Let the Troops Eat Meat!

welcome to the plant free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chafee where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hey everyone it's Dr Anthony chafee here again with the plant free MD podcast today I have a very special guest who's the founder and creator of the carnivore bar Philip Meese who is kind enough to join me today to talk about uh carnivores bar as you guys know is my main sponsor and to talk about everything carnivore as well Philip thank you very much for coming on yeah thanks for having me yeah not a problem so um can you tell us a bit about yourself and and what made you want to start the carnivore bar in the first place so I was uh I could start the story in many different places a sick kid um but I got better but then I deployed I went to Afghanistan as a combat medic I struggled to find healthy food I was into CrossFit doing paleo um just trying to out work out a uh terrible diet and no sleep and I got wrecked so um I was on a broad spectrum antibiotic got dysbiosis and uh spent the next seven eight years Health hacking my way to frustration till I uh found Jordan Peterson tried to clean my room and get my life together and then he started talking about this crazy carnivore diet and Michaela and I was like well heck I have nothing to lose so I'll try that too I tried it and uh lost 40 pounds changed my life um just revolutionized um everything about like what I was doing and where I was going and what I wanted to do with my life and so I realized that all that frustration that I had was deployed in Afghanistan was you know coming to this head it's like well maybe the most useful and meaningful thing I can do is solve this uh healthy food on the battlefield thing yeah created the carnivore bar oh very good yeah I have um I have some friends of mine that that um you know in like Special Forces and things like that and uh you know I've talked to them about this and you know they've mostly gone on Carnivore and like they will actually have to bring their own food sometimes because they won't have it available so like I have a buddy of mine his wife will send him a Yeti cooler full of like frozen rib eyes like out that's wherever he's going so he just has this big cooler full of full of steaks that he can keep eating on because yeah you don't necessarily have the same access to food um as you would as you would otherwise well they send you MREs too so I mean the it's a compounding problem you're eating preservative Laden food um that's not ideal and uh even in the own the Army's um ARs they're regulations they have like these memorandums that explain how tools are to be used it describes never being on the MREs for more than 21 days but we have soldiers that are eating MREs for 15 months and so the preservatives don't uh they don't stop working just because you put them inside your body yeah you know they're your microbiome has to help you absorb whatever food you're eating and if you're in a war-torn country endemic with malaria you're probably not a prophylactic for you know they don't want the troops to get sick so if they put you on abroad but uh broad spectrum antibiotic like doxycycline um there are several others but that's just one it malaria will kill you dead and if it passes through a body of troops that it can kill you know against malaria so it's not a not serious threat but the intervention that the Army Medics medicine decided um in combination with MREs uh just wipes you out it's a complete recipe for dysbiosis and so there are two-fold challenges there's the terrain element of your digestive tract just being wrecked and then there's also like well how do you even get healthy food out there you know if you have Yeti cooler full of rib eyes it's like Special Forces have special privileges they have access to a grill they have access to their own workout equipment like you know they provided a little bit of Freedom um lacks standards for grooming they they integrate with the populations that they're trying to you know work with to accomplish our goals and our missions so there on the the tip of the spear you know but the average Soldier the the body of troops that deploy you may be on a fob where there's a a mess hall and state-of-the-art equipment and and Cooks doing their utmost to provide Healthy nutrition you know we as carnivores May disagree about their result but it's it's Valiant and it's effortful and I appreciate those soldiers and those efforts but when it comes to the Shelf stable component I think they have absolutely failed I don't think that that is adequate in any shapewear form it's not nutritionally complete and the nutrition that is claimed in it is claimed in it by by Merit of bureaucratic um you know formulas like they have a spreadsheet of non-bio available vitamins that they've just shoved in there and mixed up into the peanut butter and like good luck pooping for the next week like you're just set up for this miserable nutritional experience if you can even call it that and I think that there was a real need to create something that would sustain people in those kind of environments hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10 off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25 off total all right thanks guys yeah and then that's the thing too I mean this is this is really a throwback to what armies have used literally for thousands of years pemmican were the iron rations that that troops would use quite often I mean that you know even even the British used pemmican fighting the Americans in the Revolutionary War they found this is how we know that Pema can last such a long time is because we actually found caches of the you know Imperial Army of of their pemmican 50 years after the Revolutionary War it was still good you know so this stuff lasts a long time and that's why they use it as iron rations yeah there's a history of of pemmic and especially in the British or Commonwealth uh forces because of the Hudson Bay Company and the like they have these this huge fur trade in the 1600s um and they even had a pemmican war uh fighting over the right to hunt uh bison so they fought over the hunting grounds to the Bison because it became a commodity if it hadn't become a commodity um we probably would never know about it you know but descendants of uh French Traders and Native Americans um they turned it into this commodity product sold it to fur traders who were on the go burning thousands of calories a day like out in the brush trying to get as many pelts as humanly possible to ship them back over to Great Britain so they don't have time to plant crops or harvest or even hunt or field trip like they are they are moving with a purpose in some of the most harsh terrains up in the Northeast uh Great Lakes area and so they are you know pedal to the metal you know maybe even like five thousand six thousand calories wouldn't be that much if you're trying to forge a trail and continually expand deeper and deeper into the woods because that's where the Beavers still are any place that's been explored is is no good all the beaver are gone all the pelts are harvested you have to go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and it's energy demanding like you just can't imagine and so the British they learned it became a field ration because they were in the business of winning yeah yeah and obviously you know the Native Americans were using this since time immemorial really and and uh likely the Mammoth Hunters of you know far gone past were also making uh these sorts of things like either pemmican or drawing in some way to preserve it and yeah you'd wonder if like the the fur Trappers they wouldn't just eat the meat of the animals that they trapped but you know I suppose that you you don't always know when that's coming in and it doesn't last that long either and you never know when they've been caught so if you're using snares they may not be fresh so you know insects have gotten it it's not been you know you didn't take it down you've trapped it and so you know it could be a few days and then there's a question of um you know the the macros whether or not it's fatty enough I've heard Beaver is actually pretty fattening so like Beaver porcupine uh Badger does have in a fat Mass but that's like a whole nother problem it's like if you were planning on hunting you know deer is probably not going to cut it you need something bigger like a bison or Caribou elk um and you know we've kind of decimated those herds and and many continents around the world so it's few and far from the screen where you're even going to find big enough game with enough biomass with enough fat mask like you're saying Mammoth is how we started yeah it's like well if we grew up on if we grew these brains on Mammoth it's like how do we replicate that fat Mass it's like well it may not be balanced the carcass may not be balanced compared to what uh or ancestrally we would have eaten so we have to do extra work in cultivating and thinking ahead and pemmican is one of those ways where you can kind of um you know fill in the gaps when I go on uh on holidays holidays are coming up it's like you might mom might make you a sirloin cooked in butter but it's like maybe three or four grams of butter on the leanest sirloin you've ever seen that's overcooked all the way well done and it's like thanks because this year they didn't use they they remembered not to use pepper but like still like energy wise man you're hurting because you just don't have anything yeah yeah that is a problem too A lot of people when they when they say oh they don't have any energy or anything like that it's often they're not eating enough fat we're just not eating enough in general but most people because they're eating so much more fat than they've ever eaten in their life they think well I must be eating enough that that can't be the problem but it often is because you you tend to need a lot of fat yeah and it's not only like energy signaling it's just like you want your system to feel like you've had enough you want your leptin you want your hormones you want all of those markers to say okay we're good you know you don't want to be in this continuously stressed kind of like hungry all the time that's going to set you up for failure a lot of new carnivores you know they suffer from cravings and it's like you need those chemical signals to like okay good we're good we have what we need and if you don't get that you know eating eating too much protein um to bring it back to the frontier can lead to Rabbit starvation so protein poisoning it's essentially you're eating too lean an animal uh over and over and over again rabbits um you know they have almost no body fat on them at all so you can hunt and eat meat all day and still perish because it doesn't have enough fat and that's one of the the scary things about just the ecological things that we've done to the world where we haven't maintained wild uh large animals we've just turned it all into parking lots and suburbs and you know or then we've