Special Guest Interview with a PhD in Exercise Physiology and Nutrition, Dr Sarah Zaldivar!

all right hello everybody is dr chafee again with the plant free md podcast is here with a special guest dr sarah zaldavar who was kind enough to come on the show i was on her show uh the other week and now she's you know kind enough to come online thank you very much how are you i'm great thank you so much anthony yeah so i was just going to say just for those who people who don't know you uh tell us a little bit about yourself and and what you do sure so um people like to call me a carnivore dog i don't really look at myself as a carnivore doctor um it's just that i have a youtube channel where i tell the benefits of a carnivore diet and the way i came across that is well i guess first academically i did my bachelor's and my master's in nutrition and dietetics and i did that in lebanon i'm not sure if i ever mentioned that before um so i'm actually lebanese yeah oh cool yeah and literally the same month that i graduated with my master's degree i hopped on a plane and i a one-way ticket to miami and i did my phd in exercise physiology technically it's with a minor in nutrition but they removed that just because i had a masters in nutrition so i did not have to do this extra year in nutrition because i already had all those courses so so yeah and i graduated with that doctorate and after a very long time and then um throughout that period of time i was teaching at miami-dade college i'm still teaching at miami dade actually at first i taught at um you know as doctoral students you're supposed to you're supposed to teach nutrition so i did that and then once you graduate um i transferred to miami-dade and i taught the same you know intro to nutrition course i still do this part-time online and and i'm doing a lot of you know entrepreneurial things i guess creating online courses youtube channel social media things like that so throughout that whole journey um i realized that it's very difficult to get fit eating what i was told was good for me right and um it was very also difficult for me to to convert to being a on a carnivore diet like unlike you where you were just told or a very young age you know you know plants are poisonous nobody ever told told me that like for years for decades really becoming a dietitian and then a phd in the field and then nobody ever mentioned the term anti-nutrient or poisons or plant self-defense chemicals until i was at my wit's end you know constantly going through this yo-yo dieting trying to get fit and then getting cravings and sugar addiction and you know every time this would happen i i would go out and buy a new book to understand why is this happening so that's how i understood what functional medicine is learned uh from you know dr mark hyman and all those people i bought all the books in the world and then eventually i came across dr steven gundry's um the plant paradox which has it's like a chock full of information and i know it's ironic everybody always laughs in the comments like isn't it funny how all the carnivores started with like dr steven gundry and he's still recommending plant foods it is funny but at least it was in the right direction you know yeah it just planted the seed um so yeah that's that's how i became a quote-unquote carnivore dog i did not set out to be a carnivore doctor that's not like that's what i want to do it's just i want to i want to be a youtuber and share the passions that i have and my passions are fitness and um anti-aging i do want to live forever we can talk about that i know it sounds crazy but i think i could make a case for myself and um and really music music and rhythm and you know that's that's the ultimate goal good yeah yeah i think it is funny you know i think dr gundry did so much great work in really pointing out you know the simple fact that you know plants defend themselves by having using chemical deterrence and and one of those being lectins and really really broke the case wide open and really uh you know showed people just how harmful these these things are and i i think it's it's quite a you know ironic that then he is out is pushing a plant-based diet as well and you know after after he made such a good case for the fact that that plants cause so much harm through these these chemical natural chemical deterrents and then says oh yeah but but you should still eat them like no no why exactly you know you made such a strong argument and and um you know so obviously i think that uh you shouldn't eat plants but you know and you know i i think it might be that you know he's just sort of looking at lectins and saying well there's there's a way around lectins through various means and these are sort of the main things and maybe that's why he thinks that you can you can sort of you know eat eat plants uh yeah and get away with it but obviously there are thousands and thousands and thousands of other uh toxins and antinutrients and different sorts of things found in plants and vegetables that also cause harm it's not just it's not just lectins you know we become very myopic um in in what we think is wrong we think oh this is the one wrong thing we avoid that and then we'll be okay like cholesterol like carbs like lectins but of course most things on earth are bad for you there are very few select things that are actually good for you and i think that's what we we need to need to remember um yeah you know that that's it's interesting you know when you said that you know you were having you know yo-yo diets and different sorts of problems with that when you had a masters in nutrition you know isn't that isn't that funny that you know someone who who gets taught who should you know really um know more than anybody like this is exactly what you need to do in order to maintain optimal health you know you're doing these sorts of things that you learn that you got you know taught in your program and yet it's not really working for you i mean how crazy is that it's insane that's actually one of the reasons oh the main reason i wanted to become a dietitian is because i thought that there's no dietitian who's not fit right like 17 year old me that's what i was thinking yeah and then my first professor was not not just overweight i mean i love her she's amazing but she she was even more than overweight you know wait i still remember that first semester is like huh my life plan is is trying it's not working right now but then you know i still love the field and i stuck with it but i learned i i don't think i was able to verbalize it back then but now i i tell this to my students all the time like a really important life lesson is that don't ever take advice from somebody you don't want to end up looking like or being like yeah and that goes for financial advice relationship diet everything because what i've realized after being so deep into the knowledge and theory um of things that once you try to apply the theory nine out of ten times it just goes out the window really yeah once you apply something that's when you really figure out what works and what doesn't and oftentimes it's those those lonely heads that are saying the complete opposite of what the mainstream is saying it seems that they're almost always right because think about it what percentage of people have everything going for them like financially relationship wise fitness and health at the same time very few people right and so that makes sense that that advice is rare and so you need to seek it out and pay attention to who's saying that and look at their transformation yeah that's a very good point um it you know it's funny you say that like i agree you know you you're you see someone who's like a fitness expert or something like that and they they are not fit and someone is a nutrition expert and they are not uh you know healthy and they hide behind their lab coats and their degrees behind them it's like no show me your body let's let's start there you know yeah yeah i think it was um there was a there's a saying once before that i heard it was like never trust a skinny baker and it always cracked me up you know it's just like yeah well look you know if he's not eating his own food and getting fat from it then obviously he's not any good and you know so you know don't don't trust you know an unhealthy doctor is probably a good good way of doing it too you know either his advice isn't good enough for him to to follow and and he's you know a bit of a hypocrite and saying do what i say not as i do or his advice is bad and you know i got into it with uh you know a guy who um is a bariatric surgeon you know he's going off about you know plant-based you know have to be vegan this that and the other it's just like why do you exist as a profession if your advice works so well you know if you're if your advice actually helps people get thin and helps them and helps them lose weight and get healthy why the hell are you doing surgeries at all you know and it's just like you can't even see that you know that this guy's own recommendations are causing these people to get sick and unhealthy and require a life-threatening surgery that has serious morbidity and lifelong ramifications and people don't realize that they think oh this is going to make me thin this is going to cure my diabetes and so forth this has really uh you know high morbidity and and even if everything goes well the purpose of this is to really restrict you and make it very painful and uncomfortable to eat food of any of any description and you know i've seen people that have had you know very serious problems with this and that you know just in the hospital as patients you know when i was like you know an intern and and uh and you know shortly after like in the emergency department so far we would always get people with gastric bands and post surgery and stuff like that there's always a problem there's always a problem and always a problem and they're always in so much pain and so much discomfort and and you know and then i've had i've had you know family and friends who have underwent these these surgeries and had horrific