It's NOT Hopeless If You Suffer From Multiple Sclerosis! (MS) | Pennie Roehr

welcome to the plantree MD podcast with Dr Anthony chaffy where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically all right hello everyone thank you for joining me for another episode of the plant-free MD podcast I'm your host Dr Anthony chaffy and today I have a very special guest Miss U Miss Penny Roar who has um had a very very interesting story about her recovery from multiple sclerosis Ms using a carnivore diet Penny thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story thank you for having me yeah well you're very welcome and um we've been talking you know quite a bit off off camera uh you have an absolutely amazing story and and Recovery I mean multiple sclerosis is something that is a progressive disease just like so many of the other chronic diseases that we face now as a as a Mainstay of um you know Modern Health and society and it's thought to be that this is just going to progress it's only going to get worse maybe you have periods of static symptoms where it doesn't get a lot worse but it's not really getting better and then it starts getting worse or just continually gets worse it very very rarely gets better but if it does get better it's for a short time and then it gets worse again so your story in particular and something that we're seeing a growing body of people experiencing on a carnivore you're actually getting improvements as opposed to transient sort of improvements or stasis and then worse again so that's I think is very very important to talk about and so thank you very much uh for sharing that um can you can you tell us a bit about your experience with with Ms with multiple sclerosis when that came on and how that affected you how the treatment affected you and then what brought you to a carnivore diet and and what you what you saw with um with your health at that point okay so I was when I first had my a very first Ms symptom I was 17 it was 1996 I was a senior in high school I was very active and my first symptom was um numbing and tingling down my left side and I was 17 I just thought oh because I was active I said nothing to anybody you know I just went about it didn't really impact me it was just uncomfortable and um a couple years later um in '98 when I was 19 I got optic neuritis in my right eye and I completely lost my eyesight in my right eye and um you know my mom took me to an aadress and that's the first time they had mentioned Ms and um you know it got better my site came back and we just kind of Let It Go and there's kind of a gray area between when I got the optis and why I had the um MRI back I had the MRI an O2 or 03 I was diagnosed in 03 and I can't remember what brought me to having the MRI but then I had the MRI and um can you pause for a second sorry go so I had my MRI in 2002 2003 and it showed some lesions on my neck and brain and then um I got married in May of 03 and this two months afterwards they did the lumbar puncture and um to rule out I think it is uh lupus they were with the lumbar puncture they were trying to Ru out lupus to um confirm that it was a mess okay but after my lumbar pcture they confirmed it was a mess I was 24 and honestly it really wasn't impacting me too much so I really didn't take my diagnosis very seriously I actually had a home nurse after my botched um Lumber puncture that that left me bed ridden for a month I actually you know my husband and I were told by the nurse not to have kids that'll put you in a wheelchair and we had already planned out we were going to have a family I mean this is two months after we were 24 23 you know two months after our wedding we're like no we're going to have kids and um in 2005 well 2004 I got pregnant and had my daughter in 2005 and when I was pregnant like as soon as sorry I'm going to backtrack a little bit but um when you know my doctor the first thing he did was like any symptom that you have call me and I'll give you a medication MH anything and before long before I even knew it I was on a cocktail of medicines it you know for um you know uh muscle spasms headaches uh numbing and tingling you know all of that and like neuropathy pain so you know when I got pregnant obviously I went off all of those and all through my first pregnancy it's like my and my symptoms went dormant I didn't have a single symptom at all and it was like oh this is you know that was kind of nice but then after I had my daughter an 05 that's when the symptoms started back up and then um until we were done having kids we didn't start any drug modifying therapy drugs until he knew we were done having kids and then in ' 09 my son came along and then after I gave birth to him they we started on kxen the what was that daily is that the daily yeah that's the daily injection and um I was still having relapses so you know I was on that for a few months and not showing any Improvement and relapses so he decided to switch me to reuth which was an injection what was it three times a week I think this was back in 2010 and then um uh we one night I had gotten my flu shot in 2010 and then one night it was like 10 o'clock at night I was laying in bed and all of a sudden my neck just started getting really hot and I couldn't breathe and I'm like what is going on and um I got out of bed and my kids were wanted to say my daughter was five and my son was probably about 20 months and I couldn't sleep that night and it was like constant it felt it was anxiety and um you know the next day I called the doctor I'm like what is going on you know I thought it was from the flu shot and you know it took him forever and finally we couldn't figure out what was going on and the doctor's like oh it's just all in your head I'm like yeah there's something going on in my head I keep having these panic attack to where you know it's like the back of my neck would heat up and it's like me I'm very claustrophobic get me out of wherever I'm at I need to get outside I need to get and that was the winter we had really bad ice storms and so I would just open the door and that would calm me down you know soon as my heart rate um lowered and it got cooled down the anxiety would you know go away but um it it was a good three or four months of going through this it's like why I've never had anxiety ever in my entire life like an actual uh pan full-blown panic attack I mean I've been anxious but I've never had an actual panic attack so I didn't understand what was going on and and then finally a representative from reeth had reached out to me to check to see how I was doing and I talked to this nurse and she's like yeah anxiety is a side effect because I guess has something to do with it being interferon I guess it um crosses the blood brain barrier that's correct I'm I don't so yeah I'm not too sure but it it it's an interferon and um she said yeah anxiety is a side effect and I'm like I'm done I stop the injections right there I'm like I am done and I called at my doctor I said I'm not taking this anymore they're like oh no you don't don't stop I'm like I'm done I like I've got a 5-year-old and 20-month-old I'm not going to be sitting here having a panic attack and um so I I stopped that and then they you know they were looking for other stuff to try me on and they wanted me to try galenia but when we went in there they were it was so dangerous you had to go like your first injection you had to be monitored cuz it was such a dangerous drug you know they had several I don't know dangerous