementia is a metabolic problem and and the warburg effect uh where and i've heard you talk about that as well so if we're saying uh i i'm cancer and i love glucose i love glucose well how about if we don't give it access to all of this glucose or at least give it glucose you know gluconeogenesis via your pancreas using amino acids and fats let's do that as a source where we're minimizing the exposure so our cancer won't have a thriving environment to grow i think that so for me if 70 to 80 of all chronic conditions are related to metabolic syndrome it would be malpractice for a doctor to not focus on the thing that causes most of the chronic illnesses that we treat every single day so for me that's why i decided you know what let me let me focus on this language my wife when i first told her i wanted to say i want to call myself metabolic health she said nobody knows what that is i said that's the point nobody knows what that is and my patients may not know but they will know by the time we finish screaming from the rooftops they will know what metabolic disease is they will know about the society of metabolic health practitioners they will know that carnivore is a reasonable option to help heal and keto and low carb and and and we're gonna say it that way and i and think about it i'll be speaking at the society i mean at the metabolic symposium that's sponsored by the society of health practitioners low carb usa and they never called it the metabolic health symposium until this year why did they do that because they understood that there's many ways to get to metabolic health and we need to focus on this terminology because this is actually what people need to learn about and and change how they approach their health by understanding that the only way to treat it is not with metformin is with lifestyle there's no drug that's gonna fix metabolic syndrome other than lifestyle yeah yeah well that's the thing you know uh unfortunately now in medicine we're really focused on disease management as opposed to you know disease prevention or or curing people like when wha what happened to curing diseases you know that's not that's that's just something that we've just sort of given up on they say oh that's not curable just manage it you know ulcerative colitis or crohn's or diabetes you have to just take these medicines but they will never go away that you have this disease okay will you always have pneumonia you know no that's a disease that's a communicable disease and and you can get over that disease so that's um that's why i think that uh you know these these sorts of you know metabolic issues and and illnesses that we call diseases i think are misnamed uh because you should be able to cure a disease and so i think that uh definitely we need a lot more doctors taking this approach and hopefully you know being a director of a major uh you know medical facility uh will start to influence other people um i was just gonna ask you quickly on that is that has your influence in what you're doing is that just branched out to the the doctors and the and the providers that that work for you yeah um i am fortunate to be in a large health system where our motto is we help people live well we're also a population we're probably in a top 10 size-wise for population health so population health where you are being asked to here's resources to take care of the population you need to take care of the population what that forces you to do is you if you do a really good job there will be more resources to have programs so so to help people so so so today so the short answer to your question is yes um it still takes time because this language metabolic health and things like that are not mainstream so i we're currently working on a transformational project to transform care and diabetes there's about four parts of that and now i'm helping to lead the part with another colleague from wisconsin where we focus on how we interact with patients for diabetes care and in that model i will along my colleagues suggest things that focus on lifestyle you know kind of like what virta health does they use a dietary approach i may be reaching out to them to hear what they're doing uh and and and they've done the research so we'll take the the research that's why i think virta health is so important because when you're talking a large health system they need to know that there's some research that supports this way of thinking uh so but but in the past i i helped lead our healthy living program uh which in fact i did a um uh grand rouse with the society of metabolic health practitioners where i went into more detail so for those who are not familiar with the society definitely consider joining because you have to be a member to get the grand rounds and i talked to so the healthy living program getting in front of people talking about lifestyle helping them you know showing them how to uh cook food partnering with the chicago food depository to give them some food and then what do you do with the cauliflower once you get it that's one thing we i help lead we have a diabetes prevention program which is something that we have throughout the country however our version kind of does carb restriction as opposed to the standard guidelines that people follow a copd program using the same methodologies in the diabetes prevention program where we help people with copd whether the copd have to do with you know your diet everything inflammation and things like that so you're not having the flares and also teaching people how to use their inhaler and referring them to a pulmonary rehab you'd be shocked how many clinicians never refer their patients to pulmonary rehab so we make sure that they get those researches resources make sure they do their spirometry so we know how their lungs are functioning and then we have a food pharmacy we spell it with a f instead of a p where we actually have people come to the hospital but before they get the food in partnership with chicago food the top depository they have to hear us show them here's how you prepare this food they won't see potatoes and rice in their packet they will see non-starchy vegetables and things like that and if they have canned items they'll be non-starchy things as well so so those are the types of things that we're doing we have a new weight management program that has been pushed out to our teams but then we're going to push it out to our patients where we are allowing people to have choice so if they want to do low carb carnivore or low fat that's up to them but we coach them because one of the number one success principle in my opinion other