UK Veterinarian: Our Nutritional Guidelines Are CORRUPT! | Dr. Roger Meacock

the students come out with their 100 Grand worth of debt after 5 years of study having been told that this is the right way to feed and you know they they believe it because if you don't believe what you've been taught what you spent 100 Grand on the smaller we we look down the more we lose of the bigger picture and I think that's where you know medicine human and Veterinary and science generally has gone and it's become chasing the next research dollar and as you say not observing what goes on and saying okay so this is what we this is this is the observation therefore the theory has got to fit the observation it's like well this is the theory so how do we do the experiment to prove it and and this is what nutrition is you know certainly on the veter side I'm sure on the human side is is based almost entirely on Welcome to the plant-free MD podcast with Dr Anthony chaffy where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically hello everyone thank you for joining me uh for another episode of the planfree MD podcast I'm your host Dr Anthony chaffy and today I have a very special guest uh Dr Roger Miko who is a a veterinarian who is kind enough to give us his insights on uh optimal food for both humans and animals as he as he sees it Roger thank you so much for coming on thanks uh thanks Dr chaffy that's absolutely brilliant you know I've been I was aware I was a heavy meat eater before I saw you on YouTube and uh it never OCC that maybe humans should be carnivals and then I saw your video on um planted trying to kill you and the title absolutely grabbed me so you're great title there and and I watched it and I thought this makes so much more sense um and as a vet I've been you know promoting our pet carnivals our dogs and cats cuz that's what they are they're not omnivos they are absolutely carnivals um you know I've been promoting the raw meaty bones diet for them for the last 25 years and actually having then switched to Carnival myself and listen to fewo your podcast it made me so much more aware of how we're doing dogs and cats so badly by predominantly feeding them plant-based Foods you know with the Kibbles especially um but even you know the raw you know there the whole movement into raw feeding um but it's such a wide encompassing term now that we've you know something the UK there's something like 90 different commercial companies all you know all doing raw and you think well you know raw meat and Bone what how can you get variations on that um but they do and you know there's certain of them will be will'll be putting plant material into it because it's a cheaper ingredient to bulk it up and and all the rest of it and they're pre- grinding it which is another problem that we can talk about as well because the physical um aspect of the food is is really important too um and I just became really conscious having sort of been Carnival myself now for a few months of of how I feel when I jump off you know fall off the wagon on very rarely now but to begin with I did and um it was interesting because I assumed honey was okay to begin with because it's natural and um and all of a sudden and I was mixing into a bit into some yogurt and um after a while I sudden you know one one one teaspoonful became two and I suddenly it occurred to me do you know what this is and I then I think I heard your your podcast on on honey specifically and I thought oh no I really like that one and um but but but I got it you know and I and I've stopped stopped overnight and um and I'm conscious that on the on the odd day where you know you can't avoid it and you go out to dinner or something then it's it's a little bit more of an awkward situation just to sort leave or not have any veg so but but then the next day I don't feel bad but I don't feel right and it's a subtle difference and I just made me so much more conscious of of the harm that we're doing to our pet dogs and cats by by not feeding them as proper species a total in appropriate diet and and and that's you know I I've become suppose I'd be regarded as fairly hardcore now in terms of the even the raw feeding side um but but it is it's a major it's a major issue that I can see and you know it's I think I think we need we need to sort of get it out there and and and really make more of an issue of it so people realize because everybody's doing what what they think they should be doing and and to be fair to the vets you know that they didn't go to vet school to and I'm sure the you know the doctors are the same you didn't go to med school to to to to intend to harm anybody or do you know do any any harm but just the way that you nutrition research has been captured and there's even contracts between the pet food manufacturers and the vet schools as to who's allowed to speak to the students um and what they're allowed to say that you know the the students come out with their hundred Grands worth of debt after five years of study having been told that this is the right way to feed and you know they they believe it because if you don't believe what you've been taught what you spent 100 Grand on MH and so and and then so much financial support goes into CPD and conferences and you know and and supporting all the sales stuff on in the practices so you know no vets and no doctors are are deliberately setting out to harm any of their patients but the flip side is that they're not willing to really look at it critically and assess the situation to recognize that you know what you are what you eat you know food be your medicine medicine be your food all these ancient wisdoms that have been forgotten and I think I read somewhere only