times you know had to get multiple re-operations um yeah you know one the the their um stomach the outlet close us uh stenos down to you know basically like a straw and the i swear to god the dietitian the nutritionist that worked with this uh a bariatric surgeon said well look you just have to get calories you just have to it doesn't matter what it is just drink soda you know you just need to drink soda you need to get 1200 calories a day from soda and like i i wanted to drive down there and punch him in the face you know it's like you're you're telling someone who has you know a serious eating you know issue with eating and problematic you know uh relationship with food and you you've just done you've hacked up their body to the point that they're completely nutrient deprived their hair was falling out they're very unhealthy they were they were really unwell and you're telling them to actually eat in a more dysfunctional way and that's your solution i mean what sick bastard wow you know would you think for a second that that was an appropriate piece of advice yeah yeah a lot of people that are just they look at it as a job you know it's not it's just you know i i've had dietitians i went to school with who are like yeah i don't care if i get a job at coca-cola or like at a food industry you know to help them with the nutrition side of things and i just ever from whenever i was very very young i just thought that that was mind-blowing i could never live for that like what's like there's so many ways to make money you know is it just about the money i mean is that happiness and fulfillment i don't know no well definitely not and and the thing is is that you know like you say you know some people just approach us as a job and forget that your job is dealing with people's health and their life and the rest of their life and you know especially when you're talking about medicine you know but even dietary recommendations you're you know someone's giving someone oh yeah yeah just do this and then then they just go and you don't know what's going on after that and maybe they have years and years of pathological eating and and sickness because of that but you know in in medicine especially you know these are real people and and you you you cannot just look at them as like oh yeah it's just it's just it's just my day job whatever that's life that is that there's a human being and they are coming to you for help and they're hurt and they're sick and they're scared and they need your help and if people don't recognize that and actually really internalize that about how serious this this is i think they just need to get the hell out of the profession and i'll say that to anybody right to their face you know anytime i'm operating or i'm getting ready to operate or i'm seeing somebody i think to myself what if this was my dad you know what if someone else was operating on my dad what would i want what would i want them to do what would i need them to get ready for and i just i focus myself like that and i'm just like i'm going to give this person as the best care possible and even you know you know when i'm when i'm doing something and i'm thinking about okay well maybe this maybe this is a little bit out of my depth you know like can i do this can i do this and then i think to myself okay well what if this was my family what if what if you know my my dad was on the table and someone was having these thoughts i'm like you know do i need to call someone in can i actually do this as well as as someone as someone else and i really do think about that and if i go like you know someone else should be here that's what you when you're training you have to think like that you know when you're early on in your career as a doctor that's something that you really need to think about because you're going to hurt somebody and you could potentially kill them and so if you you can't have you know you can't get caught in in your own hubris and think like oh yeah yeah this will be fine because it may not and so you know until you're until you're confident then you can do something as well as you know someone else then you probably shouldn't be doing it you know you really need to to get ready for that because this this is someone's life and and you know so so you know like you say you know but people sort of look at this and they just oh do you just get these calories this time the other and it's just like would you tell your mother to do that would you tell your mother just drink a bunch of soda and that and that's what you need to do it's like um i don't get i don't understand it i just for me this is also porn people who do these kinds of things and who can live their lives like that i i don't get it you know i don't know yeah um yeah so that's that's one of the things i think that you know in in traditional nutrition you know we're being taught by overweight unhealthy professors we're taking the textbook advice and it's not working and yet we still just take all but this is what it is and then we regurgitate it and pass it on and and um you know i think that it's it's great when when people like yourself you know sort of look at this and get the traditional teaching and then just realize like this isn't working like this doesn't work right you know and so you try to like search and find what the hell else uh it was out there that can work and then eventually you know you find you you found this which is which is great um yeah personal experimentation is crucial yeah absolutely yeah and you know because yeah like you say you know these theoreticals say like well this is what it says in the book okay but is it is it true does it actually work practice right you know if it doesn't then it doesn't matter you know i say kind of all the time is you know richard feynman the american physicist said you know if it does it doesn't matter how brilliant your theory is and it doesn't matter how smart you are if it doesn't agree with experiment it's wrong and so these textbooks can say you know everything they want about you do this and you will get this but then when you do it and it doesn't do that you'll be like well that's you know that's out you know and they're individual you know sort of responses to different things but you know by and large that this isn't happening for the large majority of people you know only probably not the way um yeah so you know obviously i talk a lot about you know the poisons in plants and you know how and that's how i first came to carnivores just you're learning that that plants are you know they their their natural defense one of their natural defenses is is being poisonous and so you know they don't want you to eat them and so they they work very hard to stop you from eating that you talk a lot about anti-nutrients as well you know i did a sort of a show on that but you know and i touched on a lot of different sorts of things but you know the take-home from that show wasn't you know to go through every single thing that's wrong with plants it's just to illustrate just how damn many of these things there are you know and so you know you can can share with us some some more that people don't know about and scare them yeah okay um yeah i mean i wish somebody had mentioned this to me at any point in time just just the concept i mean just the idea that plants have self defense chemicals in them and once somebody hears that sentence i think it can kick-start a chain of events that eventually leads them to reaching the conclusion that we have reached um but yeah so i i also have a bunch of videos on my youtube channel and different anti-nutrients because we call them anti-nutrients those plant cells defense chemicals or poisons um i have a lot of content there i've done also an interview with uh professor bart k on on his youtube channel also where we talk about those things but in a nutshell you have um so in grains and beans and legumes you have things like lectins and phytic acid those are kinds of anti-nutrients um in grains the the probably most well-known anti-nutrient is gluten but people don't realize is that it's not only the gluten but also all grains have a family of anti-nutrients called prolamines for example in oats it's called avenin what is avid and avenue is a type of prolamine similar to how gluten is a type of prolamine and they exist just to make it harder on the predator um to make the predators life harder basically after they consume that grain or that seed um you've got saponins um in the nightshade family of vegetables the nitrate family of vegetables probably the most inflammatory of the plant foods and those are the tomatoes the peppers the goji berries you know the health halo the goji berries it's actually a nightshade and while we don't actually consume it nicotine is actually also a nightshade um vegetable um eggplants i mean i grew up like lebanon you it's the mediterranean diet so we grew up eating you know hummus and and eggplant dip i don't know if you've ever heard it has a really funny name when i say it now it's not speaking in arabic oh yeah no i know yeah yeah you know it yeah so it's an eggplant dip it's delicious you know i love it and uh and i just don't eat it anymore and that's because it's a night shade so all those night shades have that particular um form of anti-nutrient called saponins um potatoes is a nightshade the specific kind of um so this opponent in it it will actually yeah the specific type of silicone in it is called solanine you know that green part in potatoes when they're improperly or improperly stored or stored for a long period of time i mean spinach has something called an aquaporin and it's also found in soy and corn which is which mimics kind of like your natural water channels and your cells and messes with with them um what else i mean we can keep going and going we can talk about this more if you want so so how did you come across these yourself you know because like you say you weren't you weren't taught this so you presumably had to sort of learn it yourself teach yourself what were your your sort of resources that you you found all these yeah