than the knowledge they need they need support because it's hard to change what you've been doing for years so it's about giving people the tools to be successful connecting them with information that makes sense and then moving your entire health system towards that motto so because no matter how much we yell and stream on podcasts youtube if we're going to make a real impact we have to get the insurers and the health systems to learn these approaches and if we do that we have the opportunity to transform how we deliver care in the united states and beyond and because the united states is such a hub of what other countries do if we get this right it will in fact the end it'll it'll affect the entire world and i might as well say infect we want to infect them with the knowledge that metabolic health is the way to go yeah well you're definitely right i mean we do have a lot of influence in that regard i mean even when when the u.s stopped you know said that your cholesterol causes heart disease stop eating fat you know that that you know the the rest of the country around the world did uh take notice and start uh adopting those guidelines so hopefully that will absolutely yeah i hope that that that is the case that we can first of all change uh our society and and uh our approach to nutrition and medicine and then the the rest of the world will take on as well uh take that on as well um i think i think it's also great that you know you guys are focusing on food in the in the hospital setting as well because you know i i cannot tell you how frustrated i get i'm sure you got frustrated as well thinking back that all the patients i see when they're when they're eating their meals at the hospital it's it's just all you know you know sugary carbs like that's it you know there's almost never meat there's nearly no fat and certainly no animal fats a bit of margarine or something like that and then a bunch of jams and jellies and juices and fruit cups and things like that and i i get so upset seeing that we had emails uh from the hospital saying oh these are our these are our nutritional guidelines these are the green things you can eat as much of those you want and this and this and this and you know red was like meat and fat and this and the other should almost never eat those things and and of course i couldn't keep my mouth shut so i emailed them back i was like this is all wrong here's why and i had like there's a bunch of different points a bunch of different links and you know i got back like oh yeah i forward this on to you know so and so and you know they'll be in touch still waiting for that little gem for them to come back to me you know it's been about a year now but yeah it's uh so that's great that that um that you've actually been able to make those inroads on on hospital food because hospital food is wretched and it's like these are the sickest people and you're giving them crap like high octane crap and it's like you know and it's like it's stuff that when i was a kid my parents would not let in the house like no no it's too much sugar absolutely not and so and we're giving this to sick people with cancer and heart disease you know it's just it's appalling to me yeah yeah i just had a tweet my most recent tweet on twitter uh was an image that i found of french toast i had a patient who came in who had broken the limb she was out of town she went into the hospital had broken a limb she was diabetic i think she was just taking metformin um and they offered her french toast every day on top of other starchy foods of course because of that they have to put her in insulin while she's in the hospital so this is a person who's never on insulin but because of the food that they're feeding her she's on insulin of course i immediately we immediately fixed that even when she pushed back and said my doctor told me i shouldn't be eating this they said the nurse uh replied the dietitian whoever she spoke to um you need carbs to heal and i thought that was an interesting statement so and even if you did right even if you need a little glucose to heal your body will convert the protein and fat into glucose i'm demand yeah and i give you excesses of it so uh we have so much to learn and it shouldn't take the patient to tell the professional who was trained that that's a ridiculous statement so so we have some work to do in terms of being able to teach and again that goes back to what i said if we can get health systems to wake up and ensure us to wake up and and the people who treat treat nutrition to wake up then then we'll have a path for us to all heal and we should not get sicker because we went to the hospital absolutely yeah yeah so um in that vein so you know what do you eat what is it what does a metabolic health doctor eat what's your diet these days well i think even when i was a vegetarian uh over 10 years ago for about eight years uh i i definitely believe in whole foods so although i don't eat that way anymore i try to be whole food so oh by by the way um i wasn't beyond impossible so being not impossible by vinnie uh focuses on uh the uh you know beyond meat and impossible burgers now so even as so back then i was so i was missing meat so much that i would consume those uh types of foods uh but then i later learned um that the like for example in the um impossible burger they have leg hemoglobin in it and and you know the studies were just uh you know they're not they weren't great for the mice first of all to add this to the diet and then they didn't really have human studies so i just feel like people need to eat real food because real food is the path to healing in general if you're doing it in a plant-based diet you need to understand there's going to be some deficiencies that you need to make up for i just chose to eat in a way where i don't have to have deficiencies i i tell my patients you can either be a lion or you can be an ape it's up to you now if you're ape you're probably going to have to eat a ton of plants all day long have a specific type of digestive system you're probably going to have a round belly and you're probably going to have to poop a lot because of all that fiber right and i don't have time for all that pooping i don't have time to eat all day right just to get the sufficient nutrients now um and then the other part of it is um this idea of being a lion and lions eat once or twice a week and they get all the nutrients they need from the protein and fat and the animals that they consume that's just a better model for me and so for me i i'm at a point now where um i um i don't eat breakfast i fast in the morning i think