humans are are clever enough to make our own food stupid enough to eat it and I think there's another bit to that which is an arrogant enough to think that we can outdo nature yeah definitely and I think that we were talking you know a bit off air but you know we were talking about people orchestrating things and pulling strings and trying to manipulate things and and there's another old say that goes you're so sharp you'll cut yourself think you're so brilliant you're so smart and you want to manipulate things and and it's it's just going to backfire it's going to hurt you what naturalists did what scientists did what what real scientists of the world did is they observed nature and they studied nature and they saw how does this work how do I fit in here and what are some of the laws and the rules that work on the in the world that I live in you know instead of saying I've mastered this and now I can control it that's that's hubris that's going to end up biting you in the ass and so you know what what is the smartest thing to do is look at this see how the system works and how you can best fit into it and and we're not doing that anymore we're trying to we're trying to change it manipulate it and make it into our own image and that's not going to work it's it's not going to work no now I think wasn't it Richard Ferman who said if anybody tells you they understand quantum physics they don't um and and the same is true for nutrition you know I think there is so much more to it I mean I know when you've sort of recently qualified maybe you've been out out in the wide world a year or two years you you probably think you know quite a lot and then 25 30 years on you go I may have thought I I knew 95 % of what I needed to know back then but actually now I realize I think if we know half a percent of what there is to know that's probably a gross exaggeration and there's aspects to nutrition that I I'm going to get your your view on this you know obviously everything's quoted in terms of fats proteins carbohydrates and then you've got micronutrients which are all sort of mushed in together primarily looking at the minerals but they don't even consider all 84 of them they look at just a few and and and then and maybe and some vitamins and yet I'm thinking well actually if I'm eating meat it must have some ATP some nadh you know all these all these other microchemicals that we know are a part of of biochemistry and surely they have some sort of nutritional and enzymes they know they have benefits to us as well um I mean one of the things I do differently to you is I I have raw dairy um so I've got a farmer who who doesn't pasturize milk and he's really knowledgeable about his milk and um you know he says you know the milk actually has enzymes in there you know for for for metabolizing lactose if if you need it and actually most mil calories are actually a protein reaction and if you got A2 milk which you know different type of casing then then most people can actually drink that okay but if they go and you know and raw milk is okay but and pasteurization is is is actually a big problem um so you know we sort of the whole of nutrition is is skewed by how it tries to break down and reduce everything to these little compartments and we've got so good at sort of reductionist thinking that we can understand what we think is a very small aspect of of something you know a biochemical pathway and actually we've forgotten how it fits into the rest of the body and you know the smaller we we look down the more we lose of the bigger picture and I think that's where you know medicine human and Veterinary and and science generally has gone and it's become chasing the next research dollar and as you say not not observing what goes on and saying okay so this is what we this is this is the observation therefore the theory has got to fit observation it's like well this is the theory so how do we do the experiment to prove it and and this is what nutrition is you know certainly on the veter side I'm sure on the human side is is based almost entirely on and they won't do the basic control of EX um comparing the ancestral you know diet of raw meat and bones versus kibble and yet you know all people turn around to me and go well you've got to prove your raw meaty bones is is true and going well I I rest you know I put into into into the into the witness stand you know millions of years you know kibble started with a chat called um Sprat and and CRS uh who who decided to have a dog show to to promote the kibble and that started in the 1860s so you know we've got 160 years of commercial pet food driven by a profit on based on cheap you know ingredients that cause a problem versus millions of years and yet I'm supposed I'm supposed to prove my my bit and it's like I don't think so you know it's you've got to prove that you know that the way science works is the one that comes along is got to prove that it's better than what came before and if you don't do that and you're not prepared to do that then that actually tells me how how how little confidence you know um and I suspect it's a bit like you know smoking if back in the day they knew how harmful it was and just didn't and they' done the research and didn't want to publish it and I'm sure the same has been done um on the you know on the dog and Cat's side and just I mean I could I could keep on going forever but there just just how they you know that the trials they do for pet food is you wouldn't believe it Anthony it's like they've got to start with a minimum of eight dogs they can feed the food ad lib or according to energy requirements and only last 26 weeks so six months um and only six out of the eight dogs have got to complete