Is Your Thyroid Is Dying On The Carnivore Diet? - Doctor Explains

[Music] the argument that, oh, you're going to screw up your thyroid, you're going to get electrolyte imbalances, you're going to mess with your hormones. Well, then how did we exist during the ice ages going north? And how do the Inuits How are the Inuits alive now? How am I alive now? You know, um, low thyroid is devastating. It can be fatal. And um when a pregnant woman has low thyroid that is very very damaging to the child. You get a you get a condition called cretinism uh which is uh very obvious. They have short stature. They have a you know changes physical changes to their facial characteristics and they have very low intelligence. They they it really damages the development of their brain. >> And so you know and you call someone you creatin or something that's what they're referring to. Like all the best insults are are actually like medical terms and things like that. Like idiot that actually means uh someone who has an IQ of in the range between 0 and 30. >> Imbbecil is 30 to 30 to 50 and then was uh yes. Yeah. 70 to 90 or something like that. And um or sorry 50 to 70 or something like that. Yeah. And so so now you know and that's uh and that's like been all the insults now. changed those since then because they they've had these these negative stigmas and things like that. But uh yeah, so that cretinism is a very devastating uh congenital uh uh condition. You would have an entire population of people with cretinism in that in those conditions if car if carbohydrates uh caused that, you know, but you don't and you have these people living generationally and perpetually without that. And so that's clearly not happening. So that that doesn't even really pass the smell test. And and there, you know, with all the different, you know, who guidelines on eating and and all these different sorts of, you know, governmental uh uh recommendations, the all of these people are still agreed that there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. You do not have to eat carbohydrates at all in your life. There are multitudes of examples of entire civilizations that have never eaten carbohydrates. So that's certainly not the case. You do not have to eat carbs. And I would argue that it's you you're better off without them. But if you want to eat them, great. But you certainly don't have to have them. >> It's such a good point. I mean, if you think look at the sort of the ideology of hypothyroidism, a lot of it is autoimmune >> caused by poor food choices. It's not eating uh you know pasture eggs and ghee butter and and ribeye right so a lot of people that um are that receive medical benefit or therapeutic nutrition lifestyle benefits uh it's by omitting some of these foods eggplant or tomatoes or things like that which leads me to suggest and and confirm what you were saying is is is you know we're removing that smoldering background inflammation allowing the immune system to self-regulate and have tolerance and not uh attack its own tissue like the thyroid. So, yeah, you bring up a great point on that. Um, >> yeah, I was I was just going to make make a quick point on the thyroid. You know, like you say, you know, like it can be autoimmune uh uh driven. We see I have a number of patients with with Hashimoto's thyroiditis and there's a lot of people that come to functional medicine clinics because they're just they're just a little off. They're having weight problems and things aren't just working right. Quite a lot of these have underlying Hashimoto's like like a number of them. uh a lot more than you would you would sort of expect, but that that's sort of selecting for a particular population that are really having trouble losing weight. They're not and they're then they're just there's something wrong. And so, um we find that there's there's a number of these people have have Hashimoto's or even developing Hashimoto's and we have since put them on a carnivore diet. All of them have recovered in uh or or beginning to recover. Obviously, they're in different stages, but um every single one that we've we've put on a carnivore diet has has made significant improvements, you know, reduced their antibbody level and uh and and made gained functionality in their thyroid as well. There was um Dr. Paul Mason out of Sydney who I has a lot of great videos on like low carb down under who I'll be actually speaking at this later this year in uh Gold Coast. Um he had a great lecture on uh lectins and how these can actually be uh precipitating the autoimmune issues. You know, they get into your body, you know, via, you know, leaky gut. And so now they're physically in your body. They're not supposed to be there. Should just pass right through. Um but now your body recognizes these things as as harmful. they're creating antibodies towards them because these things are are similar enough to some people with certain genetic uh genetics that they are then you know through molecular mimicry now attacking you know part of your body as well. And so you get this spillover effect uh you know attacking the lectin and now those those things are still in your system and so they're attacking that part of your body as well. And by removing these lectins, not eating these things, healing your leaky gut, all of a sudden your body's not trying to create antibodies for those lectins. now you don't have a whole bunch of uh antibodies in your body and they're not attacking your thyroid or or uh you know causing Crohn's or ulcerative colitis or anything like that and uh so I thought that was quite quite interesting as well as as a as a physiological mechanism for autoimmune >> that's huge and then translating that to the brain the neuroinflammation that's an area that uh I know you study a lot about and as a neurosurgeon >> you know you're going in and and is it laparoscopic or you're like making incision in the actual skull and then is that a lot of like your dayto-day day stuff as a physician. >> Yeah. So, I mean there's there's a number of different things. You certainly can go endoscopically. There are some some procedures that you you do. You sort of do like a like a bur hole like just a little hole in the in the bone there and then you depending on what you're doing you would you pass a little um probe through it'll be blunt. If you if you if you sort of put a needle through it will it will cut its way through and damage all the cells in between which is pretty devastating. Can cause bleeds. But if you have it have it rounded, blunted, and you push through, it actually just pushes a lot of the the cells and and axons to the side. And so it causes less damage. I'm sure they're damaging things, but they're much much less damage because the brain is very soft. It's like soft serve. You know, once you get past the the sacks around the brain, the dura, um, which are quite tough once you get into the actual brain itself, it's it's literally like soft serve ice cream. I mean, you just you can just push through without any effort. It's just mush. Yeah. And um and so you so you pass this probe through and then you can sort of through that same track put your endoscope which is you know probably half a centimeter uh wide and then you go in then you're in the ventricles which is the the hollow spaces inside uh the brain which is where the cerebral spinal fluid would would form and and you go in there you can sort of look around and and grab things if you want if you're doing something in the ventricles. Uh that's a good approach for that. Other otherwise um you you might have a different you might have a different approach. If you're going for a tumor and you're trying to resect the tumor then you might you make a bigger incision and a cranottomy. It's just just taking out a bony window >> however however big for what you're doing and you take that off. You get through the dura and then you're able to get into the brain and sort of you know use bipolar and sort of cauterize around the tumor and try to bring that sucker out on block. And it's uh or you have like traumas and you have different different sorts of approaches for that. You might have to like, you know, take off do like a hemi craniactomy where you do like a very big incision like a question mark down on the side of the head and you take off all of the bone on that side and you sort of get at this acute bleed because when you when you bleed, you know, we think of blood as liquid, but of course it coagulates and so it turns into this big clot. And so if it's new blood, it's just this big thick clot and you have to take off you can't just pop a little hole and just drain blood because it's just thick. So you have to take off a big chunk of bone so you can get all this this thick clot so it's not compressing the brain because again the brain is very soft and so even you know congealed blood is enough to compress the brain >> you know >> that is wild just curious I have another friend Ryan who's who's a neurosurgeon uh he was really into video games in high school did you play video games at all like his hand dexterity is like next level because a lot of neurosurgery is like robotic and things like that was that part of your your forte or >> I did I did actually play video games yeah I did like video games. I, you know, obviously, you know, now you I can't really do that just because I I I do enjoy them. Like they just take so much time and I just don't have time. Um, especially now with like the, you know, the podcasting and things like that on top and, you know, trying to trying to, you know, write up uh, you know, papers and a book and all that stuff. Like if I just started playing video games again, I just I just wouldn't be able to get anything done. Suck. >> Yeah. But uh, yeah. No, I've I've always liked video games and uh, you know, and and yeah, I've had have had that hand that coordination as well. Yeah. I'm sure that's that's helped. uh with that as well. Yeah. >> Um it's fascinating. I I guess the question where I was going with this is the the hisytologology of the brain. Um you know, someone has a lifetime of metabolic disease, fatty liver, congestive heart failure, atherosclerosis. Is that sort of recognizable when you get into the brain? Can you sort of see I mean just as a gross observation, an unhealthy brain versus a healthy brain? Or is gray matter gray matter gray matter? like I mean you can see different manifestations generally when you're when you're looking at unhealthy brain you you have like a bleed or compression it's bruise and it's disease and there's like a tumor under there that's that's when you'll see distinctive uh visual uh differences but you actually see uh uh actual browning of the bone and older people or sick people and browning of of the of uh you know the brain as well. It's called the myard um reaction where you're actually like you know glycating Yeah. glycating and you know oxidizing like these these different things like when when you cook and you brown something it browns it that's that's myard uh reaction and we actually do this to ourselves. So you have you have someone who has uh who who hasn't really been taking care of themselves, you know, or someone who's who's like a kid, bone is like bright white, you know, it's clean, it's white, it's it's pristine, you're like, that's a healthy looking bone. >> And then you get someone who's older, they've been smoking and drinking and and not really taking care of those. That's actually brown. You know, the bone itself is brown and yellowed. And so you can you can certainly see those those sorts of things. Yeah. When you