intermittent fasting is not required but i just don't get hungry and i just don't eat breakfast i was a coffee drinker in the past i rarely drink coffee now i i started my journey because i had an irritable bowel problem so coffee does cause a little irritation for some people and so i said well why am i drinking coffee if it can harm my stomach so what i found is that if i get enough sleep i'm fine so i just get enough sleep and for me that equals six and a half to seven hours per night uh for lunch i i'm pretty much a kind of for a hundred percent so i'll eat a half a chicken i'll eat ribeye i'll eat some you know ribs no barbecue sauce of course uh things like that and for dinner i tend to eat uh some type of animal and i may or may not have a vegetable with it i'm still in a home where we're kind of more keto uh but um but i'm moving towards carnivore because my stomach is happier when i eat that way so i have to be very specific like if i eat green beans no problem if i eat brussels sprouts big problem and so i have to kind of find it but but but at the end of the day what tastes better the green beans or the steak it's the steak so for me i'm uh moving towards that i may even do one of the uh black carnivores challenges where you do a kind of more challenge i may do something like that and see how i do but right now that's pretty much where i'm moving so metabolically health doc i drink water i may do uh tea but it's pretty much just water uh i i you know that and i basically i keep it simple because this is not very complicated uh and i and i'm busy i don't really have time to be thinking about food so for me i i feel phenomenal when i eat that way yeah i i totally agree uh with all that uh and especially the concept of keeping it simple because there's so many complexities oh you can do this at this time and then half an hour before you need to do this and then only half an hour it's like oh my god like who is going to follow this i think that you know that's very good for people trying to sell a program and like this program will work but it is really hard for people to follow and i think that anything that's overly complex is almost certainly not to be uh what we experienced in nature because you know who is who is telling the antelope how to do all that you know like they just have to do it you know it has to be natural it has to be instinctual and so if you can eat instinctually now you can sort of [ __ ] around with that if you want maybe maybe you know if you're going for like a body building competition or whatever you want to you want x body fat percentage whatever you don't naturally go to x body fat percentage and maybe you have to do something a little differently but just for just normal daily eating for optimal health it should be more or less intuitive it should just make sense you should be able to listen to your your body's uh you know experience and and sensations like you shouldn't feel hungry if you're full you know you shouldn't feel hungry if you're just eating a big meal with 3 000 more calories than than you need for that day you know so something something's off there i think so i like angry yeah so i like that i'll keep it simple also the bowel motions i had a buddy of mine i played rugby with and and he was commenting on on that and he's just like i was imagining we were on a rugby trip and i didn't go to like the bathroom like the whole time he was just like you know when do you when do you go to the bathroom when you go number two i was just like i have it i go like once a week you know he's just like how how is that possible you're supposed to go more like the more the better like i go i go to the bathroom six times a day i'm like how how is that but how do you have time to do anything else besides that you know i mean it's just like you just be like worn raw with like just you know with that experience i just i just it sounds it sounded just awful to me and i was just so that was that was me that was i and the problem is i'm you know i could see 20 to 30 people a day when do you have time to go to the bathroom so you're between patients the bathroom you know everybody's fighting to get into the same bathroom there's only you know so it's just a ridiculous model and yeah if you're eating plants you have to go but if you're eating uh animals you're going to pretty much absorb all of those nutrients so there's not a lot of waste necessary the funny thing is that people will say i don't like to eat animals because you know your body doesn't digest it well i'm like actually it's the opposite your body digested perfectly if you put a steak in acid stomach acid it'll just disappear so it's just a misinformation misunderstanding about how the body works well that's true isn't it like the these things just get repeated so often that people just they they say it's like oh well everyone knows that okay well what was it based on where was the study was where's the science behind it and i you know that's something that i've noticed as well just in medicine in general is that there's a lot of these things that just just get repeated like yeah like like eating a lot of protein is bad for your kidneys no it's not super good for you yeah that's right exactly yeah and you know but it was you know it was a best guess at the time you know and then they had reasons for that but then when they did the studies they found the opposite they found that actually more protein improved kidney function and so but i still have uh i i still hear like nephrologists you know talking to their their renal patients saying you got to go plant-based you got to get all this protein out of your system and it's just like dude this is your respect this is not even my specialty like how do you not know this like you should know this it's not new like it's been around for a long time but they don't you know well all i can say is um if you're a patient who has borderline kidney function i have even during my days when i promoted uh more of a vegetarian diet nobody's kidney function got better now part of that is because you can't get a lot of people to do it the diet you know but for those who did i didn't see reversal when i started to promote a low carb keto or carnivore diet you know creatinines and you know microalbumins improving became the norm and the only time it didn't improve is if they didn't do the diet now of course there's a point if it's a severe kidney disease where you have to use more caution but in my clinical practice anecdotally it's been nothing but success stories and they are regularly told by their uh specialists that there's no way you can