but they had a lot of um people dying from it and my husband and I like my kids are so young then you know and we're like uh no we're not doing this and it took a little bit and then they decided to put me on Tech federa so okay so I go on Tech federa that was probably 2011 2012 I'm thinking about 2011 I went on Tech federa the side effects were not the most Pleasant you know it has the flushing I would take it and probably within a half hour my skin would turn beet red and I'm very pale so you would be able to tell and I would just feel like I had just gotten into to a burning pit cuz my skin would be so beat red and it would just burn up but that would last probably 15 minutes to a half an hour just very unpleasant and I was on that you know for a few years and then in um 2017 my husband had lost his job so we had lost their insurance and I got tired you know we I spent a year of trying to find Charities to help me pay for this medicine that's $88,000 a month you know until he finally got a job that had benefits to help with you know the bulk of the cost and I just come 2018 I'm you know I was getting sick a lot in the winters I always had sinus infections or um bronchitis you know I was always getting sick but sinus infections were the main thing and um you know sorry that's okay um let me just second I may want to pause where am I at you you were saying that you were getting sick a lot you had this very expensive medication it was about $8,000 yeah us which is about $12,000 Australian it's massive massive cost I mean you're talking about that's like that's more if if you're talking about that you know $8,000 a month you know that's $96,000 a year that's far above the national average um for an annual income uh pre-tax and this would be post tax you're using post tax dollars um to use this so you're really using about $130,000 in pre-tax dollars to pay for that so it's a massive massive massive um burden and expense and probably one of the one of the chief reasons why no one's really looking for cure to Ms because the the treatment is just so darn lucrative why would they why would they shoot the Golden Goose you know um golden eggs so um but yeah so you're talking about that and you're having a lot of side effects which makes sense you know these are these are immune suppressant and they will suppress your immune system that is exactly what it says and you're going to get infections you're going to get uh more colds and flu and bacterial science infections and chest infections and these sorts of things you get higher cancer rates because the immune system helps fight off cancer as well and it's um you know is you know like you said it it does not you know these medications can help keep you know very serious disease like Ms at Bay or at least slow it down but it comes with its own host of of complications which is of what were talking about there okay are you still recording or we're still recording yeah okay so um let me figure out where I'm going to be at so where was I at okay Tech federa was it was $8,000 a month and I just got to a point you know my kids 2010 that you know this would have been 2018 so my daughter would have been 13 CH my son you know 4 years younger and I just got to a point I'm like I'm I would rather um sorry shoot take your time okay so in 2018 I decided I'm done with the DMT meds because you know like with Cancers they they suppress your immune system I was always getting getting sick and I sorry your buddy's going to have to do a lot of editing they're fine there's nothing there's no problem um oh my gosh I am so sorry you're okay but I was always getting sick and um so I decided you know I would I I don't I don't want cancer and that was the one of the main side of you know drawbacks to have an immune suppressant drug was cancer and all these other ailments that you know you've open your body up to when you suppress your immune system you're not you can't fight off anything and I'm like I'm done with these I would rather be in a wheelchair than to be six feet under or fighting off cancer with my kids so young so in July of 2018 again you know family wasn't too happy about it the doctor wasn't too happy about it but I'm like I'm done I'm done taking these and um and when I was done really I didn't I mean I still had attacks but I really didn't see much of a difference from when I went off the drug as suppose when I was on the drug so I didn't really see much difference of attack cuz I I would get two to five attacks a year so I really I just I had had enough yeah here W and then so so you you did that for a period of time so 2018 and then and then you stayed off medication that whole time presumably have you gone on back medication since then or is it just all hands off I I I was done yeah done with the medications in 2018 and of course now I'm in a wheelchair but you know things are starting to look up mhm since starting carnivore because I had tried I had tried going gluten-free you know I've done all kinds of research I tried the no gluten I tried you know I used to eat um nothing but salads and fruit smoothies you know and I did have an addiction to sugar because I don't I have a high metabolism I don't gain weight so one thing that I started back in 2010 was I would have a hard time taking all my medicines and getting them swallowed so I started eating ice cream before bed every night and it wasn't just ice cream it would be ice cream and chocolate syrup with cookies on there and sprinkle and anything else and that just became a normal habit for me because I was like oh I don't gain weight so it's not going to affect me any but um yeah so then what brought you to the carnivore diet then was that something that did you see other people with Ms in particular autoimmunity try that or did someone else introduce you to it or how how did you come across it in the first place because you know it's getting gaining more popularity now but obviously when you started this probably almost no one had heard about it well when I wasn't really having any results with you know like I'm I'm eating right I'm eating salads I'm eating leame Meats I'm eating fruit smoothies you know besides for the ice cream before bed I was actually eating pretty good but it's like I'm still having attacks I'm still bloated I'm still constipated and it's like why why am I staying constipated and Bloated when I'm just eating salads and smoothies you know granted the ice cream doesn't help but but I just getting so flustered it's like I'm still having attacks what is going on why is not working and then I came ac across Michaela Peterson and her story I was like okay this was kind of interesting so in 2019 October of 2019 wait a minute this is 2024 so um and in 2021 sorry October 2021 is when I decided all right I'll try C A bir diet I tried it for a week my husband went got me all the grass-fed beef you know it I didn't last very long I tried it I was like okay this is near the holidays there's so much sugar everywhere I I bailed out and then I decided you know we went through the holiday days a crud I felt like crud so you know I had gotten a gift card to our local grocery store so I decided you know January 2nd is when I stopped all the crap and you know my husband went to the grocery store for me because he does all the shopping because I am disabled and so he does most of the Brun work is on him and and so he went to store and he bought me all kinds of RI eyes because we had this gift card and he they were on sale so he