get in the body, >> does it smell different as you're cutting into the skull? Can you kind of tell an unhealthy person by just a smell or is it all >> Um, I haven't really noticed that uh myself, but you know, probably you you probably could, you know, um but uh not that I've I've I've known so far, but I'll probably I'll take a look for that. >> It' be interesting to see. But um I think one of the more sort of fatal forms of cancer you know really we were talking about glyopblastoma multififor is that it >> multifor or or just GBM >> GBN um you know five five year survival rate is like single digit percentage right and but what we we talked about Thomas A freed and and other people are using a metabolic approach to to you know sort of ailarate all the issues that that are associated with that um can you speak to how our metabolism I mean to me it's just fascinating that that you can change your diet and then that improves the the capacity of the body to to recover from this really fatal tumor. >> Yeah. Well, that that's the thing, you know, as Professor Safe would say, um, you know, if you understand that the cancer biology to it. It's actually, you know, uh uh it's not that that difficult to to imagine that this plays a huge role or even that you know that it it's going to play a huge role because, you know, as he argues and he makes a very very strong case for it is that cancer is actually a metabolic disease. It's not a genetic disease. Goodam a good good example of this which I've I've pointed out and noticed is that you know since we made these massive dietary changes in the 1980s we vilified meat and fat and started eating you know we we reduced our fat and intake by 30% cholesterol by 30% uh reduced red meat by 33% or so increased fruits and vegetables by 30 and 40% respectively as well as grains and sugar as well and uh you know since then you know all these different diseases so-called chronic diseases have increased you know the obesity rate triple heart disease triple stroke rate tripled. Cancer rates have tripled. Type 2 diabetes, autoimmune disorders, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, even neurode developmental delays such as autism have all increased exponentially. They almost didn't exist before then. Now they're the only things we treat. Um, so that's not genetic, you know, and they all increased at the same time, you know, and so that's very suspicious, you know, and I I you know, I would bet that, you know, you would say that this this very likely be diet related. uh but it is something something happened in our environment you know you you as a population you anyone who study population genetics know that you cannot change a population's genetics like that in that short of time even you know even even a number of generations I mean you need hundreds or thousands of generations to do something that dramatic genetically um so something in our environment and um so that means that something in our environment has affected our cancer rates because our cancer rates have tripled so it's not purely genetic is it, you know, or maybe we're just getting exposed to so many more carcinogens that destroy our genetics. Maybe, but I, you know, no one's really, you know, shown that we've been doing it. We're getting less sun than we ever have. You know, we're very conscious about, you know, uh, what we eat in the wrong direction, I'd say. You know, we're we're smoking less. We're, you know, drinking less, all these sorts of things. You know, people are much more conscious about and they're still getting these things. So, Dr. Seaff freed uh argues that this is this is really a disruption of our mitochondria. This is from a metabolic issue. We do know that people who go on a ketogenic diet who just are in ketosis, their mitochondria are more healthy, they have they're better at oxidative phosphorilization and they uh have more number. So they're they have like four times the number and they're like four times as effective. So they're much much better. They're giving you much better energy. um when you get damaged mitochondria and they stop being able to go through oxidative phosphorilization, they go back to one of our primitive uh modes of energy generation, you know, when when life was still a single cellled organism, which was fermentation. And so they start fermenting glucose and so they need a lot more glucose because it's not as efficient and they'll start making lactic acid and other byproducts. And um and so they'll actually need 400 times the amount of glucose. So, you can screw up your mitochondria in a number of different ways. And once they get to that point where they're just they're they're not going back and they're only fermenting, then you know, you you can you can get pretty screwed because it's the mitochondria that actually uh can then kick off reactive oxygen species that then damage your DNA. So, he or this is actually an epi effect, an epi phenomenon of the damaged mitochondria, not that they started the the genetics started it and then the rest happened. It was the mitochondria first and then um which we see you like in tumors like it's not just all the cells don't just have the same genes they they're all different you know and a lot of them have normal DNA and they act like cancer the mitochondria are all screwed the mitochondria are the gatekeeper the mitochondria are what stop the cell from proliferating out of control which is what cancer is so when you get those damaged and screwed up you know then you're getting uh you're going to be precipitating cancer But when you go back on a carniv keto diet or a carnivore diet, you are now severely limiting the food supply of those cancer cells because they need 400 times the amount of glucose to just run, right? And we've known this since like the 1930s with Otto