improve kidney function the disappointment though is that after they see me i help them they improve their kidney function you still don't see the needle being moved with the specialist they still act like they didn't see it just happened you just saw their creatinine go from 3.5 to 1.5 and you're still not impressed it's like at what point you know and that's the part i don't understand still why would my colleagues see this remarkable change and then not want to incorporate that into their area of expertise which is to help the kidneys it's perplexing yeah so we have a lot of work to do yeah well but you know but that's the thing too i i it's a shame because you know you came from you know plant-based model but then you started seeing things in front of you going like this doesn't really make sense and so you you you sound like you you were more you were an empiricist before you were vegetarian and unfortunately it sounds like these guys are just you know this is what i learned so this is what it is but but you know it was a famous line that many medical schools uh you know sort of take a version of uh it was it was like a professor at harvard i think like the 1930s or something like that and he said that you know ten years after you graduate medical school half of what you learned will turn out to have been false but you won't know but no one can tell you which half that will be if you have to figure it out you have to stay current and unfortunately you know they didn't take that to heart i remember hearing that in sort of the first couple of months at medical school and it always stuck with me and i think that that probably helped that but i've certainly seen a lot of these things um and you know specifically with the reversal of diseases i have uh i've seen on just the different carnivore groups when i was first starting out with this a lot of people with kidney failure and they were talking about does anyone have kidney failures anyone have this does this help and a lot of people spoke up these were my experiences there was one lady who went carnivore and she was on dialysis you know she had end-stage renal disease and she went on carnivore for nine she was on it for nine months and after nine months she came off dialysis and she did end up not needing a kidney transplant which is nuts and you know and like her doctor was saying you're going to die first of all i didn't really buy that in the first place she already had non-functioning kidneys so it's not going to get any worse like she already needed dialysis right she already needed a transplant it's like you're gonna get worse than that like no yeah it's already damage is done but it actually reversed and she came off of it which i thought was amazing i i relayed that to a friend of mine who he was like 35 and his kidneys were shutting down and and um and he had something like 19 kidney function somewhere around there and he was very worried because you know he thought i was like i have a four-year-old daughter i'm not going to serve i'm not going to live to see her graduate high school and i just started telling about about the stuff that i was doing with carnivore and the things i found like the studies i found showing that actually protein is really good for your kidneys and obviously you know oxalates and other sorts of things are really bad for your kidneys so it's like these things in plants we know that they cause harm protein and meat you know we know benefit so you know it's worth the trying he's like you know what screw it you know it's worth a try his doctor was really upset at him he's like no no you have to take these drugs and you have to eat a plant-based you have to get rid of you if you're eating meat you're going to die your kidneys are going to go to hell and he just said look i listened to your advice and it's only gotten me worse so i'm just going to try this other thing within three months he was back up to 80 kidney function you know and so you know yes it's anecdotal but it still happened you know that's the whole point i just i just said wow even after seeing this happen over and over again in my practice i'm still like amazed at when i hear other clinicians tell their healing story people we're just providing hope for people and there is no reason why you would continue doing the same thing over and over again if it's giving you bad results why not then take a chance on something that makes you know that first of all we have the evidence for i think dr uh onion in the uk he's i saw one of his recent studies uh dr david unwin who makes the uh infographics with the sugar cubes and compares that to how much is in different foods and not only were people improving their kidney function but they were also compliant with the diet but they were but they also were being coached dr jin nun when who's in behavioral health they understand you have to support and coach people so we have the evidence to show that this works but people have on blinders right they still it's almost like they don't want to see what's in front of them but why would they not be skeptic why would they not question conventional thinking why would they not be dissatisfied with the results they're getting so all we're screaming from the rooftops is let's not be comfortable with our current state and we need to be comfortable being uncomfortable with the old belief systems that have gotten us nowhere so all we're doing is providing options for people and i will never go back to the old way of thinking where i was a manager of disease we went into healthcare to heal people and if we can if we have a path to heal them as hippocrates taught us that food be thy medicine why wouldn't we do that let's go back to that old way of thinking so i'm really excited that we're just getting started i mean you know 10 15 years ago this wasn't even out there too much except for a few areas and now we're actually able to help people restore hope so i'm excited about that yeah and just so hopefully more people uh you know come on board and i i've certainly spoken to a lot of doctors that obviously this flies on the face of everything that we we learned in in medical school and before just growing up and they as well but more people i think are listening and i think that being influenced by yourself and you're just real life like this is the way i live and this is how i'm helping patients people will take interest and take notice hopefully others will as well unfortunately you get other ones that like you're saying that you know they see these results and they just like no no no it's still bad for you um i had a guy was i was sort