bought me a bunch of RI eyes and that's when it started was um January 2nd of 2020 two is when I started and I haven't I mean it's been a bumby road ever since then and definitely a roller coaster ride and but I would never go back mhm I've learned a lot since then but um cuz I remember like the first I would say when they say carnivore flu keto flu yeah I definitely got that and I had that for a while thank God for Courtney Luna who helped me through a lot of that you know I was still battling my sugar addiction like I would still sneak a chocolate bar before bed I mean I did really good for the first few months and then my daughter was graduating in May of 2023 and it's like okay this Carnival flu has got to stop because I guess I couldn't now I look back and it's like I know I was just getting too much fat because I went all in on Carnivore and I mean I just increased my animal fat like all at once and I'm and I look back now it's like okay that's what I did wrong but I'm one of those It's All or Nothing type of people if I'm going to do it I'm going to do it because I I can't gradually do it you know how people will just gradually ease into it I can't do that because I'll never stick with it but anyways um when my daughter had to graduate in May and I'm like okay she's got uh Wards night we had all kinds of stuff anybody has anybody a kid who's graduated knows you have so much going into graduation I'm like this has got to stop so I kind of slowed down I started add it in sneak in the candy bars and you know I look at the ingredients and then you know I Corney got on me about that and it kind of died off a little bit like the carnivore kind of died off a little bit and I made it through the summer and I I made it through the summer and into the fall and I did pretty good with not you know I would have bouts of chocolate Cravings milk chocolate was my main thing I ABS loved milk chocolate little Hershey bars or Hershey Kisses was my go-to or I would snake um chocolate chips the um milk chocolate chips that would be my daughter would bake cookies I would sneak those but um going into the fall I was doing pretty good I did not have a single attack through 2022 which was amazing because I went from having one to five attacks a year to having zero yeah wow I had no attacks through 2022 and but then Here Comes winter and Christmas of 2022 and my husband and son and daughter they're they're not carnivore and my husband oh man they just had sugar everywhere you know around Christmas time the cookies the cakes the pie and I was sneaking them left and right I was like oh I'm carnivore but I was still sneaking you know the sweets and the candy bars and the milk chocolate stuff and I was kind of veering off of it but I still didn't have any vegetables or anything while come January of 2023 that came back and bit me because I started noticing my left side started getting numb and so did my right side and I was like uh oh this is not good and lo and behold I had an attack and it was a brutal one it completely paralyzed my left side it was pretty brutal and um I'm like okay I'm done no more sugar I'm done with the sugar and ever since I'd attack I haven't you know I think I'm kind of messing up my dates here but um let's see all through 2022 no attacks when did I okay let me go back this is almost the end of 2024 so it it's 202 three I'm sorry okay is when I started the con diet was one because I'll be two years January 2nd of 2025 so I'm off a year sorry that's okay um but I went all through 2023 no attacks and then now this year I had the major attack in January and I was like okay no more but I haven't had any since and I saw my neurologist back in um July now mind you my neurologist likes he he's a pill Pusher we'll just put it that way but um my small area I have lack of options I have to dry well my husband drives me 90 minutes just to get to this neurologist that is an MS an MS specialist and on the MS board so you know that's who he went to but and I've been seeing him for 2 years but he's never tried to help me get to the root cause he always wanted to put medical Band-Aids on only symptoms not you know let's find out what's going on but I went to him in July of this year and I was telling him about it like last year he wasn't too thrilled about the carnivore diet and then I told him about it this year and he he admitted he's like yeah I think you've put it in remission and all the I've been having really weird symptoms where like constant itch and the it's like it it's really it's hard to describe but it's like burning you know in certain sorry certain parts of my body it's just like oh Mia um it would be burning just burning like on fire and I'm like what is going on and he's like th those are symptoms of your nerves healing I'm like okay I it's very unpleasant but you know we'll see what happens from here and so that's where we're at for now yeah but one thing I did notice like going back to anxiety that you know I would try to introduce like honey and fruit back into my diet anytime I introduce sugar back into my diet I would have an anxiety attack within an hour and I was like okay yeah I can't do the fruit I can't do the honey I can't do any sugar so I don't wonder you know 2010's when I started the Ice Cream binge constantly and then that's when I had my first panic attack and I'm you know did the sugar so I'm thinking the sugar is probably what brought on the anxiety hey everyone really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show for everybody down in Australia Stockman staks who are delivering highquality grass-fed and finished pasture raised beef and other meats flash frozen and vacuum sealed tood door something I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well they also have a great range of specialty items such as high fat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver kidneys and beef art as well so use code chaffy today for a free order of beef mints or another specialty gift along with your order at Stockman steaks.com and I'll see you over there thanks guys well that um that makes sense actually it's interesting I was just speaking uh with u my patreon group today I one of them mentioned um a lady that I had on my podcast previously actually had Ms and she put it into remission with the carnivore as well she had some mental health issues and some psychoses that she had um put in termission uh with the carnivore diet and then she started going to the sort of the honey sort of side of things oh Honey's carnivore it's fine and started using that and actually her her symptoms started coming back on and actually her her psychosis started coming back on and and she started slipping off further and further and then okay no I really have to you know come back and and just stay in in a much more narrow Focus um but that's you know especially with mental health that's something that being in in ketosis is is very important for having that that the healthy functioning mitochondria seems to be extremely important for mental health and neurological Health in general for Ms in particular it's obviously you need all these different nutrients that only exist in meat all the different fat essential fatty acids and fat soluble vitamins that that only exist in meat and then B12 which is not fat soluble but it only exists in meat from a dietary source and without that uh you actually cannot remin your nerves and Ms is a dementing disease your your body is getting your the mation around your nerves uh