the trial um they're not allowed to lose more than 10 or 15% of body weight but they can put on as much as they like um and then we wonder why there's obesity is is the main Pro you know a huge problem in breny medicine um and it it you know how how can you how can you feed something for six months they've got to be a year old so so a year old dog is is going to have very different requirements from a 14 15 year old dog not that many of them are getting there these days um but but that is you know they're not they're not comparable and if they're only looking at proteins carbs and and carbohydrates and the fact that there's no d requirement for carbohydrates is just totally o overlooked um so you know that and then this allows them to call a pet food complete well it's it's not complete it's only got some of them only got like 4% animal derivatives which could be any sort of rendered God knows what from from a carcass that didn't go into the human food chain so I mean it just you know you just get exasperated that it's reached such a level you know you know it is a billion doll pet food fraud and I actually got a friend uh who's a vet in Australia Tom Londale has written a book called billion dollar pet food fraud and um and we trying to he he you know he stands for election for the Royal College elections every year and I I I nominate him I'm one of the nominees for for him and um you know we've been up to the Royal College to have meetings with the president and say look this is a problem with pet foods you know the veteranary profession is on board with it we're colluding we're ignoring the harm that the pet food does and um and Tom stands for his election so he gets you know probably three to 400 votes a year which isn't a huge number he's not you know he's not threatening to get on Council but whenever he's asked any questions in advance he you know he's a one trip Pony everything gets brought back to the harm of of done by pet food so that we can always say whoever votes for him is is voting because of the harm that the pet foods are doing and yet when we spoke to one of the presidents he said well if we put a hamster up they'd get 400 votes and you go you rude Git You know that is you know you've got 400 professional vets who are absolutely unequivocally saying that they can see a harm caused by pet food and the RO college is refusing to do anything to you know even to initiate a proper trial um and they're quite happy for the ventage profession to carry on selling food that's that's marketed as complete or even prescription when it hasn't even got any prescription anything in it hey guys just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at carnivore bar I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to to just eat meat for those times that you're out hiking road tripping or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat fat and salt if you want it the carnivore bar is a great option so I like this product not because it's just pure meat but also because I want the carnivore Market to thrive as well and the more we support meat only products the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream so if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off which also applies to subscriptions giving you 25% % off total all right thanks guys and yet there was a study done it was only a few years ago where something like I think there's less than 40% of of the foods actually met the minimum nutritional requirements and even some of the so-called hypoallergenic diets had proteins that weren't supposed to be there in there and yet it hasn't changed the behavior the venue of the vet practices you know they'll still push it and sell it and you know then not trying to do any harms I said before but unfortunately you know what's the definition of a poison is it something that kills you in 5 minutes or is it something that caus major major health issues in 10 years um and with with cancer hugely on the rise in dogs these days then you know the the longevity is is coming down the diseases are going up the chronic diseases are going up um and it you know it is a welfare problem as as far as I'm concerned but um and you know owners want to be able to trust their vet you know and for 99 times out 100 they can you know most of them are brilliant you know they'll they'll know all the all the disease Pathways and they'll know what the drugs do and they'd be brilliant surgeons and all the rest of it but you know when the nutrition is wrong and it's so fundamental to the whole of Health it it's it's a major it's a major thing to be wrong on yeah definitely um well yeah it sort of sounds like you know the the president of college would almost have to be complicit at all this and and still want all that funding that comes in from the pet food companies and but um you know it may not do anything but you know possibly like a petition you know getting thousands of people to sign to say hey no we want you to look into this might hold a bit more weight but it's a bit it is a bit sad you have this corporate capture they have they've got control over all the different Industries and um and then people just don't don't realize it you know like I I totally agree with you when you said that you have to the the new kid on the block has to prove themselves you know they're trying to pretend as if you're eating vegetables and humans and eating kibble in in dogs and cats like that's that's the established scientifically based scientifically evidenced uh way of eating where it's all this meat oh you have to prove that it's like no no sorry we've been doing doing that forever that's established we know that's fine we know that's healthy we've been