of helping out and he was on my podcast joshua umkowski who reversed his diabetes in a matter of months and his his specialist again was saying you're going to kill yourself you're going to do this you're going to do that and you asked her is like have you ever seen anyone reverse their diabetes type 2 diabetes and she said no i haven't said okay well then why don't you you know then why wouldn't you ask questions and think okay well maybe what he's doing you know is something i should look into and she just dismissed him and said look you're gonna have to talk to a dietician about all that but this is this is what we we recommend you do and it was very disheartening you know that and she saw this right in front of her and she admitted i've never seen this happen before but i am not willing to accept that there might be some validity to it you know so hopefully uh that sort of thinking uh goes away yeah yeah that's that's the work we're doing so let's just keep doing it i i have heard that many times and uh there's some movement but we need to do better yeah definitely so uh on your podcast it's uh you know protecting your nest and that's an acronym and so you can go through that because that's that's an important part of uh you know the overall health that you you argue yeah i i going back to keeping things simple um i think that when you're in a clinical setting you have to have a way to think about the things that will help you uh help patients so for example i i believe in motivational interviewing so if one of the acronyms is darn you know the desire to change ability to change reason for change and need to change if i if i have that in my toolkit i'll know to ask questions when people struggle everybody's not going to struggle i give them a you know if you go to my link tree dr tony hampton link tree you'll see the handout i give them the handout eat this don't eat that people do fine some people don't do fine so i have to use motivational interviewing to you know see if they're ready to change but my nutrition and functional medicine training uh allowed me to think about well why do we get sick in the first place and and so the acronym is to help people think about how do you fix the root causes of disease the root causes could be some imbalances in you know your your your structures rather the gut lining you know those tight junctions that should be tight if they're not you're going to have leaky bowel do i have hormonal imbalances that are making me sick too much insulin is the hormone we worry about the most right do i have digestive issues do i have mitochondrial dysfunction when i was at low carb usa the last time i spoke there i talked about the mitochondria and if you have a dysfunctional mitochondria you're not going to be healthy well what makes the mitochondria healthy well your diet does but maybe coq10 would be something to consider if a person's in that space so so the nest is really talking about diet nutrition the e exercise the s's are for less stress more sleep your your t's are for how you think obviously how we think matters self-limiting thoughts will harm you etc cut recovering from trauma and then the rope because you have to climb up the rope to get to the nest right so we need a rope and the rope is to make sure we have healthy relationships making sure we avoid organisms and pollutants that can harm us and then the ease are making sure we protect our emotions and making sure our life experiences service so that way of thinking allows me particularly when i have a patient who struggles what else is causing them to struggle and then when i figure maybe they had trauma so advocate aurora health care where i work they have a trauma recovery center if i don't address their trauma how in the heck i'm going to get them to be keto low carb or carnivore that's not happening their focus is i've been in trauma i haven't recovered from trauma doctor helped me with my trauma but guess what most doctors are not asking about trauma and most patients are not talking about their trauma or may not even be aware that that trauma is why they struggle so so that's kind of the nest and rope and i just felt like it would allow me to not just be a a you know carb therapeutic carb doctor who helps people restrict carbs it would also help me to identify why people struggle so that i won't blame them when they're not successful my job is to help them get to their goal and that that acronym helps me to achieve that goal that's good um and i think yeah i think that um having that approach that whole experience approach and you know because obviously you know a person is is is more than some of their of their diseases and and uh and problems like you know someone someone has diabetes you're treating the diabetes but no you're actually treating a person and that that person has diabetes in the wider context of their entire uh entire life and it's very important i completely agree with that you know as doctors we need to be cognizant of the fact that that this is coming this is coming with a person and i mean even just with with basic bedside manner you know people come to doctors because they're hurt and they're sick and they're scared and they need help and you know not recognizing that can can make you you know say or act uh in a way that that may be a bit distressing for them you know someone comes in you know and has a brain tumor and and they're just like oh yeah that's what it is we're gonna chop it out we're gonna do this on the other and they're just like you just see these tears welling up in their eyes you know because they have um you know they've they've their whole life has been rocked and you know you're you're you know if you unless you're able to address you know the person and everything else that's going on in their life then you know the the the specific issue that you're treating you know that's sort of a small part of of uh of the problem and i think you're probably gonna cause a lot of problems as well yeah i agree and and that's our job our job is to not rely on them and they shouldn't have to come to a freaking podcast to to identify the reasons why they struggle i mean think about how ridiculous that is that you have to go to a podcast or a youtube channel to heal you should be able to go to your health system and heal and that's why it it strikes me as a a paradigm that we need to shift yeah well i mean i mean that that clearly shows there's a problem doesn't it you know i mean because we you know we we should just be part of that whole system of healing as opposed to people outside of the system going like okay this is all going