the nerve fibers which are the axons from the nerve uh bodies they get wrapped up in this this marination and that's predominantly uh cholesterol first of all cholesterol and saturated fat but it requires an abundance of B12 in order to remyelinate that and if you get below in American numbers it would be around 540 pyrs per milliliter which is probably 2/3 of the range of what's considered normal in the US because everybody's deficient and so they look at the average it's just like oh that's that that's the the reference range you want to be in because that's what everybody else is in well everybody else is sick and malnourished so you don't want to compare yourself to that below 540 pagr per milliliter or five or 400 uh P moles per liter in other other countries it's uh it has been found that you can actually get demyelination of your axon so even even if you don't have MS you don't have any other sort of things causing damage because your your body can't because you're constantly turning over uh the myelination around your nerves that if you don't have enough B12 you can't keep turning this over so they're only breaking down but they're not rebuilding back up and you actually get demalation and Oxford University showed study in 2008 um where I believe it was below 330 Pices per per liter which would probably be around 4450 pams per millit in US numbers people that have below that after then they did serial MRIs every year that after five years their brain shrank by 5% volume so and that and that and a normal reference range can go down to like 130 150 as we're saying yeah that's completely normal as we saying well you know only 15% of people are B12 deficient no no I'd say about 95% of people are actually B12 deficient it's just it's hidden because every since everybody's B12 deficient now no one's B12 deficient so it's only like 15 20% of people that are even below that that are just dramatically you know dangerously deficient to the point that I mean this is going to be this is going to cost them their life if they don't address this soon um so it you know from Ms you know this is something that I um would be curious about in your case but I always always ask my patients that have MS or you know I always check in my patients is there B12 and and making sure that it's up at a at a much higher level actually in American numbers 1100 to 1600 is where I want that to be P GRS per milliliter and 800 to 12200 for PES per leader in the rest of the rest of the world is where I try to get my patients especially if you have MS because you you just need you need that optimal amount of B12 to get that regrowth in nerves and and functionality is that something that you looked into did you check your your B12 actually yeah I had my labs done what was it probably a couple months ago actually and I got the results and I'm actually quite very healthy the only thing I was deficient in was folate okay which that's where I'm thinking you know we have a a line of family members who have neurological problem so you know I'm kind of investigating that a little bit more so I got a a fate supplement not was it not what's not folic acid yeah I got the actual folate where my doctor wanted me to go on folic cat and I'm like because luckily I had done some research that's just the synthetic form of folate correct it's it's a chemical structure even you know so so it's more than that it's not just synthetic it's just not the same chemical compound so it's slightly different work differently in your body um but liver is a really good um source of that you know 44% of women have Mt HFR G mutation which means that they they don't methylate um you know things like folate B12 these sort they don't they're not good methylators so that you'll just you'll just need more you know it's not that you can't do um you know to get this from just your diet doesn't mean you have to have supplements it just means you need more nutrient uh dense sources of that and typically uh that that would be liver you know bit of you know a couple ounces three days a week generally everybody I've seen that has had um you know low or borderline low folate level even if they weren't symptomatic you know I mean there's some people that do feel um not that great with um if they have low folate so many people I've seen that have low folate and they actually feel great they feel better than they ever had before um and their B12 is excellent and that's another thing too is that there are people that argue that you actually don't need folate if you have a sufficient amount of B12 because they basically do the same thing um I'm a bit agnostic to that I I'd rather just see everything in good ranges and um you know know and then you get that with with uh a bit of liver you know so like you know two three ounces of liver three days a week I've I've never seen anybody deficient on folate uh even with MTHFR if they were to do that and um don't even need supplements but you know however you get there you know um I think I'll pass on the liver though yeah well that's the thing some people just don't just don't like it I found that it's not that bad you know it's as long as is the less you cook it the better it tastes that's the trick with liver and you know I we used to read Adele Davis who's a nutritionist from U early 1900s very very um impactful nutritionist and she and she was way ahead of her time she figured some things out without just from her own observation and and Keen Insight that you know it took it took 80 90 years of of scientific Endeavor and testing and all these sorts of things to to then verify but I mean she figured this out 100 years ago some of the things it's just like o well we we sort of know the body doesn't work quite like that anymore but all these other things she she just figured out um very very very um astutely and uh that was one of the things she always talked about was that that Raw Liver was one of the most important nutrients it was just such a good nutrient Source especially for people that were having issues uh pregnant women especially nursing women and then and then new babies just eating their first thing raw liver and specifically raw liver and that always horrified me thinking about raw liver but then I I tried some it tastes a thousand times better than cooked liver it is just night and day different I mean I I dislike cooked liver I enjoy Raw Liver it's weird it's very weird but um but I do you know you know Pat it dry so oh it's slimy okay fine you know it's um the texture is a bit weird but you know you you Pat it dry you take a bite it actually tastes good or you know put a bit of salt on it put it on a drying rack in the refrigerator like I do for my steaks after a couple of days it's almost like gummy like a Gummy Bear sort of U texture it's great it's like a meat gummy bear I'm like absolutely that's the only kind of gummy bear I want and so um I found that that um that can be a better way but you know either way I mean a couple ounces it's not much it's like it's literally like one bite you know one bite three days a week could probably get your head around that you know and um and uh and then you find it it's not all that bad uh but you can also grind it up in ground beef you can get your butcher to just to make a make a blend put like 15% liver in there and you just have you know couple of those patties few days a week actually it's fine you don't need much a little bit goes a very long way and will definitely cover you for for B12 and folate