turned it into monoculture crops that are just kind of depleting the top soil it's like we really need to think about this differently it's not so simple you know if you're thinking about things ecologically and what human beings need to not only to survive in in the weakest sense but actually to thrive that's a different equation yeah it is and that's that's sort of is very topical now because there was this big push here you got your your your shirt eat beef not bugs and that's the thing we're getting pushed into into eating plant-based fake meat or you know bug Burgers things like that and you know I mean you know at least bug is an animal you know and I don't know the fat content but you know at least it's at least it's you know has is going to have sort of animal proteins and fats and things like that in it as well but it's certainly it's no it's no mistake by any stretch of the imagination as far as nutrient content uh or flavor I'm sure um but you know so what what would be your sort of um take on that you know we're being told that that in order to save the world and to save Humanity that we need to start eating bugs and plant-based meat it was beef really all that bad uh from it for for the planet no I I think that um beef is our One and Only Hope to survive in the next couple thousand years so I think uh topsoil is by far our least renewing natural resource it takes about a thousand years to create 11 centimeters um and we're depleting it and wasting it on corn and then we're burning that so the the problem with saying fat is fat or protein is protein um and then ignoring chemistry and pretending like chemistry and biology don't exist um is a huge huge huge problem it's kind of like saying well oil is mostly carbon and diamonds are carbon so I'm just going to take uh diamonds and put them in a gas tank and then turn the ignition and see what happens it's like it's that foolish it's like you cannot be so scientifically illiterate about this chemistry like the amino acids that make up human beings are not found in bugs like some of them are but not at the right ratios and it has almost no carnitine L-Carnitine is really really critical for human beings in human health especially if you are uh strict carnivore because if you're strict carnivore you know your energy source is fat so you have to have a fat there's no uh saturated like palmitic fat palmatic acid and steric acid are the two really really important fatty acids that are found uh basically in ruminant fat that's where we you would have found it ancestrally you know so there are some tropical uh plants like cacao has pretty high steric acid but obviously that is a very small sliver especially during the Ice Age where we you know grew up evolutionarily where you would have had access to it and it it needs a lot of work whereas ruminants are basically ubiquitous uh especially where uh human beings flourished and so it's this equation of like what does a human being optimally need so for my question as a combat medic it's like MRE wasn't it okay well what is it and so we were thinking meet MRE but ah Shucks it doesn't have like the antioxidants the the fruits and the veggies the green leafy vegetables like what am I going to do about those things and so I kind of just LED on the Shelf did my health hacking suffered and spent tons of money I didn't have on health hacking gadgets and gizmos and supplements that didn't help me at all so I was spinning my wheels uh doing green smoothies I'd say with the fiber without the fiber maybe it's the fiber Health juice you know maybe it's you know I need uh more probiotics I'll ferment well maybe I'll I'll take uh you know this powder of green vegetables that's mixed up that has more diversity it's like I looked at the actual chemistry and there was almost none of it was bioavailable hmm and I'm just like what like this complete Paradigm is just shattering it's like this is not bioavailable there's you know spinach has things it's a good an iron has an iron it's like okay well but it actually competes and actually absorbs iron and the iron that you eat that's in the spinach even takes more iron from you because it's not he mine so it can it can Leach iron the reason it has iron content is because it's leaching iron into it from the soil and from you and so it can actually make you more anemic if you overdo it on spinach and many grains are similar with they they have that phytic acid and they're pulling minerals from the soil and from the air like they are trying to build their structures and they don't stop just because you put it inside you again you know everything is trying to stay alive and uh you know animals they run they fight it's a work to get the animal the plants they use chemistry and our chemistry like illiteracy it puts us at a huge disadvantage there because you know bugs and these fake meats and these lab-grown meats there's no reason we couldn't make lab-grown Meats it's just going to take a thousand years because in order to do it right you're going to have to analyze every single amino acid in every format it's going to cost you know 500 trillion dollars and then you're going to make a square this big or you could let cows eat grass hmm and or you can spend a thousand years doing this r d project to make lab-grown meat effective the thing is is they're going to spend a couple million dollars and try to ramrod something that's two percent of what the human body needs that's not bioavailable just like they did with the MREs and so it no to your to your half-assed science like work it's like you either do the chemistry you spend uh all the money in the world seven times over and you do the science right or you accept in humility that the natural process is more advanced than our science really has the capacity to offer yeah and if you understand that then it's like well you know if we're going to have our you know scientific literate ecological discussions then we need to approach this with a little more humility because these biological processes are are not for the faint of heart you know it's like the F-22 Raptor joints Strike Force fighter is a rock compared to the human body you know it is nothing like as far as the the complexity of a single cell in the mitochondria it's like no we we're only like tapping the surface of that and so when the mitochondria you know pumps up 90 to 155 ATP when you put fat in it and it bumps out 36 when you put carbohydrate in it's like you know you look at the cellular biology and we're just kind of amazed at how efficient it is it's like wow it can it can use garbage and will still work it's like but it's doing so much better on ketones on fatty acids on this beta you know beta oxidation is like you know maybe we just need to step back and say well this is what is working for the cellular biology it's like maybe we should go with that yeah I think that's the thing you know it's a it's a matter of being so sharp you're so smart yeah so sharp you'll cut yourself you know and it's like oh we're so clever we're going to figure out all these sorts of things and you end up just hurting yourself because you're being too clever by half but not actually uh recognizing what is actually happening here that the system is very complex and like you say you know eventually we might be able to figure it out in a way that we can we can replicate this from other sources but it's it's not going to happen anytime soon it's going to cost a lot of money it's going to take a long time and right now like you say we have a pretty poor product you know this this fake meat stuff it's just it looks like a chemistry experiment the ingredients that are in there most of those are bad for you and not all of the the so-called nutrients are either bioavailable or appropriate so it's not it's certainly not something that we have been able to accomplish yet and when the further you get away from the natural workings of the world I think the more trouble you're going to get into because you know you can deny reality all you want but reality will win every time and you know it's just it's just going to catch up because it's like that that is the reality and um yeah I was thinking too like you were saying about topsoil top Shoals is a is a major major resource that is very limited and when we're tilling the ground we're uh you know churning up the ground to be able to plant seeds that makes it loose and available for the wind to blow it off for the rain to wash it away and so we are actually losing 27.5 billion tons of topsoil every year that's a a area the size of Kentucky every single year of topsoil that's a limited resource and like you say it takes a thousand years to get you know uh you know an inch or so of um topsoil and we're less than an inch and that so that is a very limited resource when we came to America first uh Colonial uh period and started moving out west the topsoil was something insane it was like something like seven or eight feet deep and so you could just just grow just crop after crop after crop without any problem because the soil was so rich and that's because of all the big massive ruminant animals that were moving through the Great Plains and you know eating the the grasses the grasses were tall they were like nine feet tall uh there's stories of the Explorers saying that they could tie uh grass in knots over their horse's heads so you know just thank God there were no Tigers around back then you know so just going through the tall grass that's the thing the absence of um you know the industrialized civilization um where we're doing all these cereal grains um in kind of a strip mining way allowed you know basically North America to rest and accumulate all that biomass it's like that's the natural um that's the natural way that things are supposed to to be and even if you ate vegetables or you ate fruit like even from the 60s you know it's like 500 percent more vitamins you know it's a not bioavailable form but if it's 500 more it's like well maybe you're actually getting something from these fruits and vegetables but today is fruits and vegetables are so depleted in that you're getting you're getting the the punch of the carbs you know you're getting the oxidative stress but you're not getting any any kind of compensatory uh nutrition at all and so it's just water and sugar and color color water sugar it's like well good profit margins on that but it's not something that is going to benefit you or help your performance and so that's kind of that's kind of the rub with um performance-based nutrition is where I think we overlap a lot of our interests is you know I kind of denigrated uh you know American um Battlefield nutrition but I didn't really kind of denote where it went wrong it kind of went wrong and so Keys the K ration so that was his pet project you know the military's always been used as a Proving Ground an experiment for diets and uh other things um not gonna say that but uh you know we're always the guinea pigs of whatever um great new idea uh turns up so when it comes to food they actually did a