so reading the book first of all and then um i was doing hiro around that time when i was reading dr gundry and it was popular to do zucchini spirals or zoodles um where you get the zucchini and you turn it into spiral and then you saute it with olive oil yeah well i was just looking at different ways to do it so gross yeah it is especially now that i found out that when i was doing everything right and i was convinced that i was going to be in ketosis the state of fat burning and i wasn't i'm like there's no way i mean i i'm in deep ketosis right now i know exactly what i'm eating i've been testing my ketones for a while like i have to be in ketosis and i wasn't and the only thing that was different was that i had started doing those zucchini in the like last couple of days doing those zucchini pasta things and uh i guess i was so stressed out internally i didn't realize it but the seeds of the zucchinis have anti-nutrients in them and the skins of plants generally this is where they're concentrated and i was simply not in that fat burning mode and that was when it really clicked because i was reading the information and i was doing it like experimenting right and i made the link it's like okay so he's right he's like it's because i'm consuming those anti-nutrients that's what's happening and this is when i started like i took a deep breath i'm like oh my god am i really gonna do this am i really gonna do carnivore now because i was also watching you know michaela peterson and dr jordan peterson and um sean baker and paul saladino were getting on joe rogan and i knew in my head that that it made sense and i knew that that is probably the ideal way to go but i just couldn't you know it was just so different than what i grew up eating you know i grew up eating a plant-based diet i grew up eating rice and beans and hummus and tabbouleh which is like the um kind of like a mediterranean staple salad um if you've ever been to a mediterranean restaurant that's like a basic thing that everybody eats and so it was difficult for me um coupled with the very long brainwashing during traditional academia was very difficult for me to finally do that transition but but that was like a big a big trigger um another thing actually i forgot to mention this so my husband um would eat only carnivore when i first met him i would get into like i would always be on his case like how can you not eat fruits and vegetables like you have to focus on on eating your servings yeah and he'd be like yeah okay and he had like six fat well not just yet because he didn't start competing but very close to having a six-pack and um i would be on his case like all the time to eat veggies at least and the only vegetable he actually ate was a bed of spinach so he only ate like eggs and egg whites meat like turkey and chicken breast and beef mainly meats all day long and the only real vegetable he would eat was a bed of spinach that's actually how i found out about the aquaporins what is it in spinach and when we made the link later on and he he's always struggled with really debilitating low back pain like really bad to the point where he eventually after years um scheduled a uh like a laser surgery um but he was putting off the surgery for a very long period of time because he was very scared of going under and you know them operating so close to his spine and all that kind of stuff and that was around the time when i was starting to understand what anti-nutrients are learning about him and and i was like okay what is the only potential cause dietary wise that it could be and i i just suggested like you know what maybe maybe cut out the spinach just try see what happens and he did and it went away like back pain so severe to the point of getting surgery for decades he's had seen the top doctors at the university of miami and jackson memorial hospital all of those like big hospitals in miami and they were like it's because you have a bulging disc because like there was a hurricane in the 90s and he was like moving a tree trunk away from his house and he injured his back and they all just said oh it's because of that that you have the pain i mean we just always assumed it's the bulging disc well now that he took out this spinach and it like it's like quietly went away he didn't even realize it went away for a while he was just not complaining about it anymore that's when we realized that it was the inflammation from the diet that was exacerbating the mechanical damage that was inflicted upon his spine and after a few months he he had not been eating spinach for a while i think we were coming home from like the beach or something just wanted something different some some veggie and so we uh he bought a bag of spinach instantaneously the low back pain and the soreness came back and with a vengeance for like three days after that and that was it that was like the 100 we were certain that that's what it was and then also how i found out it was the aquaporins is because um [Music] a few like a little while later he had something with corn which he never ever touches corn but like i think it was thanksgiving or something we had corn and it also came back and he started complaining like i wonder what it what it is i mean we had forgotten about that issue of yours and and that's when i dug into the research i was like what is the one common thing between the spinach and the corn and it turns out it's the aquaporins so that's that's another major thing also that made me even more convinced about the importance of eating a carnivore diet um what else and and just my clients i had a client well actually she was a student of mine that i uh she took a semester of mine and uh decided to do carnivore diet reverse her psoriasis her anxiety depression went away um she said i feel happy and i'm losing weight and you know like all these things are happening and i couldn't have taken this course at a better time so things like that you know with my clients with my students made me convinced of like yeah that is there's no doubt in my mind that is the optimal human diet yeah yeah i i definitely think so as well and obviously you know because of just copious amounts of data that that suggests that but also just how i feel as well so i i've had that that same experience as uh you and your your husband uh when i was you know first doing this you know 20 plus years ago you know i had i had back pain since i was 15. i remember thinking when i was 15 i've got like the back of a 60 year old man it just it always hurt and i just figured because i just always played a lot of sports i was very active or actually switched to wearing my my wallet in my front pocket because like you know you sort of sit on it funny and that can like cause a little background i was just trying to figure something out yeah you know to help my back pain because it was just awful and then all of a sudden i didn't have back pain at all for years and i was playing you know very high level rugby i was playing tons of games training all the time i had no back pain and then you know i was 27 and i was down in san diego and i had sort of slipped off the diet um you know a bit over the last sort of year year or two um and all of a sudden i was just like oh my you know my back kind of hurts like that's funny i haven't had back my back pain my back usually doesn't hurt and i was like wait wait a minute my back always hurts and when the hell does this happen i remember thinking back on my power i really haven't had back pain in years and then yeah and then you know now if i you know eat just any any amount of you know carbs or grains or or you know rice or beans or anything like that if they just sort of slip into my food at a restaurant or something like that it i will get serious uh aches and pains but i'll get like bad back pain like stabbing pain in my lower back where it's just it's you know to the point that i almost i'm non-functional and you know i think that obviously i wasn't you know necessarily that that bad with that small amount before but your body builds up resistances to different toxins and so you know you're just like a tolerance with alcohol this is a poison and you're going to build up a tolerance to it you can build up intolerances to these poisons as well and acclimatize yourself to them and that's not a good thing it just means your body's desperately trying to protect you from something harmful but it does build up a bit and so maybe it's not as as profound as as when it's completely out of your system and your body goes oh thank god we're not dealing with that crap anymore and then all of a sudden you know you get it in there and you get hit full in the face with it so i think yeah and also now you see the difference whereas like i feel absolutely fantastic all the time now and then like all of a sudden you drop down uh you know just drops you a bit you know no don't like that i don't want that and and you can actually see that contrast quite clearly um i'm just gonna say about like the back pain because obviously you know in neurosurgery we deal with back pain all the time and unfortunately there are not many surgeries uh that will you know there are not many causes of back pain that surgery is going to help unfortunately 95 of back pain can be resolved by just strengthening the muscles that support the spine and that will hold it together more and then we'll reduce the pain 95 there are some instances where where uh surgery will help and maybe a fusion will help and so forth these are things that that actually you know you don't want to have to do unless you have to do it and some people have to do it or else they're going to be in big trouble but you know if you can avoid if you can ever avoid the knife do it you know and that's one of the things that i talk to people about and they're just in serious pain and you know or maybe we you know they have serious you know uh you know pain from like a pinched nerve and we release the nerve and they still have the pain and we do an mri angle yeah i know it's it's free and clear now but that nerve's just been damaged because it's been compressed