doing that forever this is new this is brand new you have to prove this you know you're the guys who have to have to show some evidence of course they're not and that's why they're they're trying to to shift the argument and and put it on you put you on the defensive so that they don't actually have to show their evidence right yeah so that they don't have to say like well this is this is this shows that this is better this shows that this is uh an improvement this shows that this is very safe and effective um they're saying no no no no you have to prove that no I don't no no you do we've always done this now You' come in and changeed something things are worse and and you're trying to say that it's it's not your fault okay no you have to prove that or some vets that I've spoken to and I'm sure they're fresh out of the out of the gate um from vet school and I'm sure this came straight from veterinary school because I heard this sort of regurgitated was that um the the increased prevalence of diseases in pets is because of these damn puppy mills and they're just intensively breeding and all these sorts of things when I was like isn't golden retriever a pure breed already isn't is that already as intensively bred as you can get yeah I mean I mean it is criminal that is to say you know there is a tendency to try and blame things on genetics and there was actually two Germans who did um a study into hip displasia in dogs and you know you can imagine the Germans were very strict about making sure that they you know they follow they bred properly you followed lines did hip scoring you can do x-rays when when dogs sort of a year old to see how the joints are forming and score them and then you make sure you only use good supposedly good dogs with with other you know with others to to make sure you keep the line straight and they basically concluded that um got long short They concluded that that the genetics had very little of anything to do with it it was never proven that it was genes based but they absolutely provide said that it was kibble um that c that was the main cause nutritional deficiencies of feeding kibble were the problems and then a few years later they widened it to say it wasn't just hyp displasia but it was all Orthopedic developmental diseases were caused by Kibbles and of course what happens is the Breeders they feed a certain way and then when somebody picks up up they tell them how they feed them and and they keep in contact and so what tends to happen is the feeding remains consistent down the lines but actually and then they blame it on the genetics and and it's not it's it's you know there's a whole thing of epigenetics around it as well and there was a chap called pottinger who did a study on cats I'm sure you're aware of that he treated he he he did it with 900 cats I think over 10 years and what and he fed one group of them you know raw raw um raw meat and and also milk and for the the other group Kibbles and you know the health deteriorated rapidly in the group that were fed um the the Kibbles and and maintained uh in in the in the raw meat and milkfed cats but interestingly then they he tried to swap after a few you know a couple of generations he tried to swap them back and what he found was that there was still deteriorations in the third generation having being on the you know derived from from the the kibble fed cats but swapped to to the proper diet there was still problems three three generations down you know when we look at it from The Human Side I think there was a study done wasn't with the Spartan where they they gave it to some mice and they found that it was one one exposure respond aim um cause depression in the third generation down and um so you've you know which shows that you know this generational thing happens in humans as well so you know with with dogs and animals we've got a much shorter generational Gap because you know because animals die die at younger ages and so what we're seeing in the animal kingdom where you know there is deterioration through disease and ill health and all the rest of it as a result of of poor feeding you know we that's what we're storing up for you know for humans and you know it's probably already coming through but the next couple of generations if they carry on with these high sugar highly processed foods you know we're we're going to be breeding epigenetic nutritional problems that even if they swap back to a proper species appropriate diet um you know they're going to be causing they're still going to be having problems um you know for a few generations to to to to reverse all the PO feeding and practices that we've had up to now so you know this isn't you know it's not as simple as as you change diet and you immediately become 100% well again you know that there are long-term problems um you know and certainly you see it people have been saying I've been raw feeding my dog for you know for for for six months or a couple of years and you know I'm still got an itchy dog and you go well you know you're doing it right but you know or are you feeding plants still um and if you know because sometimes it doesn't just come right that quickly you will get some some um individuals who respond within a couple of weeks but there are other individuals where it will take months and then there are others I'm sure where it will take Generations of correct feeding to fully get back to the best possible Optimum Health that is that is possible yeah absolutely and yeah and that's something I don't think we we fully grasp I love the pot Anders cat experiment because that that just sort illustrates a the importance of proper nutrition even if it's just slightly off this can even if it doesn't