head-to-head test with k-rations and they did pemmican and they they didn't transition them to keto diet at all they doubled the fat of the pemmican so it's it's pemmicans very fatty it's 80 of your calories from fat but they they added even more they made it extra fatty and then took all salt out so they did a two-week test and basically guaranteed to give these people an electrolyte imbalance um and basically rinse them through because they couldn't handle that much fat all of a sudden so then they had them go do hard labor and so Ansel key is just uh just absolutely assassinated pemmican because he knew it was better is my suspicion um but he knew it was the obstacle because it had this great Legend it had you know the British Commonwealth forces were using it um and so he had to first take that down Europe after the World War II has been decimated the European scientific Community is is in shambles there's no one to call us on our BS and so Ansel Keys takes that opportunity assassinates the legend of him again puts forth the k-ration with uh candy and cigarettes in it and basically starts us on this train of nostalgia-based nutrition which is effectively taking jelly donuts and smearing it on your rifle you know to make it remember home it's like no This Is War you don't need Nostalgia you need cleaning lubricant and protectoring for a human body you are a weapons platform you need amino acids you need if those amino acids from red meat and you need a fuel source preferably fatty acids so that you has sustained energy so that you're awake and focused for the type of work that we need you to do and so it's that crazy analogy of the jelly donuts and rifles that like we just don't think about what what it is the function we're we're setting our soldiers our troops up to do we're not trying to make them homesick we're trying to keep them alive what are we doing here because is there anything that guy did that wasn't just complete and utter rubbish like I I just can't stand that guy you know like you know people talk about like um you know well yes you know he was bought and paid for by the sugar companies yes he did a lot of fraudulent um you know research and published fraudulent data but you know think of all the good things he did I mean that's like saying you know think of all the you know what about all the good things Hitler did you know he really liked dogs you know he was a vegetarian too and so you know it was um you know if it did not go well for Kanye yeah and so you know I mean that's the thing you know with um you know with Ansel Keys is it like everything that guy's ever done is suspect to me I can't I can't trust a single thing that he's done whether or not he was ever a decent scientist um you know which generally you would have to be to get into the position that he was to sell his influence but you cannot trust anything that's ever come out of that guy because he's utterly corrupt and he's he's only so self-serving that that anything that God has ever touched you have to be suspicious of and I guess this is another thing you know designing this study in order to fulfill a certain result you know that that is the antithesis of a scientific uh mind and experiment what's it's the problem with it's it's trying to make a profit versus trying to save lives so like my business with the carnivore bar is about trying to save lives and you know I basically had to turn up the line I had a cost because it for me as a carnivore who needs the product to live it didn't matter like it doesn't matter if I'm selling at a loss it doesn't matter if the r d cost just kind of spiral out of control it I get to be alive at the end of it you know I was doing 12 hour shifts in the ER and I was like uh um there's nothing for me to eat here and I'm too tired to meal prep every day I'm sure you have similar experiences it's like well what do you what do you mean that isn't like jerky it isn't too lean and so for me like wise just started spending every weekend I had making my own pem again and um you know because I needed it to work and this this Insidious like to kind of bring it back to to Ansel key is the Insidious like k-ration as a means uh to make money um everything about food manufacturing is about lowering the quality of the ingredients like say you were making something completely unrelated to meat like an oatmeal cookie if you'd make the best so you know cookie you could with the best ingredients you could then you take it to a food scientist and they would show you how you could spend panties on the dollar getting the crappiest ingredients to taste sort of like that cookie and then you'd have a profit margin and then you could Mass produce it you would go through a co-packer they would do all the work for you you'd never even see the oatmeal cookie that you invented they'd put it in cellophane and off the door it Go and you're a millionaire it's like that's food everything is preservative and chemical and the lowest possible and quality ingredient they can get away with so if you start with panicking with something like the highest grass-fed grass-finished beef that you can do like you were just absolutely destroying profit margin you're an anti-profit anti-money because there's money and then there's like infinite value and like if you have something that can save someone's life I would argue you know it's like uh the price of a tourniquet well if you if you need a tourniquet it's worth everything if you don't need a tourniquet it's well you know I don't know I'll pick a number when I don't need it but when you need it you need it and so the problem with food is that redesigning how we make food to make it you know coherent and consistent with science and consistent with the ecology that's going to lead to a future with us on this planet you know it's gonna take decades and so it's going to need an investment from people who believe that meat is important and they don't want to eat bugs they're going to have to take actions in the real world to prevent this this horrible Fork to keep happening because my prices have just gone way up and I think right now we're in this false calm because the droughts over here in the states they everyone liquidated their herd so they didn't get full weight well because they were losing weight they were losing weight on the hoof so they slaughtered them so beef is okay right now herd size have been decimated and they were decimated before in 2020 when they called them because they were worried so we're calling chicken we're calling all kinds of animal agriculture Moving Straight towards this and it's like well this is a great time you know not just to buy carnivore bar it's not to be a Shameless self plug but go meet your Rancher go learn how to make pemmican for yourself like take responsibility to maintain your individual sovereignty because if you don't have meat if you don't have your health any everything else really doesn't really matter yeah yeah you ask anyone who's who's sick or dying something like that that's that's always what your health is more valuable than anything and a lot of people when they're getting older getting closer to passing away they always say things like that I wish I took care of myself when I wish I spent time with my family more the the things that really matter all of a sudden come come to Bear you know I wish I didn't do these things uh that that made me unhealthy I wish I would have you know done these things better I wish I would have spent more time with my my kids and my wife and things like that and even in life human life is and it's well good food is what keeps them alive that's it we should invest in that yeah well definitely and that's one that's why you know I've had I've had a lot of people sort of approach me as as sponsoring the show and haven't really been interested um but you know I thought it would be a good idea here because like that's that's something that I think you know is important to have these products available because if that meets Commercial Success that will get other companies you know the the industrial companies saying like oh hey there's a market here and we're losing out this is something we should look into and it will force other people just to change the track and not produce you know the crappy you know oatmeal cookie but you know say hey well maybe we'll you know people actually you know give a crap about their health and this is what they're considering healthy you know let's let's give them a product I really really appreciate that I it's it means the world that Affiliates uh promote the product and and want the product um it's like we started as a Kickstarter and we wouldn't exist without dedicated carnivores that are truly believe um you know and not being without uh fatty meat and you know I kind of threw myself out there it's like well would you guys want this and everyone said yes go for it you know and uh I was completely you know in over my head but um I've just been figuring it out bit by bit because I think that it's beyond being famous it's beyond being rich it's beyond any of these things if I can if I can help just a few people like that'll make my my effort worth it and make it matter and so that's kind of the goal to to find some you know Jordan Peterson reference to find some kind of meaning in my life is to solve this problem um for a community that I believe in and that has greatly helped me like my dysphoria is just absolutely vanished I got labeled with the PTSD after the Army and I really didn't feel like that fit I didn't feel like that story fit I had dysbiosis as far as I was concerned and when I started eating a species appropriate diet everything got better for me and so man oh man I will not be without it again yeah there's um have you come across the book Brain energy by Dr Chris Palmer from Harvard yeah yeah I haven't heard it but I've heard of good things about it yeah so I'm reading it now and I'm gonna have him on on the show next week um yeah yeah it's very interesting and and he makes sort of the the the same assertion that underlying you know the common denominator underlying all psychiatric issues is uh metabolic issues at the level of the mitochondria just like most other diseases uh that we we're seeming to find more and more and more relationship between the mitochondria and and these diseases and so when your mitochondria obviously they're the work the PowerHouse of your cells they create ATP that is the you know the currency of your cells and that and that's what makes them run uh but they're very they're not just sitting there just pumping out ATP that just sort of floats around they actually move around your side of skeleton of the cell and they go to this area release a bunch of ATP go to this area release a bunch of ATP in that area and that promotes the actions of the machinery and that cellular structure at that area so they'll go here bang release a bunch of ATP that will release a bunch of neurotransmitters which will actually work on the mitochondria as well as working on other neurons and