for a number of years and it's just not it's just not waking up and you know and then we don't really have too many options for these people well i try to tell them i was like like listen you know there are different things in foods that will cause inflammation that will cause more pain and you know you can try eliminating these things off and actually had fantastic results with a lot of people some people are quite resistant i i was actually talking to a lady today and and she she wanted that magic pill she wanted that panacea she wanted surgery to happen and all her problems to go away and unfortunately you know i say unfortunately fortunately she actually had no no structural problems with her back and she didn't have any any sort of impinged nerves and and you know structurally and neurova neurologically she was completely intact which is wonderful that's that's usually good news when you tell somebody that and she was very upset because she had very bad back pain and she she wanted there to be something wrong that we could fix and i understand that completely but you know there wasn't there wasn't anything and and so we just had to say it was like well no you just need to strengthen these muscles and and you know and then you can try you know different sorts of foods and so forth you know eliminating things off like you know especially like you know grains and beans and sugar and so forth and and she was just i've never heard that no one's ever told me that before no one's ever said anything like that i was like okay well but it is something that you can try and and you know and see how you go and hopefully she does because you know i feel very sorry for her because she's you know she's not happy and she's in a lot of pain and yeah you know we don't have a magic fix we don't we don't have i know i i completely understand that level of desperation something i forgot to mention is also that i like struggled with acne and i i just i did not understand what i could do about it and i went from doctor to doctor and um i would be i didn't do the research just because i felt like when i saw the doctor they're gonna give me a solution right and so it's always in trying different solutions so he did all the creams um three-month antibiotic this is so stupid but i did it and then another three-month birth control treatment um i did accutane twice um spironolactone for two years which messed up my hormones for that while and that's probably yeah it's it's awful so nothing worked but it just gave me like a band-aid it like mentally oh i'm just wait until i finish this accutane round then then i should have a solution or like let's just wait until the second accutane round ends and i was constantly in that so i completely understand and i empathize with her how when you're at your wit's end and those are the only solutions that you think you have and once those did not work out is when i really started doing the research and i came across dr lauren cordain you know he's like the grandfather of the modern paleo movement that was like my first introduction to alternative forms of dieting because all those diets were branded as a fat i would go to school to become a dietitian and my homework would be like why is the side of fat and why is that diet of fat every single diet on the planet was considered a fat except what the academy of nutrition and dietetics was recommending which is you know all the carbs the grains and the dairy and all that kind of stuff so yeah and that's just that's just that's not a fad that's a farce you know like follow the mighty one of one of my favorite exercises i like to do with my students every semester is like like okay let's go to let's just at least check out the wikipedia page of the academy of nutrition and dietetics and like i'll throw all the way down to the criticism and where where they talk about all of their partnerships you know with the food companies and the sugar foundation it's like and everybody is like whoa what what is that you know yeah i mean serious conflicts of interest um yeah absolutely crazy so obviously you're you're you're teaching now your professor at uh miami-dade is that right yeah yeah and so so what are you what are you teaching your students i mean are you you pitching the textbook are you trying to show them what the hell is actually happening yeah i can't i can't bite my tongue um technically you know i have to i have a textbook that uh that we're following so like but the basics are basics you know like carbs you have complex carbs and simple like the basic biology is fine there's no controversy there but then when we get to the point where we're talking about the main energy source it's you know they their textbook information states that it's glucose i'm like okay but also there's this and that you know and ketones are actually your natural fuel source they're a cleaner source of fuel it's a premium source of fuel for your cells and your brain cells um they don't release as much waste products and don't damage your metabolism in the long term as much as burning sugar is your main energy source so we talk about all those things the good thing is that um i've recorded all of my lectures so it's like a flipped classroom so they'll watch the recording and then when we meet it's just one-to-one like discussions and q a um first because otherwise i would like kill myself if i kept on repeating the same lecture over and over again the second of all they really do enjoy the interaction because that's when they really remember the importance of what we're talking about so we end up mainly talking about what's going on in the field of nutrition right now the wars between the vegans and the carnivores and and all that kind of stuff and and they're very receptive i mean i've had amazing transformation stories with my students um and i and and it's really fun i i just only have one devout vegan this semester who's like on my case you know but it's also like we take it as a joke because it's like every tuesday in the afternoon i take a deep breath i'm like here we go you know it's like every every anything i say it's like what about this study what about this meta-analysis you know um so so we end up going back and forth with the studies and those kinds of things but yeah yeah well it's good though you know i i liked you know doing that i like talking to the vegans and vegetarians as well uh just because hey i like talking to people like sort of seeing how they they tick but you know also because um you know they obviously are really passionate about this sort of thing and i also i want to know you know what i'm missing you know so i you know when early on in this when i was really just finding out more and more and more and more and more and sat and asking questions okay okay you know if we're carnivores and if this is affecting our health you know in in xyz fashion you know we should be seeing you know this in the literature what are we seeing and you know i would be i'd find things and be like yeah okay that that is what we're seeing okay that's interesting and you know keep going with that but then you know when i when i sort of satisfied a lot of my curiosity uh in that regard i sort of said okay i don't want to just be looking at things uh that that you know prove my point you know i want to try to you know prove myself wrong as i it was any any any you know honest uh you know attempted at the study supposed to be yeah you're supposed you're supposed to have a hypothesis and you're supposed to try to prove yourself wrong yeah you're not supposed to try to prove yourself right you're also trying to prove yourself wrong and so i was like okay great all right so i was i was trying to find things that that countered my my thought on this and so i was going to websites about you know you know from vegan doctors and and um you know and and nutritionists and blogs and and watching their videos and and reading their their uh arguments and saying and asking a question okay well what about this can you answer this and that's this and they would they would answer and so forth and just see what they they had to offer and it just became more and more apparent they were like yeah this is this is really a house of cards and and it's not really um it's just not stacking up you know one of the main things that uh you know vegans that vegans i've spoken to a lot of a lot of ones that have then sort of had that like oh okay moment is you know you ask them how many supplements they take you know and it's just like they're always taking a lot of them if they're have any semblance of health they're taking a lot of supplements because you don't last too long without taking supplements as a vegan um not more than a few years anyway and so they're always taking a lot of supplements and so okay well why do you need to take supplements if you're eating what we're supposed to eat biologically you know what animal in the wild take supplements you know oh well we give b12 shots to cows no we don't we give b12 shots to cows in feedlots that are eating something they're not supposed to eat like us you know when they're eating grass they don't they don't get b12 shots and so no one's going and that's a big one they're saying like oh well we're giving we're giving the animals b12 shots anyway you might as well just skip the middleman and give ourselves be 12 shots am i really all animals you know so koalas are getting b12 shots you know squirrels are getting b12 shots pigeons are getting b12 shots i mean wow i mean the soil you know and you get it they come on yeah yeah yeah so it's just like you know it's like i i mean i think it's wonderful that these teams of of benevolent forest rangers are going around just giving all these injections for vitamins that these animals are just so deficient in it's like think for one second you know if if you need to take supplements to get basic nutrition then by definition your diet is deficient that that is a that is a definitional statement yeah you know and and maybe you're you know you're eating meat and the meat for some reason is deficient because