wrong that's right that's right yeah that's funny um yeah so we met at ketocon uh which was which was a great experience i thought that was that was fantastic you were on uh really cool panels medical panel got a bunch of doctors and health professionals up there um you know talking about uh all sorts of things but one of them was about the struggles and difficulties that people go through uh when they're trying keto um you spoke about sleep as well like why is sleep so important in this in this whole uh experience just just so so it was nice to speak about you know why we struggle in fact when i go to um the metabolic symposium uh this year i think on august 25th through the 28th and i really appreciate doug reynolds and pam devine for the work they're doing with the society of metabolic health practitioners and low carb usa but even at that conference i'm going to talk a little bit about you know you know when we struggle so if i have somebody that's kind of more keto and they struggle let's find out why and and and what i found is that it going back to that nest and rope uh that's that sleep is the issue so uh we were talking about on on the podcast protecting your nests about how important it is to uh you know kind of you know think about all the things that you need to be thinking about and for me sleep's important and we talked about i need coffee because i didn't get enough sleep right so let's do an experiment let's get enough sleep and see if that i don't need coffee because coffee was not good for my digestive system so so what i found even at university chicago where i currently am practicing in the chicago area not at this institution but here they've done research five hours of sleep you're you become borderline diabetic and metabolically unhealthy seven hours of sleep it reverses and this all happens within a week wow that's crazy so if you're going to be metabolically healthy you got to get enough sleep and and your sleep duration does matter so somewhere between six to eight now i know that's difficult depending some people are going through moments whether it's their career whatever they can't get as much sleep but the goal when it's possible is to get enough sleep if you're going to be metabolically healthy they've done these studies at university of wisconsin and i think university of california or i think it was at stanford they've done these studies that show your sleep duration matters and so and we also know that if you don't get enough sleep you will make more of the hormone that makes you hungry which is ghrelin right i learned this in my when i got bored certifying obesity medicine i'm learning about this stuff right oh well my satiety hormone leptin i'm going to have less leptin that tells me i'm full if i don't get enough sleep but the most important hormone ding ding ding is insulin right so so if i'm not getting enough sleep all of a sudden i will then be under stress because i'm not getting enough sleep so we cover the stress part of that s2 and now i'm going to make cortisol because i'm in fight-or-flight mode because i'm stressed well cortisol is going to then encourage my liver to release a little glucose so now i have all this extra glucose that i don't need because i didn't get enough sleep and i'm stressed because of that and that's going to increase my need for insulin so i'm going to become hyperinsulinemic which will then increase my risk for becoming metabolically dysfunctional so so if we don't so if i have a patient in front of me who's struggling i want to know how are you sleeping you know doc i'm in i'm at a plateau i'm struggling well let's look at your sleep and just fixing that one thing for some people can really help them to do better so again it's about thinking outside of the carnivore box and saying why are is this kind of worth struggling well because they're not getting enough sleep so that's one of the things i think is really important as we think about how we help people yeah yeah i think i remember seeing a professor from berkeley as well uh talking about sleep and um he said that people who average less than six hours of sleep a night are six times more likely to develop alzheimer's as well so you know it's a it's a major thing you know and i i talk to people like oh yeah no i'm fine i can run on four hours of sleep and it's like yeah you can but should you probably not know those plaques and tangles that you get from that you see on the scans for people with dementia you have to in order to remove that excessive byproducts of just living mitochondria being the factories of the mitochondria working you have to you have to have time to remove that stuff and you remove that stuff when you're sleeping so if you're not getting enough sleep it kind of builds up and and unfortunately can increase your risk for dementia which is definitely something we're familiar with in my own family uh we we have family members who are suffering from that and you hate to see people who you love who were you know thriving and they're not themselves because they have succumbed to type 3 diabetes which is known as dementia yeah absolutely yeah um you also talked about uh you know obviously going back to the nests you know the the the the thinking aspect will what about our thoughts are so important for um you know for diet and overall health yeah um well you know you know just having self-limiting thinking is gonna make it difficult for people to change so so i in fact i did an entire podcast i think it was episode number 14 where i didn't have a guest on the protecting your nest podcast i just sat in front of the mic and just talked about our thinking and and and what i've learned is that if i have a person in front of me who's you know always focused on this is why i can't do it what you're saying doctor i know that their thinking may be off and so so we have things like cognitive behavioral therapy that sometimes my behavioral health professional so if i can't play therapists which i think all doctors have to do at some point you know then i will make sure that they get some cognitive behavioral therapy to help them understand your current thinking is not allowing you to get to your goals so let's reframe that thinking so that you will have the belief system that yes i can exercise yes i can change my diet in spite of my environment making it very difficult and and i just think that our thoughts have you could argue um you there's a there's this competition between our diet and our thoughts you could argue some people would say your thoughts are more important some people argue your diet is more important i think