and and so there's this there's this massively complicated relationship and that when you disrupt the energy production capabilities of your mitochondria that that functionality goes down and it's so complex and it's so intricate you know it's a very very finely tuned uh Precision instrument that means the more Precision than anything that we've ever made um and so obviously it can go go off very easily and so if we if you do that then you're going to have serious issues you're going to get imbalances in your neurotransmitters the the function of your neurotransmitters are going to be different those are going to affect the function of your mitochondria as mitochondria as well so it's it's very intricate and very complex but he finds it all of these all of these different different psychiatric conditions like schizophrenia major depression anxiety OCD bipolar disease like these bipolar disorder they they're they all come down to the level of mitochondria not working right and you know yeah that's what I felt it was like horrible dysphoria no Focus like someone pulled my batteries I just could not get right yeah and how are you feeling now I mean I feel so I bit off a little bit more than I could chew with the business but um you know the first first year of carnivore was uh euphoric um I've felt better than I've ever felt um you know I was speaking of mitochondria I was studying uh Dr Michael Eads um he did a presentation about hyper lipid um where he talks about the N fadh2 over nadh ratio of fats long story short it was the saturated fats from animals that was sending the reactive oxygen species to make you uh selectively insulin resistant which is which was simultaneously creating more mitochondria and then it was also making your fat cells less fat selectively so then that sugar that that's supposed to be in your bloodstream goes and does other things like your obligate glucose metabolites like in your eyes or your erythrocytes your red blood cells they're obligate glucose so you know you know they have to use the glucose in your um in your bloodstream but if you are so uh insulin sensitive everywhere systemically it's having to fight for that so you have to keep going higher and higher and higher on the sugar to get it where it needs to go so that you can be alert and oriented but if you're keto adapted and you specifically not not every fat but these saturated animal fats it selects for that mitochondria function and that was what started getting my like my eyes wide and I was like oh my gosh like this might be this might be the thing to to actually help is make sure people have saturated animal fat um but it's a little hard to transport it's like well you don't want to have like a fatty steak and a Ziploc bag like purse meat kind of like I've seen it and I've done it um but you know there needs to be a better way and so I thought like if I did this Kickstarter maybe I could get that fat that seems to do all those things you were talking about with mood and um I don't know exactly what was wrong with my brain but it was it was not working so the Army docks pumped me full of methylphenidate which is basically a meth it's uh to get me to focus and my anxiety explodes and then I discontinue that because I can't handle the anxiety and I I can't work and it's like man my life is just is just spiraling and grinding into this terrible painful ball of dysfunction it's like I eat fatty meat stop eating green leafy vegetables everything is better yeah when I she it goes right back no going back for me yeah well it's what I've noticed too and you know when I even just get like a bit of greens or something like that or like spices seasonings on something if I'm in a restaurant I'm like is this going to cause a big deal and it does it actually affects me uh and in ways that I don't like you know some of it's quite mild you know maybe it's some spices just get my face gets a bit itchy or my nose gets stuffy or something minor like that but other things actually make me feel pretty rotten and and quite depressed sometimes especially the greens for some reasons those really get me and yeah I get foggy like it's hard for me to remember or stay focused on what I'm talking about like I just get really distracted and disoriented um brain fog um right I I can't do that and I can't do honey which is ironic because I sell honey bar and uh it messes me up so what made what made you want to do the honey bar in the first place so trying to be um responsible uh as a business owner um because I started as kind of a zealot you know I was a purist and I I didn't want to compromise and I wanted to tell everyone to eat the right Food Eat plain meat uh and I kind of realized that I want to put people first I want to meet them where they are and I want to move them you know where they're comfortable eating more meat kids sometimes have trouble like you know going all the way like so if I can if I can compromise a little bit and not be dogmatic um I can I can operate a business of which I can only eat two or three of the products um but you know I struggle with that for a long time it I don't want to be dogmatic but I do think those um elements are sub-optimal right it seems like some people can handle them more than others but um I do think they're sub-optimal and I and I and I listened to uh uh Dr Ken Berry to talk about fructose um not showing up on the A1c glycation um test A1C is the main test we do to see how glycolated your uh red blood cells are and um the test is designed specifically to um find metabolites of glucose glycation and so it's a complete like black hole how much damage fructose is doing and honey is high fructose so we're trying to keep the honey low and I'm trying to promote the zero carb bar with Affiliates like you who are strict and um thanks to your involvement in our brand um we have seen a precipitous shift towards grass salted away from honey so yeah yeah like um yeah so I saw that Ken Berry talk about that which I thought was really interesting I hadn't even really thought about that before but it you know makes sense um obviously you know Dr solidino likes fructose if it comes from honey or fruit which to me I don't think makes a lot of sense just because it's it's still the same chemical and it you know I mean you have to find something in fruit and honey that are then going to mitigate the effects of fructose somehow and explain that to me because I don't I don't see why it would act differently otherwise you know are they going to have other things that are there like vitamins and minerals and nutrients that are good for you in other ways sure but that doesn't mean that it changes the effect of the fructose in your body and so you know Dr saladino uh did then did a video saying that well actually it does show up on your hba1c shouldn't have any of these hidden dangers and he explained why he thought so and discussed some studies and then immediately after that you know Professor Bart K does like an hour-long rebuttal of that it's going like actually you know that's not a correct interpretation of the data here's what it actually says and so it's an interesting it's an interesting discussion anyway being had in this community um but I think at the end of the day you can just look go back to First principles humans evolve you know evolved and been eating it during the ice ages where there was no fruit and honey available period whatsoever so this isn't something that is required now we can we can discuss on how much harm it causes or if it maybe causes some sort of benefit or whatever but it certainly is not required you know there are there are people throughout the world entire civilizations right now that have never eaten fruit never eaten honey never taken in exogenous carbohydrate that did not exist in animal products and they are flourishing okay so it it doesn't it doesn't uh what am I trying to say it that means it is not required it doesn't uh have to it doesn't have to try it sorry it's a free link and and so I'm making a Survivor Bar and so if it doesn't add to your survival it's more jelly donut like on the rifle it's it's not CLP and so I totally resonate with that and I the goal of making pemmican and cooking it as lightly as possible and keeping it as immaculately clean as possible and dry as possible with no preservatives was for that exactly reason to do what is necessary and nothing else yeah however where people are in their like palatability issues is that they are so lost to all of the flavors and the Cornucopia of poison that they have to choose from that you know I say I have to make enough sales to get people to pay for the to pay for the unsalted carnivore bar which I is my favorite this one's mine this is my breakfast tomorrow and I just pull it off the counter but um that is that's my passion is to find exactly what you need nothing more nothing less and use ancestral Traditions hence the cave painting because that is the oldest art in the world that's a aurak it's extinct now yeah you know it's a nod to the mammoths which are also extinct now it's like well how do we eat a human diet with new flora and fauna and and foreign we have cultivated and skewed to such a horrible degree that is unrecognizable from its ancestral version and so that is a conundrum that I I don't know how to um enter into as a as a science as a citizen scientist as a biology Enthusiast and a business owner it's just like I'm trying to um trying to be open-minded as to the potential dangers of Honey or the potential like uh innocuousness of it because there is continuous debate but for me it doesn't work and ironically but for my wife it does yeah and so it's like I don't know babe I but she seems to do fine and so at least with the carnivore bar you're getting a huge dose of protein and you're getting fat that's satiating um and you're getting minimal carbs and you're getting it from a natural source um it's still probably inflammatory but at least those harms are mitigated and you're getting something satiating that will clue your body in to stop and so one of the reasons that I did Honey is because it improves shell stability it improves palatability and if you're eating these all day every day there is sometimes palate fatigue when you're eating a field ration you know so for those reasons I compromised maybe I've done a terrible sin but like well those are my reasons well the thing is too is that you know some people do want these things and and you you know at a certain point you have to you do have to sort of you know meet the market where it is and in the carnivore Community there are a lot of people that have been influenced by that thought that that honey is not only okay but but vital and necessary for our survival which I don't think is the you know oh my gosh smell test really because they're idle I mean plenty of people yeah well no no that that's actually what the argument is is that you have to have carbohydrates what's that oh no I mean if you want them if you want them like if you if you're I don't know if they have anything in