you know the soil is deficient in magnesium and zinc as it is in australia and so you're just gonna have a bit less magnesium and zinc or something like that that can happen you know but you know when we were talking about just dozens and dozens of nutrients that you are not getting on a vegan diet you know you have you have to sort of uh sit up and take notice and uh and that's that's one thing i i was in the discussion with a friend of mine who was finishing up her phd in um you know nutrition and and that was that was really what god we were going just point for point study for study probably like you were doing with your student and then that was the sticking point she just said it's like okay well how many supplements do you take and i sort of like took me back i'm like i don't i don't i don't take anything of course you do like everyone does like what what do you take how much you take i was like no no no i don't i don't take anything i haven't taken anything in years like why would you have to take supplements if you're eating what your species evolved on and and all of a sudden she went crap you know and then it started to sink in and then she started really looking at things critically and and eventually she sort of just looked at me and just said my entire education was a lie so you convert wow that's congratulations i've got a 100 kill rate at this point for vegans vegetarians yeah 100 for for everyone who's actually engaged in a conversation anyway you know there are people that will just go like oh no you know that's not true because you know i stopped eating meat and then everything got better and they just they just don't want to uh have a discussion that's fine they don't have to but every everyone that's that's had his even if it was adversarial at first saying that like oh how can you possibly do that or whatever as long as as long as they're receptive and will actually engage in the conversation even if it's try to like you know prove me wrong and prove what a horrible person i am i get them all i've gotten every single one of them every single one of them has either turned carnivore directly or at least started eating a lot more meat there's there's one hold out where we went through and they always go through like you know nutritional and then when they start losing the nutrition side of things they go like well what about the you know the the environment this ain't gonna look like yes you know that's something that's very important and i agree with you this should be discussed however you know we're just talking about nutrition right now you know what's what's the best thing for people to eat and eventually they'll concede that point and say like okay i agree with you nutritionally this is the best thing for us to do but look at the environment great let's go into the environment and we talked about that for a while i just did a video sort of discussing some of those points and and then they go okay well what about the ethics side i think well no we're just talking about the environmental side of this thing right now and then you go down then you go down to the ethical side of things so i did all that stepwise progression um with this one person and they just got to the end of it and they were like yeah i you know what i agree with you i agree with everything you said i agree that you know animal you know eating a carnivore diet is the high-fat carnivore diet is you know the best thing that we can do nutritionally i agree that it's the best thing for the environment and i agree that you know it's ethically sound and probably more ethical than than uh the alternatives but i just can't bring myself to eat an animal i just i just you know mentally that i just can't do that i'm like that's that's fine you know i mean like it's they're just like they're just like it just made them feel really bad uh to do that and so it's just like okay you know that's that's your choice but at least you're making an informed decision but that's strange that they would agree with you on all major arguments but yet still don't i don't understand that part i think that they they just really felt a you know strong affinity with animals and thinking more as pets and just the idea of of eating your pet would be abhorrent and i think that's that's where they were coming from there was just the idea of doing that just made them feel bad inside and so there was i i just i can't do that and so you know maybe i mean animals will still die like people need to understand animals will still die in a far more gruesome manner on a plant-based diet you know it's like the rabbits are cute exactly 25 times as much deer um fish from the runoff of the water and the pesticides in the water um insects and and and scorpions not scorpios i was thinking spiders cute little scorpions little scorpions no but yeah like animals that are not necessarily all insects are they're sentient they feel emotion and they're dying in far more gruesome ways at a rate of 25 times more on a plant-based diet so whichever way you look at it it just makes no sense yeah yeah and uh yeah but you know everyone else has just been like okay yeah let's get a steak um you know she was just like yeah she just couldn't bring herself to do that maybe she came along eventually but that was the sort of you know that discussion congratulations it's really good that you're that you have the patience you know to go through because it takes a lot of time to go through all the arguments to finally being able to convert somebody yeah you know it does but i think it you know i think it's an interesting you know way to engage and i always like to hearing uh you know other people's arguments and i like to see okay you know what am i missing is there something else that that i'm not um that i'm you know not picking up on maybe i haven't seen yet um that's why i was really interested in doing that the um the debate the carnival versus vegan debate with the australian college of uh nutrition environmental medicine which was which was fun we had three people on the carnivore side or at least meat based side and three people on the vegan side and i remember sort of getting into this you know and there were you know you know people that were you know very very intelligent very you know uh you know acclaimed in their field uh you know was it was a cardiologist in sydney one um i think she was a pediatrician in sydney as well you know she had a you know masters of public health from harvard and this is where she started getting into the whole plant-based thing as well which was over at harvard when they're just pushing this whole plant-based ideology and you know that was that was actually one of the things that my parents you know my whole uh most of my family went to you know colleges such as you know pomona and harvard and and um you know yale and colombia and so forth and we were told when i was growing up that we were absolutely forbidden to go to any ivy league school and i was just like why and it was like well because they're they're indoctrination camps they're just political indoctrination camps and you know you're not you're going to get a better education at say university of washington which is a fantastic school uh then you will you know at one of these schools and you're not going to get just just this you know ideology just shoved down your your throat and um i don't know i don't i don't think i that would have really gotten me but uh and the university of washington is is uh you know pretty bad as well but um but either way that was sort of it yeah and this is the way that the system is set up you know because you have to get along with the rest of your department and you have to come like together to agree on a program you can't you like what happened to professor bart k right he's talking about carnivore diets when everybody else is teaching the office and the students are confused and then it becomes a problem for the other professors who are being asked well but professor parque told me this like i understand why that happens it's just kind of like the bureaucracy um negative side of it right well you get that group think unfortunately and yeah and you get into trouble that way and and there's a lot of problems there there was um there's a book i read called uh the big bang never happened and it goes through with all a lot of very very famous uh astrophysicists and so forth nobel prize winners etc talking about you know basically plat is the difference between plasma physics and um and gravitational uh physics and so you know the gravitational people are saying big bang big bang black holes dark matter all that sort of stuff and the plasma guys are saying like you're way off all those things are fudge factors and actually has this whole book that just lays out the math and there was a there's a documentary by the same name that's available on youtube i don't know where else it's available but certainly on youtube and it um it it sort of goes through sort of the the back room sort of political issues that some of these very famous uh uh physicists and and astrologists went through and then one guy was talking about how he was the director of this research institution and and university and and there was a grad student who was doing a phd and all she was doing was finding interesting things we were like oh wow look at this and look at this and look at this and this was basically showing evidence that went counter to the sort of that narrative and one of the professors came into a board meeting was just like you know we've got to cut her uh grant we've got to cut her tuition we have to we have to just get her out of the program just kick her out of here because you know she's finding things it's not like she was doing anything she wasn't doing this on purpose she was just finding this stuff she was just discovering things well she wasn't even challenging it she was just saying look i found this isn't that crazy you know it was just like you know it's like you know finding someone's dog shoot him you know and it's just like i didn't do anything and so you know they