kill you this has significant Health ramifications not only to you as the individual but to to the next generation and the Next Generation and further Generations down the track and then very interestingly you fix the you fix the diet but there's knock on effects going down the chain um I think with bpas like the different weird Plastics that can be um hormonally disruptive they did some studies in mice as well that that female mice exposed to bpas um it stays in your body for a long time and then they the children you know their the Next Generation they had smaller gonad so the hypogonadism so smaller penises and um and then the second generation had a CH so no exposure in the in the second generation and the third generation still had the the effects and it was until the fourth generation that they they came away from that and so you we have we have we don't have a great understanding or at least the general population doesn't have a great understanding we're starting to learn this and you know uh having these conversations to get that message out there but as a population we don't really understand how how massive an effect what we do now and what our parents did and their parents did big of a role that can have on us and our kids and their kids and their kids so you know I'm doing this now I'm being as healthy as I can be I plan on having kids you know and and both me and my wife will be carnivores and we'll raise our kids carnivores and they're going to be better off than than we were but their kids are going to be better off than they were and their kids are going to be better off than they were and then eventually we'll get back to normal Humanity again and um and that'll be great but you know it just go was a show back with something you said before which was you know it you you come out and you think you know so much and then 25 years in the game you're like w maybe I don't didn't know all that much um you know it's uh it it we you have to understand it that that there's so much we don't know and you one of my favorite quotes from Thomas S is um it takes a lot of knowledge to understand just how ignorant you are and so you have to you have to learn so much and understand so much so that you can finally peek over this tiny little mole hill of knowledge that you've attained so you can look at a vast mountain range of things you have no clue about and and you are not going to to you can start exploring them and looking at them but you will never press Every Mountain you just won't no one can you know the smartest most brilliant most learned person in human history never knew even 1% of the totality of human knowledge it's not possible and the totality of human knowledge is nothing compared to what's available and so we need to recognize that and we need to understand and have a bit of humility about this um it was a great Mark Twain quote and as I get older I appreciate Twain a lot more and I think my dad used quotes of Twains against me as a kid and so I didn't like him because of that um but one of these quotes that um that uh he said was sort of in those lines about you know learning as you grow older he said you know when I was a teenager you know I thought my dad was just the the dumbest person on earth didn't know anything and then when I when I turned you know became an adult I I was really impressed by how much he learned how much smarter he got you know oh absolutely and and there so many different ramifications I mean one of the things that that that that I'm interest get get get your thoughts on on this is you know the way we bring up our animals how they have an an impact on our food because obviously there's this whole grass-fed versus grain fed feed lot you know in terms of our food but it's interesting I when John my my my friendly um good friend um D Dairy Farmer who does all the raw milk he no longer feeds his cattle grain yeah and when he stopped feeding them grain they blanked him for six months they used to come into the Parlor obviously every certain time every day they got into the habit of it and when he stopped feeding them paror feed which was basically a hard feed all the grain feed they wouldn't come in he'd have to go get them and for 6 months they were he said I could tell they they they they were angry with me for not feeding their addiction and yet you wouldn't have thought that cattle being herbivores would be addicted to grains in in that way because it is a plant food you wouldn't think that that would happen um and so it was absolutely fascinating never occurred to me that that might even occur um and so I think you know obviously all these cows now live at grass and and he gives them sort of hey haage during the during the winter um but consequently his yields are down you know he sort of probably averages around 2,000 lers of cow per lactation whereas now B commercial Farms they're up around 10,000 liters of cow um so you know they're on a metabolic knife edge to get them up there and you think you know what is what what does that H affect have obviously you know for the milk and because obviously nutrition goes from the cows into the milk you know what effect does that have on the Cales for the Next Generation because you've got that whole neutri nutriomics and um met metabonomics and things that that that link DNA expression to to food and and development as well um and then yeah and then obviously what what effect does that have on on on you know the on the beef that we eat because it's interesting some of the dogs if they're itchy and and it gets identified they think chicken is a problem that they're allergic to and they think that that's because well they've been they've been on kibble so they think