them besides just fruit like maybe a few proteins maybe some immune modulating allergy but that's that's unproven that's just speculative no there's not there's nothing in there that you have to have absolutely not I mean there's how many how many people have gone throughout their entire life in existence you know in civilizations called generation after generation they've never touched honey never even seen honey or heard of it and or fruit for that matter and um no but that's the argument is that you cannot be in ketosis very long you have to eat carbohydrates which is uh very wrong you know we have a lot of actually like really good studies showing this and you don't need studies because you have entire civilizations that have never eaten a carbohydrate in their entire life that did not come from meat you know made some glycogen that's in in muscle or liver that's it and they've never had this stuff before and yet this argument is like no no you have to have carbohydrates or these you know because look at this little thing it's like a little insulin has to do with you know electrolyte reabsorption in your kidneys and so blah blah blah it is nonsensical because it it you know it doesn't matter what your study says because in real life that is not a thing you have in real life you have real civilizations living generationally for thousands and millions of years never having any carbohydrates and and thriving so you cannot say that you have to have carbohydrates I think this is just a justification for people you know uh for for their own decisions that they're making in their life and that's fine they get to make their own decisions but it is it is honestly absurd to me that you the assertion that you have to have carbohydrates in your diet interesting I didn't know the conversation had gone that far I guess I'm a little too busy to get that deep um but like there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate there are essential fatty acids an essential uh amino acids defined by biology because you can't make them so that's a clinical definition and there are no essential carbohydrates so it's crazy to me that they would go out on a limb like that and make a claim yeah it doesn't seem very uh chemically sound it's not no I mean well that's the thing too you do make carbohydrates you do have blood sugars you do have glycogen you do have insulin you know something like you could stop ever producing insulin you know that's not that's not the case and so and again like you say there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate I mean this is this is recognized by inter International Medical bodies as well um you know Ken Berry did a great little short on that talking about you know how many carbohydrates do you need throughout your life in order to not die and is it according to you know these different International bodies the answer is zero you know they're they're you don't need to eat these things you make them yourself and their entire civilizations living generationally that have never eaten carbohydrates and you know the the thing is that a lot of these people aren't realizing is that you know some people may have problems on a carnivore diet I don't know what they're doing wrong could be a lot of things could be you know eating copious amounts of liver and organs out of proportion with the animal you kill a buffalo you're going to have two years of skeletal muscle meat you're going to have one liver that goes along with that right so eating liver every single day doesn't make sense um and and a lot of people like the Inuit they don't eat any uh organs or liver or anything like that they feed them to their dogs yeah it's really perishable like you can't preserve liver yeah the lean meat and and the Tallow you have to be really Johnny on the spot to get at it fast to separate it and then get the moisture out of the towel by rendering or moisture out of the leaf fat by rendering it so like there's a process from the processor's point of view like there's a uh there's a logistics problem with trying to preserve the organs um it's very very hard to do if you're eating it that day fresh um great if you're doing anything else um it's going to be bad day too yeah so I don't know if you've ever had um liver that you try to thaw you cut too big a piece of it off and then you put it in your refrigerator and like when it's semi Frozen that first bite it's like oh okay this is nice it's like a multivitamin from an animal that's pretty safe day two you let it go it's just barely finished thawing and it's already Brown it's like uh you know ancient people didn't have a fridge they didn't have that Advantage yeah if they may have one or two bites if you could eat a whole liver but a cow like these big animals these ruminous its liver is this big yeah it's at least 50 to 60 pounds of liver a little bad tomorrow yeah how much are you gonna eat there well yeah and and uh you know maybe if you had like a whole bunch of hunters there or you had people maybe would eat it there on the spot um you know the Native Americans when they were when they would hunt they would field dress these animals they'd take down an elk or something like that you know they only because it's just one person or maybe a couple people packing this back they they had to pick and choose exactly what they wanted to pick so they would dress it they would they would take out the organs maybe they'd eat some of the harder you know part of the liver and things like that but they they wouldn't necessarily bring it back and they wouldn't bring back all the organs certainly and they would actually cut off the hindquarters and they would leave them there and they would put them up hang them up in a tree and this is a sacrifice to the you know the animal spirits and things like that and that may well be but what is what are the hindquarters they're the most lean part of that animal and so they have the least amount of fat so they're leaving the things that aren't as useful to them as well by Design or by by happenstance but that is what what's happening and so then they get the four quarters and the and the ribs and things like that and uh especially in those Northern climates I was um I mean this might be too much of a tangent for the here at the end but I was a missionary kid in Mongolia oh wow so I went in the in the fall of Soviet Union another reason why I'm Peterson fan um we went as Christian missionaries and they were high fat culture so the Mongols uh we went to a Mongolian Barbecue where they you know have like this bloodless killing where they they go into the the animal they make it an incision they go up and they they squeeze the aortic artery and the animal just falls asleep painlessly hmm and then like they'll have this whole thing where they they took kettles and they buried it with hot rocks and um and then long story short it ends with the ceremony of giving the guests of honor the tail and these are Asian fatty-tailed sheep not lamb mutton like sheep fully grown it's like so the tail is this big it's like 20 pounds minimum of fat it's like a heart-shaped fat and they hand that to my father in the 90s when we're afraid of saturated fat we're all eating margarine to to be to be safe and it's like that's an ancestral culture like and he took a bite to be polite and could barely swallow it because he's so uh you know programmed the other way and so he you know he takes a bike to be polite but it's like they had fermented milk they had fermented cheese Otto and they ate fat like by the by the you know handful I don't even know what it's called it's like this it's the size of someone's whole head of just pure fat no meat on it and so they ate fat like it was the actual nutrition of the animal yeah and so they ate the whole animal they they preserved everything and it was this experience it's just kind of in the back of my uh mind as a child um one of the healthiest epochs of My Life um that I did all this stuff went to be a soldier went to go get sick um came full circle heard about this uh you know this way of this Healing Way of eating and then I was like well how can I take that that healing fact that priority of these ancestral cultures and and take that into the battlefield into the world into an emergency situation and provide that life-saving nutrition uh anywhere that we might find ourselves yeah and that that's that's really cool that you had that experience that's awesome like I would love to go go see those guys and see how they live traditionally that's um that's another thing like they they do have a lot of from what I what I understand they they use a lot of uh dairy products and most of their eating just meat but they have like a lot of fermented uh milk products of the coarse milk generally and like a like a fermented mares milk uh alcohol you know yeah yeah and um dysentery for a Westerner in three days yeah yeah yeah and you know but at the same time you know you say like oh well that's a traditional uh you know humans and they're getting carbs from the milk so there you go people need carbs but in fact they're they're extremely lactose intolerant they don't have they don't get the any of these carbs they they use fermented milk products so the the bacteria is eaten up all the carbohydrates or even they who eat who use a lot of dairy products and and actually Mare's milk is is higher in lactose than cow's milk um they don't they don't actually get any of it because they're actually extremely lactose intolerant and so because they've never eaten this sorry so it's hot it's hot in a bowl oh yeah they serve it hot in a bowl and they they uh you know so they have a little tent and they uh again uh yurt as as people in the west are familiar with it um and they have a little stove and they're they're cooking this this fermented milk and so you know after it's been cooked after it's fermented it's like there's gonna be hardly any sugar because the the microbes are using the sugar to ferment to get the alcohol and the alcohol is like two to four percent like it's bare I mean more on the two than four like they were a little worried about us having it but as kids but like you know you could they were drinking it all day and and not being intoxicated so it was mostly purification not um not alcohol you know so it was one of those things where it was a fascinating experience and their hard cheese was Sun drying on the roof that it just every bit of their nutrition came from an animal source and they were healthy bad asses conquered the world they had so much pride in uh their heritage heritage in Genghis Khan um and they were mad as hell towards the Russians yeah you know who had dominated them and and kept them oppressed in this economic disaster of collectivism these Pride prideful carnivore individualists just kind of smothered by this oppressive communism um the mission actually went really well because we're selling this individualism yeah this Divine individual kind of concept with Christianity um you know that's not so much of a mission now with this meat