they're equally important because i if i can't get people to think about their future and their life even the thinking of the clinicians the the nephrologists who uh for some reason can't change their belief systems uh that are currently not serving them unless they're just interested in uh you know having people in dialysis i don't believe that's true i don't believe that they're driven by profit to the extent that they would literally choose a person to be on dialysis than to help them heal but we have to focus on our thinking and our job as clinicians is to identify self-limiting thinking and when you hear it how do i use something like motivational interviewing to help them transition out of that thinking and or our behavioral health colleagues to help them so i think that's really important and again i think about that when i have a person who's struggling and it's been it's served me well i i just really thought i could just hand like eric dr eric westman says page four he hands them page four and they know what to eat right well what i find is that even dr eric wessman with adaptive life has learned that if i don't have these groups and videos and support for people and challenges then they will struggle so we have to understand that how why people struggle and how we can support them and once we get them thinking a certain way having self-confidence believing in themselves then all of a sudden the path to healing becomes a little clearer yeah and obviously your thoughts become actions as well and if you're not if you're not thinking clearly and saying like oh i'm gonna do this i'm gonna eat properly uh you know you're you're not going to actually action it and so yeah absolutely um that's going to be a major major thing it's getting people's thinking right and then relationships as well you know this is obviously i mean we're social creatures you know we need to be around people and have our social experience uh you know but what what what to you and in your nesting rope uh is is the relationship side of thing why is that such a main focus it's uh you you know we had covet and we became socially isolated particularly our seniors and they struggle with you know uh the copd program that i reference uh where we help people to uh you know heal from uh copd is one you with copd is a little tougher because you it's hard to reverse that one but you can slow the progression and and and when that program was transitioned during covet to a program where uh patients couldn't come in um if it was the virtual program that gave them uh a you know a break from their social isolation a lot of these seniors were living alone and you know we've had people cry because they were so um happy that we didn't stop the program so we need to not be isolated uh when you think about one of the stories i remember hearing from dr gurpreet patta i think he'll be speaking we actually have a panel um that we're gonna do with the metabolic symposium myself dr gurpreet potta and ade fox who's been on your show previously the black carnivore and we're gonna talk about you know communities of color and what we can do to get this message out to them but but but in a previous podcast with dr capri potter he talked about how when the military folk come back and they are kind of pointed at in a mean way why did you do that kind of stuff they become socially isolated the ones who are not socially isolated are able to get off their drugs the ones that are remain socially isolated can't get off their drugs so you can't heal if you don't have relationships community support rather it's you know a a relationship where it's a husband wife or just a person a senior who needs a church community to be there for them so so i always listen to my patients and i ask them so um how does your husband feel about the changes you're making and in the communities of color uh a lot of my african-american women are even concerned about losing too much weight you know they're like i don't he's not gonna like looking at me if i'm thinner because in that community in that community being a little uh thicker is more pro you know preferred it's just what it is so so i just think that we so how do you address that so i have to you know make suggestions say i'll say let's let's start doing those squats that we talked about and we're going to make sure you have some serena williams you know thighs for example so you'll maintain the things that are valuable to you while achieving metabolic health so we'll keep him happy we'll keep you happy and but you have to have these conversations because if you don't you'll wonder why is why are they not motivated it's because you haven't talked to them about that person in their lives that could either be a barrier or a someone that'll kind of walk with them so we we have those conversations i usually will ask them once you get on the phone let's call your husband or let's call your wife and let's let them know we're about to do and let's engage them and it may take five it's extra five minutes but it's those types of moments that will allow those relationships to provide support instead of harm nice yeah there was um there's some very sad obviously some very very tragic stories that came out of the isolation around covid you know suicide rates going up especially in you know young uh young you know children teenagers and things like that which is absolutely just devastating to a family in a community when that happens and even uh in the elderly community as well like you were saying i remember hearing a story i believe it was in canada and they and that area of canada had uh it was acceptable for for euthanasia that was legal and they went through a couple quarantines and there was a 14-day forced isolation and there was the the people in the nursing home they were forced to stay in their room the whole time so they just sat there in their room for 14 days they couldn't see their family couldn't see their grandkids had almost no contact with the outside world they just got meals through the door like like a prison like a a nicer appointed prison but it was still they they were not free to to do what they wanted to do and when this happened again i don't know we're gonna have to do another uh 14-day lockdown uh there was a there was a story about this one lady in particular who just said you know i can't go through that again you know that was the hardest thing i ever had to do and i'm not doing it again and so she actually chose euthanasia instead of being isolated uh from her family and her world for two weeks and and that that is just heartbreaking you know and many people say