certainly if I could find it I know my B12 levels are actually quite High good like all my levels were really good yeah because of the reference ranges being averages if if you're if you're not high on your B12 you're probably low it's uh there's very few reference ranges actually get up into that what I would consider an optimal reference range for B12 yeah um some do but but most don't and so if you're if if it comes back and it's high I'm usually pretty happy with that as long as it's not like you know unrecordable you know high like oh this is actually over our scales you know then U then it's usually usually actually where you want to be as opposed to too high okay yeah mine is 1556 perfect yeah that's where mine what surprised me was actually my vitamin D because I am so pale and I have MS and anybody with Ms knows what heat does to us we're like we become cooked pasta a cooked spaghetti noodle and literally in the heat you know you just you can't function it's like everything just shuts off and you're just completely limp so I'm kind of shocked at my vitamin D levels were actually pretty high because I'm not out in the Sun or the heat and also another thing that happened in 2010 I had an attack and after that attack I no longer was sweating and I could no longer regulate my body temperature oh wow and so I'm like did they did it attack the hypothalamus then you know but I haven't been able to regulate body temperature since 2010 so I really have to be careful with being outside like I'll get overheated very quickly and then in the winter I shiver it's like it's hard for me to get cooled down or warmed back up I'm hoping maybe that'll actually heal well hope yeah I was kind of surprised with my vitamin D levels well but there there's a ton of vitamin D3 in animal fat and if you're getting good quality animal fat grass-fed butter grass-fed beef fat you know wild CAU fish those sorts of things they're going to have a ton of of vitamin D and you were saying you're just just lion diet at this point right just just be red meat and water is that right sure um right now C's ice cream and chocolate no I don't do the ice cream and chocolate I don't I actually we had went out for dinner and I actually my son and husband stopped by Dairy Queen and got blizzards and while my husband was getting situated in the car I actually I was like all right I'm going to try his blizzard real quick I snuck a bite and I'm just like it actually kind of tasted nasty you know I've tried myself I've tested myself you know I've stolen some chocolate chips out of the pantry and I'm like this just doesn't taste the same anymore at all and you know a year ago I would have started binging on that because my addiction was so bad to chocolate and sugars and ice cream but now it's like I don't want any of it my taste buds have changed so much and it's weird cuz before I would want to have ketchup mustard Ranch you know all the sauces barbecue I needed them for my food you know my salads you know drenched them and oils and but now it's just like you know I can go pull my husband more grill for me on the weekends a bunch of burgers and I also like we get from I would say local Brer but it's 20 minute drive we're in a very small area but um beef dogs is what I call them they're beef hot dogs so he get he gets me some of those those're are like a treat for me don't pull them out of the fridge and I just EA them cold and my son's looking at me like don't you want to heat that up I'm like no I'm good you know my taste buds have changed so much it's crazy but right now I I love my sour cream I get some Daisy sour cream because it only has um cultured cream in it so I I do love like you know to get pork rinds and Dion sour cream and I seem to be doing okay with those so I do add some Dairy I haven't got rid of my cheeses my cheeses are my uh yeah they're I'm they're my weak spot I like my cheeses so and every now and then you know like I'll get into a kick like uh for a while I liked you know shaved ham MH which youve got to be careful because it's cured but I tried it out and it didn't do anything to me so I'm like okay I like this I put some cheese you know have a ham and hot ham and cheese just eat a plain no bread you know and have some sour cream on the side with pork grinds and I'm good to go and you know it's like I noticed my husband and son they love variety you know I see other people they love variety and I'm like everybody asked me aren't you bored I'm like no because now I look at Food it's like most people they celebrate with food you know food is celebratory and it's like now I look at food as fuel you know I don't look at it as oh I've got to you know we're going to be celebrating Christmas I I've got to stuff myself full of food it's like no you know I went to my mom's for Christmas last year and she like don't you want more to eat I'm like no I'm I had some ham I'm like no I'm good you know so that that's you know when once you look at Food differently then it becomes a lot easier yeah at least it has for me oh definitely yeah when you and you understand that you don't have to keep eating variety all these different sorts of things I think the the main thing with variety is that people are eating a deficient diet that they the the theity of nutrients and the things that they are eating and so they have to change up what they're eating because they have to get these other other vitamins and minerals and proteins and fatty acids that they they they are lacking so you can't eat the same meal I mean i' I've noticed that in myself I I was in my my pgy two years so my second year as a doctor you know I was trying to you know stay lean and play rugby and things like that which is difficult when you're working crazy hours and I so what I would I would sort of bring to work I would just make like a big spinach salad with some you know whatever dressing like Bernstein's dressing or something like that I always lik them them actually that was that was always my favorite dressing and and uh with like a chicken like a whole roast chicken i' pull it apart put it in there and put like you know you know uh roasted peanuts and things like that in there you know so I was trying to get some things that people said these are good things to eat I just wanted the chicken really and I just sort of ate this stuff along with it I just wanted the meat really and so when I would when I would do that um the First first day I like a this tastes so good it just felt it it just tasted great the next day it tasted good but it wasn't as good third day it was sort of like it was all right and the fourth day was like what the hell am I eating and uh it didn't make sense to me I was like why why is this tasting differently why is this why is this different every single day and why is it getting worse you know why you know shouldn't it just taste the same it should have tasted the same every single day it's the same chemicals I mean it should give the same chemical reaction it doesn't and so you know what that is I think is that you know you're you're building up you I was eating Big Tub of spinach every single day and my body's like hey you need to shut that down you know that's that's bringing in more stuff you don't want and you know chicken's fine but it's you know it's fairly lean doesn't have much of fat in and just it's not going to taste as good so um I think that that that's probably why and um and then you need to sort of change things up so you sort of are are getting