Warberg who who won the Nobel Prize in in medicine for this research into cancer. And he argued then that this was a metabolic disease driven by the mitochondria. And Seaff Freed has actually proven he's has over 150 peer-reviewed papers on the subject and he's actually showed that Warberg was right. There's actually more to it than that because there's glutamine which is the most abundant amino acid in the body. This is actually something that cancers feed on as well. So you can take things like Dawn which is an acronym for large chemical name. I don't remember this at the moment uh that can actually limit the amount of glutamine. So this really really works at at suffocating and starving out these cancer cells. So when you go on a keto diet or a carnivore diet, you are really limiting the amount of energy that these cancer cells can get. So they're not going to be able to proliferate as well. Um your body works just fine because your body works on, you know, your cell normal glucose levels, blood sugar levels, glycogen levels, but also now you have a bunch of ketones. So you're working great. Cancer cells cannot run on ketones because their mitochondria are screwed. And so they get severely limited by this. and your body is much better able to contain and and and kill these little bastards, which it's trying to do the whole time. And you're also, you know, not continuing this this metabolic process of screwing up your your mitochondria and your other cells and uh and contributing to the whole problem. And so, you know, he's shown in animal models that this is very very very effective uh way of treating cancer. And there are different uh groups around the country and and around the world they're actually picking this up. Cedar Cyani have actually started doing this and and uh treating people metabolically these metabolic treatments um for cancer. Now it is the rule that you have to exhaust uh traditional therapies first, chemo radiation first before you get to go on to metabolic therapies. But you know if someone just says, "Yeah, I'm not doing that crap." It's it's their body. they get they get to choose it and so a number of people have he's done a lot of research with uh GBM which is the most aggressive form of primary brain tumor and it's you know it's a with treatment without treatment from time of diagnosis is average 3-month life expectancy um with treatment traditional treatment chemotherapy and radiation at the moment the the numbers are about 15 months there are some new things coming out new numbers coming out probably looking closer to two years that's great but you know published numbers right now are around 15 to 18 months uh from from time of diagnosis. But you have people that that see free knows and these people have been treating metabolically. They've never taken treatment. They've never taken chemo and radiation. They're still alive eight years down the track. They've had surgery for debulking, >> you know, but being just on keto, not even like carnivore, like dirty carnivore sort of, you know, keto sort of thing. they're they're still, you know, being alive and kicking eight years down the track. And I I have a aecdotal obviously, but there's a ton of animal uh models that show that this this is exactly what we're seeing. And um you know, and it's just a matter of of of doing those studies in in people. Uh but I have a friend of mine that I I sort of uh just said, "Hey, here's the research. Here's some information. Take a look at this. I really think this would help you. She was diagnosed with GBM uh about six years ago and she's still here. You know, she's got, you know, a husband and kids and and she's she's living a fairly normal life. She at her five-year check, MRI. She had no sign of disease, >> which is amazing. I don't know if she stopped being as strict. She was sort of dirty. She would sort of go back and forth, but a lot of it what she was doing was meat. And she did sort of take what I was saying to heart. Um and then sort of at six years it it started to come back and so she needed to get like a further debulking. Um but six years is is absolutely unheard of for for a GBM and especially to be you know completely functional and uh and home with your kids as well. Yeah. >> So cool. >> Hey guys, just want to take a second to thank our sponsor Carnivore Bar. I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat. For those times that you're out hiking, road tripping, or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat, fat, and salt if you want it, the Carnivore Bar is a great option. So, I like this product not because it's just pure meat, but also because I want the carnivore market to thrive as well. And the more we support meat only products, the more meatonly products there will be available in the mainstream. So, if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind, check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off, which also applies to subscriptions, giving you 25% off total. All right, thanks, guys. >> I mean, this this should be front page news, you know, but um some people have this perception. We we all have family and friends who would say, "Well, I could never just go on a carnivore diet or I could never What about bread? What about cookies?" It's like, well, you can eat those foods and you're not going to live as long. It it's amazing the addictive going back to what we were talking about with honey or fruit or fructose. like we have these uh rituals and habits and you know sort of connection to this food that some people would rather live a shorter lifespan than live without those things. Like it's it's wild. >> Which leads me to a question that I would love to dive further into is you made a you retain a really good physique and you're strong and everything like that. Um what do