it's a grain problem and then they swap to to the raw meaty bones and then they have problems with chicken and they think it's because the chicken are are grain Fed so it's interesting to say get your idea what you think where you you know how much do does the food that we eat how they're fed does that affect the quality of the meat and obviously therefore therefore us oh I think it does um it the question is how much um most people seem to do fine from they want to check their nutrients and vitamins and minerals and hormones and things like that and just their General Health they seem to do really well just on normal meat and and obviously of course the issue is uh Supply and access and so if you if you don't have access to the highest quality grass-fed and finish then then you don't but you know any you know the the the grain finish and things like that are still a lot better than any plant you're going to eat certainly and and much better than most Alternatives even for meat as far as the or grain fed cows and so if you look at the the micronutrients and this this is probably something you know more about than I do but you know I've Just Seen different regenerative armers talk about their their beef and how they them tested and they can have four or five times the number of micronutrients um that that normal you know store-bought beef would have brain beef would have and so that's an objective difference right and then there are there are some studies that I've seen discussed where they they grain feed like intensively so like a high migrain um percentage for three months after about three months they run out Omega-3s they're just sort of all Omega sixes at that point so you know you need Omega-3s you need the dhas and epas and and um so are we are we lacking on that are we lacking on some of the micronutrients most people seem to do very well with just store bought meat but I think there is an objective difference and I when I got just a grass-fed and finish cow and I got an older cow which I think was the best tasting meat that I've ever had in my life it was so it was wasn't wasn't gy but it was just a stronger beef flavor it just tasted more steak it was just a more steak flavor to it and it was amazing I absolutely loved it and the fat was just dark yellow and it tasted amazing and instead of feeling sort of tired and just sort of oh yeah drowsy go to bed I was like superch charged I just wanted to go and just you know just beat a gazelle to death you know I just felt amazing you know if you have you have you noticed if you feeding if you're cooking something grass-fed State compared to something that isn't it actually smells different does when it's cooking it almost SM you can almost smell as an element of almost sweetness about about it that um that is that is different so there is definitely a difference there and of course you know with BC in the UK in the 1990s I mean it always struck me as absolutely stupid because what they did was they said because you didn't get BSC in cattle under something like three years old therefore you can eat cows under three you know you can eat beef from from cattle under three years old and and you can't eat older ones and at the time I remember thinking I'd rather have meat from a six-year-old that hadn't expressed it than have than have meat from from from a younger one that hasn't had the opportunity and and and that's you know I remember at the time thinking that was really stupid but but that's how that you know once once people start thinking wrongly it sort of manifests and goes across the board um and it's almost like well if we don't see it it can't be there and you go well that's what sort of attitude that came from you know kid head in the sand attitude you know where and yet these are adults who are supposedly the chief science officers at the time saying you know basically using that sort of reasoning and logic to to to to get you know govern the whole food chain and then we briefly mention you know we've got the MRNA platform potentially there are there is have been some papers to show that it can it can promote pry on formation um and so my you know my concern is if if mRNA um products get used in our food producing animals you know are we are we going to have that situation where there will be prons in the meat that we eat and it will be from animals which haven't had time to express the problem um I you know and that's that you know that's that's a future concern that I have had and I've actually written to the veterinary medicines directive in the UK with an open letter that I put together with a a scientist called Dr Kevin mccan um and and I know there's some you know there's uh Dr Max thorn thornsbury in the US he co-signed the letter and he's concerned about about that potential um in in you know cattle Health later on and you know we we just don't know you know the time isn't being given sufficient time there is one product that has been licensed in pigs so far called squib and it was licensed in 2018 and what they basically do is say for example there's an outbreak of swine flu on on a pig farm so the Vets will go along and they'll swab it they'll send the swab off to a lab the lab will identify the pathogen they will sequence it choose a gene of of interest and then they'll make up an an mRNA product which will get the body to manufacture this protein of interest and then they'll send that mRNA product back to the farmer to to inject into the pigs and that whole process takes 8 to 12 weeks so there is no way of checking whether it's safe and there might be a different product going to different farm so it makes pharmaco vigilance almost impossible because you might only have a