story but it's interesting how this ideology is kind of Stack Up on um food and culture yeah and that that's yeah that I would I would be pretty pissed too if I was that you know that that was the um you know when when Genghis Khan obviously you know the Empire succeeded him obviously and continued to expand based on his principles and uh and and you know the society that he built and his sons and heirs continued on the on the the sort of the reign of terror you know that he had but you know they they they ruled like the largest contiguous Empire that's ever existed for hundreds of years and then there was some sort of cataclysm maybe like a Krakatoa or something like an asteroid or something like that hit you know launched up a bunch of it's It's supposed launched up a bunch of dust particulates that sort of drowned out the sun and a lot of the plant life died this is exactly what Bill Gates is proposing to do and actually experimenting on in Sweden to uh drown out the Sun so this is this is somehow going to help the health of the Earth by eliminating the energy source that all life on Earth is derived from I think he's he's one of those guys you know too sharp to cut yourself I just think he's an idiot at this point for doing that I mean he's just that's literally and that's like a bond villain level insane sort of thing to do um but you know that's that's sort of what happened back then you know all the major uh you know um all the major extinctions seem to happen from something like that or at least when that happens you get major extinctions and when the the particles came up it killed off a lot of the grasslands and a lot of the plants and horses are actually not as capable of extracting nutrients and energy from grass as well as cows are and so the people that are in now Russia that were sort of nomadic uh you know cow based they were able to actually take up the slack because all the horses were dying off and the and the Mongolians like that that they relied on the horses and they weren't able to get you know you look at the feces of of a cow versus a horse you know a horse it's like you can you know an animal can still eat that you know it still just looks like a ball of mushed up grass you know but a cow is just a just it's just a blob it's just liquid and that's because they actually get out all the fiber out of it but the cow doesn't do it nearly as efficiently and so they need a lot more of it in order to get the same amount of energy and so the people that were developing you know had cows and things like that they ended up taking over and that's that's where that big Empire of Russia came from was that was that was part of the former massive Mongolian Empire yeah so it's it's this four chamber stomach it's the rumen that we don't have uh really allows the cow to um uh really Dominate and that's why I think it's it's it's the hope of civilization but I think you're referring in in the Mongol Story the medieval cooling period And there's a secondary element to that and that is Kublai Khan the Khan with Khan is like the president or the emperor um he fell in love with Chinese culture and Chinese food and he diluted them from the Mongolian perspective he lost his Mongol Roots he lost his animal agriculture uh Heritage he want he fell in love with the civilization that they had just dominated not realizing that obviously they had the keys to success being the grandson of the great chingas he wanted to reinvent the wheel and and make it his own this Metropolitan you know all these ideas are great even though we just smashed them to dust it's like well no they're they're not great you're you're seven foot tall they're five foot tall you're monsters they on Horseback inventing the Stirrup Reco recurve bow like shooting through armor just maniacally strong and smart and uh tenacious they conquered the world and then they tried to emulate the people they defeated right yeah and then there's this ideological mistake especially from the mongolist perspective of you know their Traditions they would go to war with their herd so they would take a herd of ruminance with the horses so all the horses would come in all livestock behind them so they're they're ghosts and their sheep and cows some cows but like all of their livestock it they never left the meat behind and it walked with them slowly across continents and everyone you know they would burn their crops everyone else would starve to death they would Harvest one or two animals they would keep breeding and it's like they're just Unstoppable because of the food yeah and so it's one of those uh Tales of History it's like if we don't learn from it we're destined to repeat it and creating a solar minimum on purpose is only going to cause Mass starvation so exactly yeah I mean terrible idea yeah you know I mean the the base of the food chain you know comes from things that can that can absorb the energy from the sun plants right so and plants and algae and all the rest that that go through photosynthesis that is where the energy for Life comes from the very bottom of the food chain that's what every animal on earth then subsequently gets their energy from you limit that you will limit the viability of life on Earth and you and P and people animals and plants will die on Mass and and the microbiology like to sequester carbon in the ground where it belongs to to create nutrition for our food we need the methanotropes that are uniquely suited in cows they have that for Quad stomach they completely digest that carbon they do burp methane but it is part of a natural cycle that degrades unlike the methane that's releasing from ice or that we burn the methane from cows is from the thanotropes that fix nitrogen into the ground sequestering carbon and the methanotropes don't die they eat the peat moss they eat the the methane in the ground so like you need you need the cows to incubate the methanet tropes that will continue to degrade and eat methane which is like I forget what multiple worse than um carbon but like carbon nutrients all that stuff needs to go in the ground they also simultaneously fix nitrogen which helps the plants grow its natural fertilizer so not only you get the minerals but you also get the microbiology that allows for the renewing of the topsoil nutrients in our food and the uh diversity and the life potential of any ecosystem it needs to be grazed in order to be alive yeah that's that's the thing too you know people talk about animals being bad or cows being bad because they burp methane things like that first of all there were hundreds of millions of Buffalo throughout North America before we exterminated them all to cut off the food supply of the Native Americans and so there was a lot of these animals around doing exactly that and all throughout the rest of the world there were tons and tons and tons of these animals that have now been sort of displaced because of of human development and uh you know Agriculture and things like that have sort of displaced these wild animals so there used to be a lot more than there are now and the the the the production of methane that doesn't come from a cow that comes from the bacteria in in the cow's gut so it's not actually from the cow doing it no no vertebrate animal can break down fiber it's only these bacteria that can break them down and as a byproduct of that you get short chain fatty acids you get you know protein from the the bacteria dying off you also get methane and so that methane goes off but that methane will be produced regardless when when fiber is being just broken down like a tree falls down and bacteria get into that and start working it down it also releases methane so that same amount of methane is going to be released regardless it's going to be released whether it's coming uh in the rumen of a cow or on the floor of a forest that is just from the degradation of fiber and that is that is a recycling of these nutrients that then go into these methanocyte organisms that then fix nitrogen into into the soil so these are these are actually normal processes in nature and and again you know being so sharp you'll cut yourself trying to interrupt a natural very complex uh you know situation and um and system you're going to get unintended consequences law of unintended consequences you mess with a very complicated system something bad and unexpected is going to happen and you need to recognize yeah yeah it's uh hubistically it's it's just like you can't uh fall prey to the the um the vice of hubris like you you can mess with the environment you can think of better ways to do things if you go slow and with humility yeah and what they want to do is they want to rush it they want to turn it into an IPO they want to make a few billion dollars and and then you know stop a sticker on it and sell it it's like that's not um that's not careful science and if if we are not careful in several thousand years we won't exist we need to invest now in animal agriculture or we will create an ecological disaster because it's not how much cereal grain you can make to appease the natural carnivores that are on this planet a good way to look at it is like if we're carnivores if that's our optimal diet we're being appeased with kibble and so you have a planet swarming with 8 billion piranha and you're appeasing like 40 with kibble and and the affluent part can can kind of sort of get enough meat if they're lucky and now as we go into a recession everything is going to be harder and kibble is going to be too expensive and that 60 that's doing well is now going to be 20 percent and so now you don't have enough kibble and you don't have enough ammonium nitrate to to to make more kibble and so ecologically this is a disaster people will say like oh you can't feed everyone a car or Diet it's like well you know what we better get cracking then because we need to start now at making sure we can feed everyone carnivore because we are all as a species eating the same diet if this is a zoo you know one monkey doesn't eat a different diet than the other there's an optimal diet but somehow when it comes to human beings we let our biases get in the way of Science and doing the work and doing it inappropriately and it's like if we want to be science we need to start now at investing in animal agriculture yeah and that's yeah that's the thing people think well everyone's different everyone eats different things so how is that possible that doesn't exist in anywhere in nature there are no examples of two members of the same species that have different optimal diets you know Lions everywhere on Earth eat the same thing you know chimpanzees everywhere on Earth eat roughly the same things I mean depending on their areas maybe they have more access to bugs some other monkeys and chimpanzees but as far as the plants that they eat they eat the same things and we are eating plants that that first of all didn't exist 10 000 years ago and you know second of all have been have been bioengineered and we're using this massively wide range of them and no animal on earth does that so