talked about this guy was very charismatic and he had a lot of sway with the with the other board members and saying you know we need to we need to cut this this woman's uh entire um program we need to kick her out a phd program because she's you know doing research she's finding things that that can be you know embarrassing to you know other people's research and you know goes a counter to you know everything that you know we're doing and he convinced everyone there and they all voted and you know they all voted to kick her off the program and this guy said that you know it's like so they all voted and that's fine but i was the director and it wasn't a democracy and i had final say so she stayed you know and so it's like thank god that this guy was in a position to do that but there's a lot of there's a lot of that out there and uh yeah you know yeah that's like length principle right science advances one funeral at a time yeah yeah it's true yeah they even did like there was a paper i did a youtube video highlighting that paper that came out in 2019 um basically they they they run the numbers and it turns out yeah it's true once a famed researcher dies they're closed collaborators number of papers dips and the year is following and then the other newbies into the field they start putting out more and more they start publishing a lot more on that same field but like in a different way you know they're driving progress basically they're they're going in a different direction when they didn't really want to challenge the status quo before or they couldn't get through before yeah yeah it it that that's um yeah that's very unfortunate that that happens but you know these guys they stake their entire reputation their entire careers on this and they don't have you know the testicular fortitude to say you know what i got it wrong and uh and let's go in a different direction the only the only time i've really heard about you know um richard dawkins from uh oxford talks about this music writes about religion and versus science he says science is so great because you know you can be proven wrong and you know someone will come up and shake your hands like oh you've disproven my entire life's work thank you sir yeah and yeah yeah and he describes this as happening in oxford once and but he only tells that story because i'm pretty sure he's never seen it again um that is the isolated incidents you know but it can happen it's supposed to happen but unfortunately yeah it doesn't always my father when he was doing his phd at berkeley in math and physics he was a physicist at the lawrence livermore radiation laboratory there in berkeley and one of his professors um you know they were there he was on louis alvarez's team who you know got the nobel prize for you know cracking the atom and studying subatomic particles and developing the bubble chamber and so forth and so my father was on his team when they were doing that work and so they're just discovering all these you know these plasma forces and these attractive uh you know ionic forces between like you know negative each negatively charged um electron and a positively charged proton and and how this was 10 to the 42nd power times more powerful than gravity than the gravitational force between those two objects and so he walked into uh his professor's office and the guy was just you know shell-shocked and he just said you know he was just all out of it and my my dad said like is everything okay like something happened he just said i think i've wasted the last 20 years of my life and i was like really like you know what happened he's like it's 42 orders of magnitude more times more powerful than gravity gravity can't be the answer it cannot be you know these plasma forces have to be it just simply cannot be the driving force in the universe obviously it's a major factor plays a major role but it's not the main role and so he said i've wasted the last 20 years of my life and so he actually scrapped all the things that he was doing he completely shifted gears and went into an entire different vein of research because of that the you know that is probably the only time i've actually ever heard of someone doing that because it it takes a lot you know you're you are really giving up your entire career and trying to remake your name and yeah and people are afraid that it goes like oh what if i just say oh everything i did was a lie how can they believe anything else i say i was like well right because you're honest you know like you sacrificed so much and just said look we found something new we've got to move on which is what einstein did all the time by the way people don't know that people think that you can just prove something mathematically go well i have this mathematical proof this is what it is because einstein said we could have this theory of everything and so forth but when einstein had a theory and he had you know made equations and proved something mathematically and then they found and you know through observation and so forth something to test it against and it didn't show up to be right he scrapped it which is like well that was wrong obviously i didn't know everything that was going on there there's something else happening and and that's that's something that any you know honest ethical real scientist needs to be able to do you know that's amazing i had no idea about your background um and that must be fun growing up having a physicist for a father right and you know engaging in those kinds of conversations yeah yeah yeah dinner table conversations were always very interesting you know my mom's very very intelligent very educated woman as well so they they they always joked around if they what went on couples jeopardy they would never get a question wrong like one of them will know every single time and uh it would have been funny to actually see if they had if they had done that but you know and then we had you know i had four siblings so there were five of us and we were always interested in different things and studying different things so yeah it was always very interesting conversations at the table you actually learned quite a lot just over the dinner table through that i can imagine yeah that was fun yeah yeah cool yeah i was gonna say like about that um to circle back to the beginning of that um you know that lady that was at that at harvard it was in that debate you know she sort of got uh you know into the whole vegan plant-based mindset while at harvard and and that's what she says i was learning this and this was at harvard so obviously harvard's correct and that is the mindset that harvard teaches you my my grandparents met at harvard and that was what they said they're like this is like they teach you that if you went to harvard it's right no matter what you know and then my my grandmother also went to chicago which was the exact opposite say you need to test this you need to prove it you have two theories you need to find evidence of which to test them against um and uh whereas people who go to harvard it's just like i went to harvard excuse me that's right because i went to harvard and i met people like this and my grandfather told me that when he was there like that was that was how they tried to instill that and it was it was pretty toxic and um yeah so she went to harvard and therefore it's right you know and so yeah you know and then she came into this debate and with the the other two were you know were great they were they were you know very intelligent very very uh learned people but they didn't bring a single argument that i hadn't heard a hundred times before and and i was actually actually quite you know nervous i was like okay you know what if i see something i haven't seen before how am i going to react to this over that and so i was doing a lot of prep work and it was just like not a single thing was new not a single thing it was just the same tired ass lies that have just been disproven time and time again it was it was pretty crazy yeah yeah and if you go to these kinds of universities or even most universities are espousing a plant-based diet and you're going to believe it because i believed it until i realized that um i i want to look better i want to feel better i i want to constantly push my limits and so in my drive to do that i realized that everything that i was taught was was wrong so you have to either be put in a situation where you must change because you have some form of autoimmune condition or something or if you don't have that then you have to have an inner drive to push the limits and challenge yourself because nobody's perfect and you can always do better always in every single area of your life and so those are the only two situations where i feel like people who went to a traditional um school or university can actually start challenging those beliefs and ideologies because they went through that experience and um and it's rare it's it's it's rare to find i don't know what what are your thoughts what other i don't know what other hope we have because right now most universities are doing this yeah and i think i think that is a problem because everyone's getting the traditional dogma and really what it is propaganda um pumped into their heads and and you know some people that it you know it's funny you know some people you know if they you know they're you know thomas sowell who's like my favorite you know writer author thinker and so forth also went to harvard also had a lot of disparaging remarks about harvard um you know he said that you know it takes a lot of knowledge to understand just how ignorant we are and it really does you know you have to know so much you have to know a lot to realize to really crest that hill and look over and realize oh my god there's just so much i just don't know and don't understand and to have a little humility about it you know that it was like a is it sort of famously quoted but it's a poem i think from the 1500s called the appearance spring and that's the fountain of knowledge and i said you know uh drink deep or taste not the appearance spring or the yeah the puri and spring