problem with one you know with one Farm if the Protein that's been chosen is progenic you you know you might be having you know they there isn't there's no way to identify easily that there's a problem with the product so you know I'm I'm concerned about where you know Veterinary um medicine is going and also the pressure we're putting on our you know on on the animals in terms of production um and all the rest of it so you know I think I think you know we need to be as carnivores we need to be wary of or aware of what's happening in in our food sources um because you know that's that that is will ultimately have have impacts on on our health potentially now and potentially in the future yes definitely and and that's what we need to get very active and vocal and people you writing their politicians and Congress people and MPS and things like that and saying hey we don't we don't want this here we don't want this in our food supply we don't want just random chemicals being you know given to our animals that haven't had rigorous Decades of testing uh to know that it's safe we were saying when we were when we were off camera that this there's a potential that some of these these prons could potentially potentially man-made prons could um you for people that don't don't understand prons things like mad cow disease or um these other sorts of issues that that get into the body these pry proteins is sort of almost like the Borg from Star Trek where they sort of turn other proteins into copies of themselves and just multiply rapidly and take over an entire nervous system and you die and it's it's very very serious we we still screen for people people uh for CR Yakov disease uh neurosurgery we have to have every single patient that's going to get uh going to get uh operated on in our Neurosurgical program or Department gets gets screened for CR cruell yako and so it's h it's something that is extremely harmful and so you know you don't want this right and it's not like this is this is a bacteria that you can just take an antibiotic for we don't have a cure for this you get this you're going to be trouble um and you were saying that this could potentially even get into the ground and and that the roots of plants can actually potentially uptake this and get into the leaves so that's so so the vegans aren't safe either you know and the omnivores aren't safe either and then you obviously animals that eat that as well and just spreads and then you've got an Unholy situation there where this is this is actually spread throughout the entire ecosystem in the food chain um in the wild as well as in our our livestock and that would obviously be devastating to the planet in general yeah absolutely I mean one of the things that's sort of on the rise in the US is chronic wasting disease which is a problem with deer so you know if if people are out there hunting to to to put meat on the table themselves you know be be careful what your you know see check to see what your chronic wasting disease situation is in the area where you're going to be hunting because you don't want to there there's no proof as yet yet that it can cross the species barrier not all prons will will you know alarm anybody totally unnecessarily but you know not all um um PR diseases will cross species barriers but obviously the more that there are and the more that you know products are going into use that could could trigger it the more the greater the risk you could end up with with a super prion that does cross all species barriers without risk but as you're saying you know they found that if if prons are get into the soil whether it's through slurry fertilizer or or or some other way you know the they plant roots can uptake these prons from the soil and redistribute them potentially into into edible parts of the plant so as you say it's you know there will be no safety there um for for anybody so it's you know this is this is something we all need to be aware of you our food list if you don't eat you don't live it's pretty simple yeah was it and that that was something i' that I'd seen peripherally the this weird wasting disease in in Deer and first of all uh can you tell us a bit more about that what the hell that is and also I had heard that Mark Zuckerberg for some reason had just decided to go and inoculate you'll sp100 million dollars or something like that inoculating wild deer for some damn reason then all of a sudden there's this weird disease popping up do you know a bit about that there's a yeah a few people have have looked at that coincidence um and put a question mark over it but yeah I mean basically you know that it is quite not you know there's a neurological disease of of deer it is spreading quite quite rapidly um there have been situations where you know where Jabs have have caused Mis protein misfolding and as you say it's it's like if remember at school we did a a c you know Crystal you put a seed into a CA Crystal into a strong ionic solution and and the the sea the crystal just grew well they know that's basically what's happening with these proteins they they're much more stable in a beta plated sheet form to put some science onto it and um you know and and having it having one there induces the others around them to to to to go into that more stable form as well so you get this this spread of of protein misfolding so you know it's it's a problem and it it's not easy they're not easily destroyed and I'm sure you're aware that um the reason why they screen the neurological patients now for surgery is there was a situation where somebody where whether they believe there was a transfer of prion on the surgical instrumentation from one patient to another even though the you know