you know the different constellation of of nutrients and you sort of balance out eventually that's what I think anyway and then when you just eating uh you very nutrient-dense food that covers all the essential vitamins minerals nutrients Cal fatty acids proteins Etc and getting in the right proportions which is very important especially for proteins and amino acids that you don't need that you know that's all you want cows don't get sick of grass lies don't get sick of gazelle elephants don't get sick the hell elephants eat so you know it's just like that's what they're supposed to eat that's where they're getting their nutrients from and that's and it tastes good to them for that reason and so you know uh nutrition in in nature is very monotonous it's just the same stuff day after day after day we're the only ones that that break from that and that I think has to do a lot with the nutrition the deficiency in the nutrients and the things that we're eating the different toxic levels and the the relative addictiveness of the different things that we're eating so we we feel We crave certain things and then need other things and you just have to eat all over the place it's very erratic and it makes no sense that you have to eat a balanced diet what the hell does a balance mean a steak is a balanced diet it has a perfect balance of all the vitamins minerals amino acids and fatty acids that you require for Optimal Health that's a balanced diet um the fat and the lean are the balance that's the balance diet a balance of plants and this and that no we're talking about a balance of nutrients and you get all that balance of nutrients you get that justtin eating fatty meat that is the balanced diet uh has evidenced by the fact that the Inuit exists and the nette exists and the Messi exist and they have you know up until very recently just eaten exclusively Carn carnivorous diet until they started getting more exposure to um you know Western societies um that were sort of the Bringers of plagues and chronic disease chronic disease stems from western expansion and that's because of the western diet I believe and they usually be called diseases of the West now they're just called diseases of civilization and now they're just called getting older or human diseases because now they're going into animals the animals that are in our care not the animals in the wild and um you know oh well you can say what you want about the Inuit or the this or that well what about the fact that we know humans were alive and well in the Arctic Circle during the ice ages please tell me which plants they were eating during that time and why that was required at that time if it was if it was required all of those people would be dead you'd not be able to live for thousands tens of thousands of years in those conditions without ever having access to plants um unless you didn't need plants that's all there is to it I mean it's very straightforward um but I think that's why is because you're getting such balanced nutrition it's perfect you don't need anything else um that that's why you just just taste great every single time and um but but it only tastes great when you're hungry and then it stops tasting great when you're not hungry which is how you self-regulate which should happen it should be self-regulatory if it's a biologically appropriate diet you shouldn't have to self-limit you shouldn't have to track calories or macros um you could do that but you shouldn't have to do that if you do have to do that then you're probably eating the wrong thing but I say is that you know if you have if you need a calculator to figure out what to eat you're eating the wrong thing you know be able to to self-manage it you know koalas don't bust out calculators to figure out their macros about you know getting fat or anything like that they just eat yeah you know they eat what their body tells them to eat and then they stop and then they do it again when they're hungry again so yeah and when you do that it makes life a lot simpler and much more enjoyable and then you have so much more time in your day where you're not thinking about preparing or eating food and you're not just obsessing with eating all the time you can just you can just go out and do things you know like I've been I've been working all day I haven't eaten yet I don't feel like eating I'll be fine you I'll have a you big steak tonight that will be great and that'll fuel me for another 24 hours and I won't have any any sort of um issue with that um which I which I really appreciate hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnival bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25% off total all right thanks guys I love that part of the diet not having to worry about okay it's breakfast I need to eat okay it's 11 o'l noon I need to eat lunch okay it's 5 o'clock oh I need to eat dinner you know I just eat when I'm hungry and if I'm not hungry I don't eat you know so I I love that about the diet I don't have to think about cuz like before when my kids were younger trying to meal plan my man if I could have just started this back when my kids were younger that would have saved so much time on you know meal planning and it it's it's stressful to meal plan and then try to prep and try to cook it it's very stressful and you feel like that's all you spend your time doing is just you know making breakfast in the morning and then you got to do lunch and then you got to make dinner it's like you're only getting a couple hours of free time during the day and then the rest of time you're spending prepping and cooking yeah so with this you just okay MH for me it's I'm good with a cold burger or beef dog or some cheese or pork rinds I'm good you know and but for other people they got to spend you know I I watch other people and I'm like I'm so glad I don't have to do that anymore I'm I'm satisfied and I haven't had a vegetable since 2022 you know so it's been almost two years since I've had a vegetable my numbers are great I'm very health minus my fall a I'm act besides the MS you know fighting the damage from the MS my vitamins my levels are great I'm very healthy I haven't been sick since starting the carnivore diet you know whereas before I was getting sick yeah so and you know I had in 2020 when Co hit I had just gotten over my blessed my son he just shares everything with me so anytime he would get sick I'd get sick and he got influenza right before everything right before Co hit and gave it to me and um I had just gotten that gotten over that and then Co hit and I think that's when because we were in the heart of my daughter did travel volleyball so we were you know traveling everywhere constantly going to tournaments my kids also competed in Taekwondo you know I was staying mobile I was struggling you know my husband would stay arm inarm with me and guide me because these were very packed venues but I was still mobile up until 2020 and then Co hit and that's you know everything came to a ho and I was at home stuck in a chair you know cuz I had just gotten over influenza and I was like in the very beginning I was scared to death of covid I was like I don't want to get this I don't want to go through what I just went through because for me it would take me a lot longer to get over these you know these illnesses it my family they my son I think got through it in less than a week and for me it takes like a month so it's like you know I stayed indoors I did exactly what we were supposed to do the first couple