it's like well that's you know maybe they say something disparaging against her but think about how big of a deal that is that's how much that impacted her that's how much that hurt her and her life that she didn't feel her life was was worth it if she had to go through that that was so hard on her that even two weeks of that was was unbearable she would rather die and she did i mean which is which is very very very tragic yeah it's sad and and again um our goal is to not make sure people live forever but we just want the quality of our lives to be at a high level and if the quality of my life is not high as is suggested because i'm not able to be in my family it's what's the point of being here so yeah so i just we want to cut back on the number of times we have to hear stories like this we can't save everybody but we just want to touch as many lives as we can yeah definitely um and is that in that vein so like and going on to um you know life experiences side of things what experiences uh are you talking about there was what's beneficial for people it's it's really kind of funny in a way because i have so many different types of patients i see so although i tend to have more patients who are african-american if i have a latin american family in front of me and we're talking about carb restriction how do you get a latin american person who's interested in carb restriction to not eat certain foods that are very culturally uh appropriate but maybe very starchy uh it may be a tortilla i may have an indian family uh and it may be the pita bread i may have an italian family and it may be the pasta right uh shout out to dr ben bokikyo again who goes into restaurants and orders a pasta dish and will say to them give me that pasta dish hold the pasta and it's the weirdest thing to say and then they may and he may throw some broccoli or something under the uh dish you know but he'll he'll say ho to pasta so he's been very creative so what i find is that if i you know having a conversation with an african-american about eating greens without cornbread that's a that's a heavy conversation [Laughter] how can i eat greens without cornbread dr hampton i don't understand what you're saying that's that's a life experience that they have had that they feel will be a barrier so we so we talk about greens and and string beans and baked chicken without barbecue sauce would you not have sufficiently died if you eat that way and the answer is of course you would have we talk about eating all the i mean they they're shocked when they come to me and i you know contrast the lion versus the ape and and how the lion just eats meat and the ape eats plants and but i said the lion doesn't use barbecue sauce on his and i don't want you to do it either right and so the goal is to create a new life experience for them so it's okay to learn from our past life experiences but if they don't serve us we need to learn from it and then have new life experiences and that's what this podcast is about the youtube is about it's about giving people new life experiences and you don't have to experience it all yourself you learn through the experiences of others and you take those experiences and then you experiment with them see if it works for you and then you model that if it's working for you for your family you don't become preachy because you want to save the world because your diabetes has been reversed what you do is you say listen if you ever have questions i'm here uh and what i tell people to do is just in a very subtle way just talk about how great you feel and how nice it is not to take pills people will be curious and they will ask questions don't go home and give them a powerpoint presentation and that's not the answer meet people where they are and what i do is i try to create life experiences that serve uh people just like when we were at ketocon had a chance to meet you in person had a chance to meet meet a aj fox and sean baker in person so what that did for me it gave me a life experience which then led to us having this conversation and then it grows from there so i i think we just have to learn from our past and and be comfortable with the struggle because you're going to have struggle but then be willing to change so we need our nephrologists to change based on the life experience that a patient just reversed their kidney dysfunction and let's then change our behavior because we've learned something new be curious so that's kind of where that life experience fits in nice yeah i can see um obviously yeah when you when you raise in a certain way and this is something that you enjoy and that you liked it's difficult to take that away and uh i was at um i did a rotation like my sub internship over at uh at duke university medical center my first word exposure to you know southern cooking and by the barbecue stuff the hush puppies are good those are some of the best damn things i've ever had like they were amazing yeah i i i put on some weight when i was in when i was a two because you know it was crazy hours you know i was a medical student but i would i would get there at 4 30 in the morning we'd round at five we'd have a meeting at six surgery started at seven be there until nine or ten at night every single night you know six days a week and uh and and sometimes you know a little later and you know i get to the weekend i would just i would sleep for like 16 hours straight because then i'd go home and i'd have to read up on the surgeries that we're doing the next day and so it was very very busy and so i just ate whatever the hell was there and so you know we'd go to these places i just i those hush puppies are so damn good and i just get like a double order of these things and uh amazing and so like yeah if you didn't have a really good reason to give those up you know i i think it'd be very difficult to do that um it was actually funny you know the the director of the program um in plastics he sort of you know made a comment that he he called obesity um biscuit toxicity that's how he referred to it as you know and uh and i remember sort of you know i think it was a funny way of saying it at the time but then i'm thinking now is this like actually is that that's exactly how i think of it now is it is this a toxicity you're eating this thing you're getting a toxic explosion it's having this effect on your body and uh but yeah hush puppies fantastic things then yeah i wish i wish you know they they weren't what they were yeah what the right they are that would be great but my wife from yeah she's from mississippi so i mean she's a southern belle and yeah you're gonna get a whole