you can't tell me that that we are supposed to be eating all the plants that we are and of course we're not you know because that doesn't make any biological sense and we're getting sicker you know like the health problems of humanity are getting worse if we were getting healthier like oh well you know this is a natural diet we're getting healthier no big deal but we're not but we're getting much much much worse and so like we're eating out of season we're eating tropical fruits that that come you know thousands of miles away um it's none of the these Supply chains are very stable as we've just found out and uh you know we need to think about like what do we what do we want to give our our children our children children um a world to inherit it's like well hopefully it's it's a green one full of life um and they can they can live full happy healthy lives and it's like okay well if if we're gonna try to do that then we need to focus on a species appropriate diet and you know I like to be as open-minded as it possibly can as like I think I'm not sure where obligate carnivores like like cats which are like 95 maybe we're just carnivorous like 70 percent low bar we are so underfed protein and fat wise that it is hilarious like I mean if it weren't very very dark dark humor it's we are so far off of the 70 you know and that's throwing every caveat in every bone we could possibly give out of Charity to people who want to eat other things they should at least be animal based and way off that Mark yeah I think in America uh we're 70 plant-based at the moment we get 70 of our calories come from plants most of that from grain carbs and garbage like that and there was like seed oils and things like that because you're supposed to really limit the amount of saturated fat uh and obviously protein will get in there as well but most of that is coming from plants and I think that's that's the opposite at the very least you should be kidding yeah like you say more than 70 percent and yeah it always depends on your your definition of obligate carnivore or not I mean I think that we are opportunity to eat meat there's there's no doubt right on that and so you know you have there are things in meat that you have to have that you cannot get from plants there's nothing in plants that you have to have that you cannot get from meat and in fact there are things in plants that will detract from your health and and and block the absorption of nutrients and disrupt your own digestion and utilization of these nutrients so it can actually cause harm and so I think by that measure we really are obligate carnivores now does that mean that we can't survive on some plant material no we're actually very robust species and that's likely why we've been so so successful is because you know since the you know the megafauna went down we were able to sort of figure out other other ways of getting uh nutrition but it's cost us you know that that has cost us our health our average height has gone down significantly our average Health has gone down jaw size teeth development all these things have gone down brain development brain size and development have gone down so much smarter than us you know we have we have more technology we have more information accumulated over Generations they were smarter you know absolutely you know but we can we can get that back but it will take it'll actually take probably Generations there was a an interesting study um called um pottinger's cats that you can look up on YouTube it's an interesting video on it and it's like something that's sort of the 20s and 30s you know something like that this guy was looking at at um cats and they were sort of they wanted to do different experiments with tuberculosis and they found that um the cats that they were feeding just cooked meat from the the kitchen there they weren't very healthy and they were dying uh pretty easily after they do the surgery they're taking out the adrenal glands above the kidneys and they're saying that well the surgery is going fine there's nothing wrong with that but all these cats are dying and then they found that these other cats they didn't they didn't have the resources to cook meat for us they were just giving some raw meat that actually they were fine they didn't do it they didn't have any problems they surviving surgery no problem so he said okay or are is there different nutrient content in cooked meat versus uncooked meat uh that that they're missing out on something and they found that there was that the animals eating cooked meat were much less healthy and much less robust and have less bone mineral density the calcium levels were a little bit lower and the second generation was much lower it was only like instead of 14 uh calcium it was seven percent calcium and they were getting more fractures they were had lower libidos they just acted just a bit off and they were smaller and their brains were smaller and faces facial structures were not as well developed the third generation was even worse they were severely underdeveloped their brains were much smaller their bone mineral density is now three percent and so there's like spongy like foam rubber uh texture to the the bones and after that they were sterile they couldn't actually conceive or if they did they'd have still bursts so they couldn't even go past the third generation on actual just cooked meat right and so they try to say okay well let's reverse this let's just put them back on Raw me and the Romney ones were doing great the whole time and they put them back on raw meat they were eventually able to get back to the health and stature of the raw meat cat but it took four generations so there's all this epigenetic effect you're turning on and turning off different genes that have that have generational effects so we can live much better lives feeding ourselves optimally our kids will be even better their kids will be better than that their kids will be better than that and maybe we'll get back to our our evolutionary past of being nearly seven foot tall strong as hell and smart as anything and and that would be something pretty cool to see if I'm lucky enough to see that but hopefully you know my kids and and grandkids and their grand and their kids Etc will at least learn these lessons properly and be able to help themselves that's the dream I mean that's that's what it's all about it's about human life and flourishing and uh it's so disheartening to hear these like um these methusian like misanthropic kind of like uh just anti-human Sentiments of like Pro Earth but not humans and it's like how are they getting away with that kind of rhetoric it's um human flourishing anti-genocide should be a given and then the conversation should be well how best to optimize that you know and uh the fact that that's not the starting point means we're not having a rational debate here and so it's really up to the US and the community to Foster these ideas for the sake of what you just said like for food for the future of human flourish and Consciousness um you know we have to be using the right uh currencies and biologically that's meat yeah I think so too and and hopefully this will just you know get more and more out there I think the people that are figuring out carnivore now they're at an advantage but their kids are going to be at a massive Advantage because they're going to be some of the few people that have developed properly and they're going to be at a massive massive Advantage intellectually and physically and they're not going to have all the health issues and and other such problems that that a lot that can plague other you know Growing Kids and and young adults and hopefully won't have the same mental health issues that others do as well and they're going to be Head and Shoulders above above their peers and if they work hard and really take advantage of that they will be in very very good stead to be very successful and happy throughout their lives and um you know I I want to get this message out there I do want everyone to get healthy and especially their kids to be healthy and but I'm just conscious of the fact that I should probably start having kids now so that my kids have that Advantage you know and like and so that they yeah they're still in that with the generation of like most people or are not doing the right thing so they can just be you know at a at an advantage but but I do hope this gets around I do hope that everyone eventually sees the light to this and um and just helps themselves and their kids well I you know as as someone who really enjoys your channel like I think what you're doing getting the message out is really really important like it may not be your kids but like the community's kids like you are inspiring and being a voice to to this you know competent science and and this you know it's not a religious thing but it is good news that like for a lot of these conditions um you know this diet is helping I I heard you talk about like people are in your life like people are asking you questions does it help this does it help that does it help this it's like you know and every time you try you're being patient in your answer it's like well I think this is a species appropriate you know diet for humans so you know from my point of view like everything that is going wrong you know even your latest breakup like it will also help like eating poison is you know not eating poison is its own reward yeah you know it's whatever you're struggling with it's not a Panacea it won't cure everything you know it won't grow your leg back if you lose it but you know if you've lost your leg wouldn't it be great if you felt better and that your surgery is healed faster so you get fitted for your prosthesis and get back out there you know it's like in every circumstance it's not going to be a get rich quick it's not going to be all your problems are gone but you will be present you will be mentally awake you will be as strong as you could be eating a species appropriate diet and I think what you're doing spreading that message is is helping to save an entire generation oh well thank you and um I I hope it does I hope it does help people and it's nice to get the feedback from people like yourself and others you know I get a lot of messages about people saying I mean it's sort of hard to to take um to know how to take it when people say you know I've found your videos and it's like literally saved my life I was on the verge of suicide I had all these health issues and it's like I I don't think I can take the credit for that you know but I'm glad that that something in my videos has has inspired someone to make these changes in their life that has allowed them to become much more healthy and happy um it's very humbling seeing those sorts of things but it you know I get very very nervous sometimes because especially when I have a bigger platform I think myself like okay am I am I am I right am I leading people astray like that that's my worst fear and so that's why I continue to look into these things I continue to have conversations