you currently eat? How many meals a day? Are you tracking protein? You know, is it do you include organs? Like there's all sorts of ways to go about it. you know, what's your personal approach? >> Yeah, I I almost exclusively eat just skeletal, muscle, meat, and fat. Uh I don't really eat too many organs, mostly through preference, you know, just they're not really what I want. I don't think you need them. I mean, I've been doing this five years in my early 20s and the last five years now. I've eaten liver twice in the last five years. I don't think I ate liver at all before that, you know. And um I you know I I you know I I look at like people like the Inuit who didn't eat the the organ meat certainly didn't eat the liver because the liver of of marine mammals was highly toxic uh for its vitamin A levels you know. So even just eating a little bit of of polar bear liver will kill you with the amount of vitamin A that it has in there. uh seals are sort of just below that, you know, like there's step up the food chain with the polar bears because the polar bears are eating the seals and so they have they have even more uh vitamin A which stores in your liver is fat soluble. It takes a long time to clear and so they wouldn't eat that at all. They give that to their dogs and you know um I know that that if people are proponents of of eating uh organ meat and livers uh and fine they say oh look at wolves you know they you know alpha wolf goes you know directly for the for the liver and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, maybe. But, you know, we're not dogs. We're not wolves. You know, we and and we do know that in in our relationship with dogs and wolves going back thousands and thousands of years traditionally, they they got the the organs and we got the meat. You know, Lewis and Clark, you know, expedition across uh, you know, America, they actually were talking about the same thing. They were hunting, they were eating meat and um and they found that the people that that fat was really really the the survival uh driver. So those who weren't were getting more lean weren't getting uh enough fat, they were dying. They were dying on this expedition. And so what they were doing is they were giving the lean cuts and they were giving the organs to the dogs that they were with and they were eating going for the fattiest part. And those were the those were the guys who survived. So, I don't I don't think that objectively you need organ organ meat. I don't think you need it. I also don't think that um you need it in in the proportions that some people get because, you know, obviously if you're hunting an animal and you you take down an animal, you have a liver, you know, one liver for Yeah. for hundreds of pounds of of animal meat, you know, and so that's a very very different proportion. So, you know, if I if I, you know, took down a cow and I bought a cow from a butcher, you know, that's going to feed me and my family for like a year or more, it's going to come with one liver, you know, and so eating liver in a in a significant proportion every single day is out of proportion with what I would would find if I was just hunting. So the idea of this, oh, they just eat nose totail, isn't actually necessarily true. But even if it is, that's a very specific proportionality. Um, but you know, the the Native Americans uh would traditionally when they hunt, they would take down an animal and they would gut it, they would dress it, and they would actually cut off the hind quarters and they would hang those up as like an offering to the spirits or or whatever. But but really, I mean, look at this. This was this was the leanest part of the animal. They were hanging those up and they would take down the four quarters and the steaks and you know uh and they would take that back. They often didn't pack back the organs you know but you know animals that eat you know go for the belly you say oh they're going for the organs they're going for the organs. Well are they or are they going for the belly fat which is the bacon which has the most fat in the body and there's a ton of abdominal fat intraabdominal fat. The momentum is just fat you know and all this fat around the organs. So, I would argue that they're probably going for the fat more than the organs, you know, but either way, I I don't think that we need organs. And if you're going to have organs, think about that proportionality because you even with a cow liver, eventually you you can get vitamin A uh you know, toxicities. And that those are bad. You know, vitamin toxicity is just as bad as a vitamin deficiency. They can both be fatal. They can both cause serious harm. Um, so mostly I'm just eating steaks, you know, brisket, mostly beef. And I often will just eat once a day. So I'll eat just like a very big fatty meal until I'm full at night. And if I'm able to do that, I'm generally not hungry for like another 24 hours unless I'm very active and I'm working out a lot, lifting weights a lot, then I will find that my body just wants more and I'll have um, you know, basically twice as much. So I'll usually double that. So, I'm usually about, you know, two two and a half pounds of fatty beef a day. And if I'm working out a lot, I might eat two to four two or sorry, four to five pounds of meat in a day. And I, you know, and and that, you know, when I'm able to do that, I can I can just stack on a lot of weight, you know, when I'm working out as well, which is great. >> And and how much are you training on average in the gym and stuff like that? >> Oh, yeah. When I can, I try to go four days a week and then when I get into a rhythm, maybe I'll even go like five or six days a week. And I I really try to push myself uh as hard as I can. You know, if I don't have much time, I no matter what I do, every set that