months and afterwards I'm like okay this is ridiculous you know and I just yeah that's a whole another topic the mask and but yeah in the very beginning and I think that's where you know my main problem is why my Mobility declined because I was sitting down all the time I wasn't moving around where I was before and so that's the one thing you know if you got the mobility use it definitely don't sit around that that and now I'm fighting to get my Mobility back you know I have almost 30 years of Ms damage done to me and so so I'm you know carnivore diet wasn't it stopped the MS but it didn't magically make me walk you know my family is looking like well you're not walking yet I'm like well I have that's like you know a house being on fire and you know you put out the fire well you still have to rebuild the house just because you put out the fire the house doesn't just magically rebuild itself I'm like my body has to heal I have a lot of damage so that's you know that was my mistake going into the carnivore diet thinking oh I'm going to be walking within six months no you know I'm still fighting and I'm kind of plateaued in my physical therapy because I'm battling through the muscle spasms right now which you know most people who are have MS can relate to where the muscles just get so tight it's it's like I can't you cannot battle once your muscles are so tight you can't battle through it no matter how strong you are so you know now I'm going to try dry needling and hopefully you know that'll release those muscles to where I can start building my strength up more to be able to you know start learning how to walk again and get you know my left leg going cuz my left my left side is my weak side and hopefully you know I haven't driven in probably six months now hopefully start driving again and start getting my you know living a normal life but it just takes so much time you know and that's I don't want people to think you know oh she's doing great you know doing the carnivore diet yeah I stopped the MS but I still have everything that Ms Left Behind yeah that I got to battle through I'm not just magically healed yeah so well I was just going to say I I think that's very important point to make is that I I really like your analogy with the house fire and you put out the fire but that doesn't regrow the house there's damage and you can you can rebuild you can repair but that takes time it's not it's not just bang it it's it's back it's normal and that that's really important for things like autoimmunity because what what a carnivore diet I think that carnivore diet is is hitting the underlying root cause of Auto autoimmunity what I think autoimmunity is is not autoimmunity it's not our body attacking itself because your body physically can't attack itself um I should probably do a video on this but the I you know I took postgraduate Immunology um before medical school and it the the concept of autoimmunity and molecular molecular mimicry was really really hard for me to swall it did not make sense to me because I studied Immunology at postgraduate level and when your immune cells are maturing and your bone maror and your thigh Miss they are exposed to every single antigen in your entire body every single possible molecule and combination molecules your body is capable of making your body you're you Expos to these immune cells that make these antibodies Etc and if they react even weakly with these they are killed so there's no mature immune cell that's you know probably maybe somebody has some sort of weird issue where they they're making they're they that security system and maturation process has been broken down a bit possible but there's no direct evidence of that um that that your body is not capable of making antibodies that attack itself it's not possible and so you have molecular mimicry you have to attack this over here and this antibody is similar enough to your body over here that you get a cross reaction no because if you if you were capable of making uh anything that weakly attached to your own body it would have done that without the virus vector or other sort of molecular mimicry because it was capable of making an antibody that was able to attack this in this way that crossreact that means it's capable of making an antibody that would have reacted to that in the first place so that can't happen and so that's not what's happening I don't think I think what's happening is like Celiac we know Celiac is gluten mediated autoimmunity so you have gluten which is a lectin lectins are proteins with carbohydrate substructure that bind to the different antigens and proteins and molecules on the surface of our cells and damage them and damage the cells and cause leaky gut cause different sorts of things to get into your body that would normally never be there but also cause an immune re response and an auto what we call an autoimmune response with people that have Celiac because now you're making antibodies to attack that gluten that is attacking your body so the lectin the gluten attacks your parasites the intestinal cells and then you make antibodies that attack them but because they're on your cell cells the cells get damaged and so you get flatten you get damaged to the micro and the V you get flattening of these structures and you can't absorb food properly and um things that aren't supposed to be getting in are and things that are supposed to be getting in aren't and so this really damages people and they get very sick but then you stop eating gluten what happens that damage goes away and it heals and repairs but you still have those antibodies so why aren't they attacking your body anymore you have the anti bodies but they're not attacking because they're not there's no gluten there to attack because they're attacking the lectin the gluten that are on your cells and so I think that's what's going on with every other autoimmune issue as well I don't think they're autoimmune issues I think it's perfectly normal immune response and you get these lectins or glyphosate or other sorts of of compounds that get into your body start attacking your body your structures and your nervous system and your immune system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do which is defend you attack these because they're attacking and so stopping eating these things you stop these lectins you get out the glyphosate you get all these and that's why I think ruminant meat is so good you get all these antigens out of there um you know even when they're being fed things are not supposed to because they'll ferment it first and break those down they can ferment and break down glyphosate so they don't actually get a bunch of glyphosate in their system where chickens pigs things like that can um um and so you're not getting that in in your body and so all of a sudden you're you're cutting out the root cause which is that these chemicals whatever they are are attacking your body and your body is making an immune response towards them and your body is getting hit in the crossfire your cells your nervous system your thyroid things like that are getting hit in the crossfire so you just stop eating those things now there's nothing for them to attack even though those antibodies are circulating they have nothing to attack just like in Celiac and that's what I think is happening but there is already damage done and we have to recognize that and so while you're stopping the disease the disease is the ability for your body to be damaged so you're