because a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and it goes on you know to describe how this is a bad idea but that's what i said you know a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and it really is you know you get you just get a little taste of it and you just think yeah i know everything from here and and this is a trap i call it you know the the trap of the of the intelligent the educated is because they are you know people can be educated and intelligent and do so well at whatever their you know specific uh field of expertise is and then they fall into the trap because they think you know i can just i i'm good at figuring things out and so they see something i can figure this out and and then they just make assumptions and you know maybe in the past they've been able to make good assumptions and they've been close enough that they've had this uh you know they've grown this false confidence and now they're just making these they're just making these assumptions and assumptions it's just like you're you're going to set yourself up for defeat actually um you know thomas sol has written about this for decades now about you know intellectuals and so forth that you know they're they're very expert in their field but then they go outside of their field and and they get things horribly wrong but because they're such a you know an authority in in their respective field you know people go like oh wow you know this guy is really good and they know and they know how to talk about it and they know how to speak authoritatively as well but it's it's just not their field and so they they get things very very wrong and you know if someone were to go into their field and talk out of their ass you know like hollywood in a nutshell right right like the actors like amazing actors with you know all this experience and they just like great the greats of hollywood but then they're also vegan and it's like you have mastered this field but with nutrition and the scientific world it's like you're so off you know yeah well yeah and that's the thing you know they forget how much time and effort they put in to being great at their field and you know all these all these you know great intellectuals and so forth who have really really worked hard it's been decades mastering you know linguistics math arts whatever it is and then they go into you know sociopolitical you know endeavors and it's just like oh but no you haven't been doing that for 30 years you know and and if someone came into your field and started spouting off because oh well actually i read this one book one time and you know i know everything about it like you'd crush them you know and then you can step into someone else's field and be like i know everything it's you know it it you need to be able to have uh that that introspection and go like okay yeah this this isn't this isn't this isn't my field you know i understand that i mean it happens to every one of us because i'm i'm focused on what i'm interested in right doing the research and what i'm interested in but then things are happening in the world and i'm supposed to have an opinion on that and i'm like i i don't know i haven't been in that field long enough because i keep what happened to me and nutrition always in mind i mean i had by the time i had my phd i was still to a degree brainwashed i was still doing keto but not really fully carnivore you know and imagine a decade more than a decade in academic world in in nutrition and health and i was still so off so you know it's difficult and i understand why people are so frustrated and confused because they're busy they have jobs and families and they don't have all the time in the world to put into figuring out every single best solution in every single area of their life so it's a problem i get it but there's no lazy way around it if you have an issue you're struggling with it you have to put in the work you can just listen to one expert and believe everything that they say there's just no no two ways about it you have to put in the work in anything that you really want to become better at yeah and that's you know that's that was uh you know another question it's a quoting day for me but you know john stermill uh okay i love quotes by the way like you see there's like quote after good i get like haters sometimes it's like okay gandhi yeah yeah i love quote i think the power of words is so powerful absolutely you know and and there have been some you know amazing thinkers and and you know people out there i mean there's a reason we're still reading socrates and plato you know and homer because these things were fantastically done and and there's a lot we can learn from them um john stuart mill on liberty i believe he you know he said you know to paraphrase he said that you know if you only know your side of the argument then you don't know much if you haven't heard the other side of the argument the opposing argument from you know in its most convincing form you know from a professor who's espousing this belief you know if you're just hearing from your own professors and people that you want to listen to your your favorite youtube uh personalities and so forth you know if you're only hearing that then you don't necessarily even know the opposing argument if you haven't heard its most convincing form from its most convincing advocate then you don't even know what what the argument is and you know i try to not straw man people but that that's what it's called you know people say well this is their argument and this is why it's wrong okay maybe but is that actually their argument you know you're obviously not trying to convince people of this argument and so you're not going to give it in its most convincing form and so you know i encourage people to go out and and see and see for themselves you know go look at gundry's stuff go look at you know michael greger's stuff if you can and actually you can handle it i know you know and um he's you know he's a bit pretentious but you know you know aging a little bit quickly don't you think i think so too yeah yeah i think everybody agrees yeah yeah which is you know it's not like you know it's not like you know i get any enjoyment from saying that i think that the you know guy is doing his best and he's doing something that he believes in but i just think he's gotten it wrong and i think he's one of those guys that's in too deep at this point and yeah you know even if he realizes this is the wrong way to go he may not he may not take the out because his entire reputation and career is completely staked on this um but people should go and see what he has to say people should go and see uh what these proponents of a vegan diet have to say i mean i did i wanted to know you know if i was missing anything i wasn't but you know it was it was it's nice to know that and yeah and then see and see from them you know i did i did a a series of videos called things vegans say and it's just and i just played a recording of what you know these people are saying from their mouth i'm not saying what they're saying this is what they're saying and i'm going through why i disagree with that and the evidence against it um but i think that's very important i think it's very important for people to look at both sides of the argument and you know as you know people learn when they go to colleges like university of chicago if you have two competing theories you should be able to find some piece of evidence with which to test them against i think there's a lot out there a very simple one is do you have to take supplements you know if that's you can convince people who are um who are who's a vegan because they think that that's the first step towards health but then you have like a cultish kind of behavior in certain vegans a lot of them where it's more about the environment and the ethical treatment or humane you know treatment of animals and i see a lot of people you know commenting it's like i don't care if i'm deficient because i had a video that said 13 nutrient deficiencies on a vegan diet and that you know that blew the fuse of a lot of because it's not like that one i mean it was posted everywhere like multiple debunking videos where there was no debunking involved and so you'll see comments there of vegans who are like i don't care what the what the disney phd is saying the pretty disney page nice why disney i don't understand that i'm guessing but yeah oh oh okay maybe yeah disney world yeah that's if it's something else then it doesn't even make any sense but i think that maybe that's the connection right right that makes sense though you know i don't care what she says you know i i will always be a vegan you know because of the animals or whatever or you know and enjoy eating dead animals something to that effect it's always it's not about their health you know yeah and i think veganism as a movement never really started to improve anyone's health it was more about let's not kill the animals and then people were like well but my i'm deteriorating my health is going down it's like oh no don't worry it's actually healthy for you as well that kind of got lumped in later on you know yeah yeah especially with the advent of you know vilifying fat and cholesterol are saying oh this stuff causes heart disease it makes you fat that makes you fat you are what you eat you eat fat you get fat okay have i has anyone turned into a broccoli you know so yeah that that's pretty pretty dumb but you know yeah that's sort of when it came in like oh there's no fat in it and it helps you lose weight because there's fiber and it doesn't actually that was the argument it didn't have nutrients it didn't have much nutrition and so you should eat this because you're actually going to be losing weight every with every stick of celery that you eat um you know but it you know it did you know they were there you know the history of of you know eating plants was always people that couldn't afford it or they weren't allowed it because it kept you know it was proper nutrition it kept people strong made them grow big and they could you know buck