uh with with different people I continue to debate with with vegans and vegetarians that are on the other side of this and like okay what am I missing what have you got for me let's go and you know so far I really do think that everything's lining up that this is this is what we should be doing and this is our optimal way of eating and it's it's nice to get that feedback when people saying yes it actually has really helped me and helped change my life so it's um it's yeah it's very humbling you know seeing those sorts of messages but it's very good to see I think it's important and I think we needed another strict carnivore MD you know somebody who has the credentials and the experience both academically and athletically I think that's absolutely critical uh to promote the message and do it efficaciously so it's not enough um to to be able to decide a study but not to be able to go on on the field and prove it you know we need both um and so we want somebody um who looks healthy to be an advocate to spread this message um and we see it in the Facebook groups like especially those who have been in the Facebook groups since this recent surge in popularity um there's a lot of misinformation there's a lot of confusion there's a lot of relativism and you know just kind of this lost angst where people are relapsing and and getting uh misled by uh poor sources of information and uh anyone who has gone too far down you know to bring in current events uh the liver you know the liver King and and the supplements and the organs and honey it's like it's really it's a tricky slippery slope I've seen people do it uh responsibly and in moderation but it's just like any other negative um thing like if people who want to drink once a year you know for a special occasion I've heard you mention that like you know if you want to you know you're gonna feel like crap and it's like it's a choice it's like you don't have to never drink ever but like you if you did it every day you would hate yourself so it's like you're not going to do it you're just going to choose not to not out of like a religious thing but just not choosing that as your daily life and you love how you feel people are getting confused and lost by that in these Facebook groups it's hard to keep the message clear and a lot of them are having to go private because of this where the information just gets too burdensome to Monitor and manage um to try to have the quality people answer the questions the people who are 10-year veterans like yourself who who have lived it and uh know the science and know how it works in their bodies it's like that's who we need answering the question not just the first person who's available within two minutes you know and so it becomes this logistical Channel orange that I think the louder these YouTube voices can get and these podcasts can get in propagating information that they know works that they practice what they preach and that they aren't defrauding people I think that's critical for the health of the movement going forward yeah and um yeah as you say just sort of the more voices get out there more quality voices you know at least we can have we can have an open discussion and we can have a lot of information out there's so many different pieces of information so many different people like myself that that are saying different things and saying hey this is what I really think is going on and Polar Opposites right and some are yeah it's like slightly different like you know Dutch soldino and myself or you know you know Ken Varian saladino and all these sorts of things there's slight differences but right an overarching message will be the same with some differences and or maybe Polar Opposites like you know Gregor or Dean ornish and all that sort of stuff um very very different and so it's difficult for people to know what to believe who do I believe well you don't have to believe anyone look at the evidence that is provided and then decide for yourself and saying that you're very experience that's it and so you know like if you you know like you know you look at the site like I try to put studies in you know when I'm talking about a specific subject I'll try and put the studies that I discuss in that in that in those descriptions so I I try to make my sources open and people can check and I tell them you check check my references you know if you don't agree if you say you look at those same things and you just say well I don't I don't I don't come to that same conclusion that's fine you know and and that's why I put them there to make sure that people don't aren't just taking my word for it that they're looking at this and like look this is evidence-based and this evidence is either good or bad by their determination and they'll either Believe It or Not based on that and other people will say well there's this you know epidemiological survey that we sent out to 12 people and they all said that they feel better eating vegetables and like great if you want to believe that nonsense you can but here's something with 30 000 patients and it shows exactly the opposite of what they're showing and so you just have to look at that and you have to be able to yeah you have to start being able to get accustomed to reading studies and and understanding them but you know that is something that we should all aim to do because we do you know we look at the the arguments we look at both sides we look at the evidence presented and then we check their references so we don't just take their word for it check their references to see if like well did they come to the right conclusion based on that evidence a lot of times it's they're not you know a lot of times you see a study you know you always read the study you never just read the conclusions you read the whole study because oftentimes the conclusion does not meet with what the study actually showed they come to a conclusion that I would that I would not come to a lot of these things and so you have to read the study yourself and you just say Okay do I agree with that conclusion or not what conclusion will I make draw from that and then you make a decision yourself or the methodology is just total bogus um like so I I take a whole College course on reading on reading uh scientific studies like on p-values and statistic uh you know statistical uh significance and like your abstract versus your methodology and all these like ins and outs like if you don't know what that means they could just they could just funnel you towards the conclusion they they want you to to to read off and a lot of the deck like the data sets for the studies that are the foundation of all of what we do scientifically with human health are behind paywalls like they're locked and then even when you get in the paywall you don't have access to the raw data you have access to the filtered data yeah and so like you have to get special academic permission to see what big frauds they are like came out with The China Study or all kinds of different things like that it's just they didn't share the data um in an unfiltered way they told you what the answer was and then just said believe us and that's not science no it's not and you know evidence is is I mean that the origin of that word is what is evident what can be seen right that's what evidence means you know that which can be seen so we could see this and then we you know make a decision and a lot of those things whenever someone won't share their data their raw data you know something's up and there are a lot of these studies that you can't even get academic commission they they will not release their raw data anytime that happens you need to be extremely suspicious of the conclusions that they draw if not outright just completely just say well I'm not not even going to pay attention to that because if you're not willing to show your raw data if you're not really willing to show your work then I can't trust you I can't trust your conclusion I can't trust your study I have no idea what your study is I have no idea if any of this is accurate I have no idea because you won't show your work and uh yeah so they'll be behind a paywall but oftentimes in certain certain ones I I can think of some specific examples but they're they're the authors that have been short a challenge like hey is this is this really true can you show us your work can I look at your raw data and they just refuse you know something's up oh yeah yeah it's it's just absolutely insane what passes for established fact there's just never been explored you know we in the low carb Community have tried eating less carbs and found amazing success and so we're primed already because we have this evidence that we experience in our bodies and we're like okay what else is complete BS and it's like maybe plants like all of them like so it's like okay so we're primed to to okay what other thing are you not sharing but you know that's where without good guys like yourself um the conspiracy theories can get a little out there and it really helps to have educated guides to like keep us on the rails keep us skeptical but keep us grounded too yeah well hopefully it'll be more and more and more people out there uh voicing this and getting the information out there and then actually getting some actually big studies you know showing that look here's what it is an experiment and we don't need to we don't need to guess anymore uh we actually have big robust studies so hopefully that can happen um great well Phil yes thank you so much uh for coming on it's been absolute pleasure it was a great time uh speaking with you and picking your brain on all of this I appreciate you coming on um how can people get a hold of you how can people uh reach out to you and um you know uh how do people order a carnivore bar so it's just carnivorebar.com um we're active on Instagram we're getting more active on Twitter um we have a Facebook but it's kind of um Instagram is the place to be for uh carnivore brands for whatever reason and um we do answer our messages uh we you can get it in an ammo box um just a 50 cal round ammo box we're primarily unfortunately doing the states um so it is a little difficult to ship overseas after um events of 2020. but we are working on expanding we're going to get a barbecue um bar for people who are more explorative and then on the other end we're going to go with a lamb bar that's going to be a little more expensive but uh it's gonna be low histamine because that's one of our biggest requests from our hardcore zero carb carnivores is that we want something that has not been aged at all and so controversial harvesting and animal for maturity but if you're going low carb and you're going low histamine man you have very few options so we want to go deeper in that Niche and so carnivorebar.com awesome and obviously you know I'm an affiliate on that so you guys can use my discount code that's in the description of my videos and for a discount on that uh Phil thank you so much for coming on I hope to do it again sometime soon thanks for having me oh man [Music]