stopping that disease process but there's already damage from the you get burned in that fire right okay well you can take the fire away you can get somebody out of the fire they still have burn damaged skin and some of that's going to heal and but there's going to leave scars and you're going to have problems with that you know that's that's what happen happens so you you you removed the fire there's no further damage there's no more burning happening but you there's still damage and you need to recover from that and so you know there is such a thing as damage done and it takes a long time especially with the nervous system because the nervous system takes months and months and months if not years to to heal bully and so putting all these things in place are you know are very important getting the right amount of B12 and folate and and vitamin D and and all these the Omega-3s like DHA and EPA that don't exist in Plants the Omega-3s and plants are not what you need for your nervous system and they don't turn into what you need for your nervous system and so uh it's very important to get that and then remove all those things that are causing the damage in the first place and allowing your body a chance to heal so I mean the simple fact that you have not had a flare up except for when you went off plan speak volumes you know you really haven't had sounds of it you haven't had a flare up in two years except for that one time and it's it's cause and effect at that point you stopped eating didn't have a flare up you started eating them again you got a flare up you stopped again went away again it's pretty damn clear and um you know having had that experience you know for a cold Frozen fact that this is a cause and effect relationship and so now you're just like absolutely not I'm never going to touch that again which is U you know which is very good um unfortunately I have to I have to run cuz I have another appointment um I'm very sorry going really enjoy this conversation but I did want to ask you just one thing real quick have you had a subsequent MRI um recently since you've been doing carnivore with your neurologist which is great that that your neurologist is you know is is at least keeping somewhat of an open mind saying like oh okay look there there might be something to this even if he's not fully on board yet at least is he's not saying oh this is crazy you're going to kill yourself he's recognizing that hey look I think you actually have put this intermission and maybe that's something to think about but have you had a sub MRI to see um where you are now with your lesions not yet and if I would have thought about it I before I started carnivore I never thought I'd get this far with it or have these results I should have had an MRI you know I haven't had an MRI in years my doctor's never really pushed for it so yeah I definitely want to get an MRI soon to find out you know when I get through this healing process I guess you say you know I'm curious to see you know compare what the lesions are like on My Brain and Spine and see if there's you know if some have cleared up but one thing I do want to add one thing that through my research that I found out about cholesterol I know you're big Advocate on cholesterol you know cholesterol protects the myin correct yeah well it's made out of it yeah yeah so why you know I sat there and ate lame Meats salads and fruits I wasn't getting cholesterol so you know it's like why you know I even asked you know the doctor I said why are we not educate cherol our brains are made up of what 70% cholesterol that it's a large report well your brain is is 60 to 70% uh fat lipids and cholesterol yeah and and a major part of that is is going to be cholesterol and especially your white matter the milin is is predominantly cholesterol and saturated fat yeah and I asked him I said why are we not educating you know I have been with him for 21 years I was diagnosed 21 years ago why one time did you not mention hey up your cholesterol no we're suppressing the cholesterol you know and I'm like no wonder I have so much damage you know my it's like I had nothing protecting the myin yeah so yeah now my cholesterol levels are up and now I know the actual truth about cholesterol and it's like you know why why are you not educating people well his response is there's not enough studies like oh okay like but could yeah well there are there are plenty of studies that show if you disrupt the normal cholesterol metabolism of the brain you get very serious neurological compromise as a result and neurological uh deficiencies and deficits and developmental issues as well and uh but that's all we've been trying to do for the last 50 years is disrupt the normal cholesterol metabolism of the brain and the body because every cell makes cholesterol because they have to have it it's so vitally important and your brain makes it uh just like every other cell in your body and so it's vitally important and and yet we are doing everything we can to destroy our body's ability to make and utilize cholesterol which is um only going to lead to disaster and we have we have plenty of studies showing that and uh you know so you can you can point that out and uh just look just go on PubMed or Google Scholar and look up um you know cholesterol metabolism brain and um right you'll find tons and tons and tons of paper on papers on that and it's very important very very important especially development yeah absolutely well I know I've caught a lot of grief from that and it's like know you need the cholesterol trust me on this one yeah yeah well Penny thank you so much for that it absolutely wonderful uh spending this time with you thank you so much for for taking the time out I know this is the the first interview you've done and we're a bit nervous but I think you did great and I think that everyone will have really benefited from hearing your story and really appreciate you taking the time and stepping out of your comfort zone to to share your story with us thank you for that well thanks for having me and letting me share my story you're very welcome and thank you everybody for watching hopefully that has helped uh people and put their mind at ease if they're thinking about starting a chonor diet especially for autoimmune issue like Ms and if you know anybody who suffers with Ms which is a very very serious disease please do send this on to them as well as my other videos on Ms U because this is something that uh will hopefully change in the next few years we're getting ready to publish a case series on people like Penny who have improved not only their symptoms of MS on a a carnivore diet but actually shown um reduction in their lesions on MRI which is here to before unheard of in the literature as far as I know so that's something that is very powerful and uh it it is hopefully will give somebody hope who maybe doesn't have as much as they need it so if if you know someone who falls into that that category please do share this with them thank you all very much and we see you next time hey guys thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say if you like it then please like And subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast and if you're on YouTube then please hit that little bell and subscribe and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out which should be every week if not more and if you could share this with your friends that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing thanks again guys