I do, I'm always going to failure. Um I if I have a spot, I'll go like, you know, three, four, you know, reps past failure. And I, you know, that's always great to be able to do that. Um and I find that that is the most effective way of getting gains. I've had I've worked out with a lot of people over the years that were, you know, professional level athletes and other people that were, you know, just, you know, wanted to work out um, you know, for fun or for for um, you know, just to stay in shape and look good. And, you know, the ones that get real results are or those people that you just push yourself until you're exhausted. Nutrition is obviously very important as well, but I've worked out with people that just sort of do, you know, you know, 10 reps of something. Oh, yeah, that was good. Oh, that felt good. But like it was easy for them, you know? And I find that if you are able to do 12 reps, if you can squeak out 12, but you stopped at 10, like you're really holding yourself back. I consider those last two the actual workout. >> You know, Muhammad Ali said, you know, they asked him like, "Oh, how many, you know, sets do you do? How many reps you do? How many of these do you do?" He said, "I have no idea." Like, I don't I don't count. I I get to I get to the point that I'm tired and then I start counting to see how many more I can push myself to do. And so that's uh that's where you'll get the real results. And so when I'm able to work out, that's what I try to do. So I'll try I I try to at least go four days a week um and put in extra days uh where I can and then just going really really hard. But you know, with my schedule, it's been a lot less than that. You know, sometimes it's only like maybe once a week or maybe even once a month. >> Um you know, and obviously it's um very just very dependent on work. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh that's got to be tough. Yeah. you're putting in big long weeks, you know, and things like that. But I'm glad going back to the liver. I'm really glad you brought that up. I mean, that's something that I talk about a lot uh to clients that I'm working with because liver has been touted to be the superfood and we all have to have desiccated liver capsules and you have to cook it every single day. But you're right, if you've ever harvested or processed an animal, um you get p hundreds of pounds of muscle meat and and like maybe a two to three pound liver depending upon, you know, the size of the animal, right? And it's and then we're the gurus on the internet are telling us we have to have this every single day. You're you'd be taking down a lot of animals to m sustain that which is not really realistic. So I love how you frame that and put language to helping people to conceptualize that. >> That's not to undermine some of the health benefits that could be achieved through having liver but it's like yeah put it in context. Well, but also it's like, you know, when you're on a carnivore diet or eating a keto diet, like you just need a different constellation of nutrients and you'll actually need less of these things just for a lot of different reasons. You know, for instance, like you know, our RDAs for vitamin C to save off scurvy is 10 milligrams a day to not get scurvy, right? But when you're not eating carbohydrates and you're not eating plants, you actually you actually need it in nanogs versus milligrams. All right. So, this this is a obscenely different amount that you need. And so, um, if you're eating a mixed diet and you're eating a bunch of processed crap that don't have many nutrients and probably block a lot of nutrients and make it so that you need more of these basic nutrients, liver is probably your best friend. You know, that's probably the only thing keeping some people alive. But when you're when you're on this when you're on a keto or carnivore diet, you really don't. and and so this can this can become an excess very quickly and uh and certainly you know eating supplements why would you need supplements if we're if we're arguing that this is our natural biologically appropriate species specific diet you should not have to take any supplements whatsoever because you know if you need supplements just to get basic nutrition then by definition your diet is deficient in those nutrients and so you know if you're eating naturally it's not going to be by definition. So yeah, I don't think you certainly don't think you need to take supplements or anything like that. And you know, coincidentally enough, usually the people really pushing, you know, that you have to take supplements to eat liver are usually the guys selling the supplements for liver, you know, which is fine. Like I I'm I'm a big fan of people putting their money where their mouth is and they believe in something like, hey, this is this is good for people. I'm going to start an industry behind it. I'm really all for that. I hope more people get involved in in in creating um you know products in the carnivore space and the keto space to help people get healthy. I'm all for that. >> But at the same time, you know, it might be a conflict of interest there. And uh and I certainly don't think, you know, if you're if you're eating a mixed diet though, fine. You know, a liver supplement might might be right up your alley, but uh not if you're you're just doing like a carnivore diet. >> Yeah, makes a lot of sense. >> Botney class will tell you. Anybody who studies horiculture botney can certainly tell you this that that plants have different defenses because they're living organisms and all living organisms have a defense against being against being eaten. While animals can run away or fight back, plants can't. And so they need to use other methods. And one of those methods is by being actively poison, making defense chemicals.