the system you know and people didn't want that and then in the early 1800s they had different doctors and puritans in america trying to push a vegan diet because it suppressed the hormones it suppressed the people's natural libido and you know the fornication and masturbation was just was just the worst thing on earth seems like it was pretty good back then if that's the biggest concern that these people had you know and and um you know so you know so the you know seventh day adventist came up and just said yeah you shouldn't eat meat because you know it makes you you viral and healthy it's like that was that was the argument was to make you less healthy not that they necessarily thought about it in those terms but that is what it is and you know this is where kellogg's cereal comes from you know you know dr kellogg was a doctor and he he pushed uh for a vegan uh diet because he wanted to suppress uh people uh you know having sex and masturbating he's also you know he thought that masturbation was a sin and so he was like here have some cornflakes that'll fix it you know and and more than that he's the guy because he's also a congressman he's the guy who put who pushed through recommendations government uh official recommendations that young boys should be circumcised in america and this was had nothing to do with medi many medical reasons but that's what it was pitched as this is this is this is good for boys you know you don't have to you know clean it as well and so forth there's lower cancer rates and blah blah blah there are a lot higher cancer rates if you don't wash yourself basic hygiene yeah there's no difference um so he he's the one who pushed that through and this is why you know people in america started started uh circumcising their kids because it's you know it's it's harder to masturbate and have sex if you're if you're circumcised you know and then people figured out lube and then you know that was the end of the game but then they didn't actually say you know okay well you know we might as well just not you know you know uh circumcise his kid anymore because that was the only reason we did it and so this is still going on today people are still doing this to their children and they they don't need to it doesn't actually confer a benefit health-wise you know but that's where that's where it came from from that maniac and and veganism as well you know so it's like yeah like you say it wasn't it wasn't to bet her health that was that was a new introduction to the whole vegan movement um and you know you know hitler was a vegetarian for animal rights too not many people know that he loved animals didn't and yeah he loved the animals yeah yeah yeah and he was a vegetarian because of that i don't know if he's i don't think he's full vegan but he was vegetarian you know one of one of the classic examples of an angry vegan exactly you know and well i mean it could be that and the tertiary syphilis but like you know the guy was not right in the head and so you know i don't you know and uh you know the spinach i knew i used to learn something from this interview i learned a lot of things that's awesome i want to dig into that all this stuff especially the hitler and the circumcision i think people need to know about these things that's crazy you know yeah the history on these things is is not what you think i mean this is why it's important to study history to understand that most things that we take for granted are based in in very suspect uh origins and some of them just outright you know yeah like the circumcision like the you know seventh-day adventists and veganism and cholesterol you know that was a complete con and you know we have hard evidence of these sort of things this is this is a matter of record you know this isn't a guess this isn't an argument you don't need a study to show it that's it's historical fact and so yeah it's very important to to know these sorts of things and to know the history yeah yeah i agree yeah i agree i was gonna say i know you have a class to teach but if you had time could you tell us a bit about anti-aging and how how we're going to live forever oh yes so um i would urge everybody to look up dr aubry de gray he is now embroiled in some sexual harassment thing where he stepped down from the company he founded which is sense foundation s-e-n-s foundation this uh this foundation's main work and dr abre de gray's work is um reversing and curing and the aging process because the aging process is really a disease state so as you age as as you age you're basically losing your health and most people don't think of it that way most people's views regarding the aging process and death is that it's an inevitability but if you look into the research and there's a lot of research on aging and anti-aging you will notice that we have been able to reverse the aging process a lot at least in animal models and in humans we've been able to reverse hallmarks or parameters of aging to a certain extent and so clearly if we can reverse the aging process that means we can cure it and that means a lot of the conditions that come along with it like heart disease and cancer this is why we see them at a much higher frequency at an older age those things we don't have to worry about targeting them individually if we just look at the root cause which is the aging process and so why i do a carnivore diet and why i exercise and i work out and do all the things that i do is because mainly i don't want to die ever and i don't want to get old i want to just be as fit and healthy and do what i'm doing and just be happy for as long as humanly possible and so this is why within my youtube channel i did not set out to be on like a carnivore only i'm doing everything that i that i am passionate about of which anti-aging is a big thing so if you scroll down to my uh the last playlist on the homepage of my youtube channel you'll find a playlist all about anti-aging and so i'm constantly putting out content on that and i want people and i hope people start to recognize it we have so much control over the aging process like if you just look at vitamin d if your vitamin d levels are in the optimal range in the upper quartile you can add five years to your life just by checking your telomeres which is a it's like a test that you can do which is actually really cheap telling your length it can add the equivalent of five years to your life and that's just one nutrient that we're optimizing for so there's so much we can do and as more and more people start understanding that we can control it and we start looking at the aging process as a disease state then our government and the nih can actually allocate money and funds to actually research it seriously and stop wasting time and then we can develop even quicker uh and better you know treatments and according to a reader great voice actually started talking about um he says that in the next 15 years 15 that's one five there's a 50 50 chance that we can achieve something called escape velocity escape velocity is that point in time where if you choose to live forever you can because you would be doing all the things that medicine has to offer you to extend your life and just enough time so that medicine catches up and and gives us even newer treatments and modalities and so basically just hang in there there's a 50 50-50 chance in the next 15 years you can choose to live forever and i know what i'm gonna do so hopefully more people can you know put some more pressure so that we can do this thing god be cool so so you say vitamin d and getting levels up to up to what you need to do i think it's like 80 nanograms um dr rhonda patrick um actually has a video on that where she talks about it i'll send you the link of the video and maybe i can dig up the the article after this after i finish teaching yeah definitely and then yeah are there anything else that people can just do besides a carnivore diet and taking vitamin d or the things that do at home there's all sort of prescribed treatments there's a ton of things bioidentical hormone replacement nad plus injections um optimizing for nutrient status exercise is a big one too because it kills off your zombie cells that's another interesting topic they're called senescent cells which are cells that are not fully dead but they just hang in there instead of dying completely they just hang in there but they're not fully functional but the problem is that they're continuously pumping out inflammatory molecules into your system and so it's that inflammation that drives the aging process and so exercise has been shown to kill off those senescent cells you know so there is so much so much we can do and again check out my channel because i have tons of content on that and i know that no matter what i will always constantly be talking about that and putting content on that whatever i find so awesome well great well thank you so much uh for coming on i really appreciate you taking the time um can you tell us where we find you and and how we get all your stuff thank you anthony um you can find me on instagram uh at doctordr.sarahwithnh.zaldavar i'm sure i'm going to send you all this stuff so they'll be linked below um also my youtube channel dr sarah with nhs oliver facebook um tik tok i'm not really doing it much right now but i will i mean i do have it but it's old but i'm gonna update it soon yeah i'm sorry the same way i'm sort of fighting against that i'm certainly not gonna do any stupid ass dances but you know i you know put some little things on there just to you know yeah yeah yeah yeah so so yeah i mean all the places but mainly it's youtube and instagram right now if you really want to be up to date with what i'm doing perfect okay great we'll put all that in the show notes and um and then and any sort of some of the studies and things like that you want to send the way away to i'll put those in the show notes as well for people to see all right great doctors oliver thank you so much for joining me it was a lovely talk really appreciate it thank you so much dr chafee and i will see you soon thank you everyone bye