all the all the all the equipment have been properly um UT caved and sterilized so you know these aren't very easily got rid of they are um remarkably indestructible I think was a phrase I once saw about them so you know we've you know it's it's an important issue you know um we we've got to sort of think about you know that this sort of Whole Food um you know the veterinary and medical Fields sort of you know we we overlap at that food at that food point right yeah definitely and yeah when we when we have a a suspected cjd case um or we can't get proof of this and we have to hold the that equipment uh we can't use it we can't touch it so we have have a whole surgical set that just has to sit there um or if it's it's the middle of the night and you have someone who needs an emergency surgery and you can't get next to can you can't get you can't ask them the uh you know the question you need to um what you really should do the only thing that's ethical to do is just do the damn surgery and then figure it out later and just hold that stuff to the side and um and get it cleared or thrown away because if you don't know then you have to throw this stuff away and obviously that's expensive very expensive for some of this stuff but um you know it's a person's life right and so otherwise you have to use hand hand drills so hand tools and and these things suck you know like they disposable ones I mean they're just awful so you're you're there just just hand cranking this thing and it's getting stuck I mean I remember the first case I did like this it was 3 o00 in the morning we couldn't get any next to Kin no one was answering their phone it was just like how how do you not care that your your wife is you know dying in the hospital right now like answer the goddamn phone and um and kids everything like that and so just trying to we had we had they wouldn't let us use the hospital just like no you can't use the actual nor noral gear and so I had to like hand crank Dr and it was the worst thing I've ever seen it wasn't even like a you had like a handle it was like this little twisty thing on the side and it just kept getting stuck I just kept C and I'm not I'm not a weak guy you it's like you know if I'm struggling with this the other people are are going to have a worse time and I'm just just trying to just crank through and crank through I kept getting stuck kept getting jammed and uh it was actually a piece of garbage and it ended up making the the surgery take far longer far longer than it should I mean this is this an emergency case yeah yeah right time is of the essence exactly you know you have someone you know that that's hydris they need a bur they need a um you know a drain to drain off that fluid or you need to do craniotomy I mean you do you do a craniotomy and you've got to use wires and do little jigs saw jiggly saw sort of thing um okay you know but I mean how much extra time time are you taking when this is a Time critical operation and that that person's going to die in a certain period of time and so and you you can't really say that you're going to get it open in time and so um yeah it's it's definitely they take it very seriously anyone throw all that out maybe that person was a carnival because one of the things that we certainly see is difference in bone densities um and I think is it certainly you know in dogs if they're not crunching up the bones and and actually using their teeth and jaws and and putting that pressure through there then then it changes you know the periodontal disease the the the crookedness of teeth from you know and that is there is an element of genetics with that one in terms of how some of the noses have been drastically shortened but um but but certainly you know bone dens and facial structure is absolutely determined by things like like diet and and and the proper you know the physical aspect of the diet which is one of the reasons why I hate all these pre-round Pet Foods because you know part of the function of of eating for dogs and cats is that the crunching of the bone and the pulling of the meat off the bone actually has a physical function in keeping the teeth clean and that gum tooth margin strong because as you know if if if if if it's not strong then you can still even though the teeth might look quite clean and and dog you know people shouldn't have to be brushing dog's teeth it's ridiculous diet does it if it's done properly um but if if if if they're not crunching and using their teeth properly um by having proper bones to do that then what happens is the gum tooth margin becomes weak and you can get ulceration below the gum line and then bacteria can get into those pockets and then into the bloodstream and then you get an immune system that's continually having to battle that you know that infection that's getting in and you can get bacterial endocarditis and things in serious situations where you know where you know also in the Kibbles where the teeth really get furred up and look absolutely horrendous um but but it you know the physical aspect of the raw diet is really important from that point of view um and that's you know again that's one of the ways in which you know the raw feeding on on the veter side has gone wrong you know they've gone more towards pre grinding instead of going well actually you don't you want to feed it in raw meaty bone lumps um and the other aspect of that one of the big things that that the raw food gets attacked from is bacterial contamination and oh you're can all get salmon out an eoline yet so many dogs are being fed raw and the aren't all dropping like flies um but actually what happens is once if there if you can imagine a chicken and there's some contamination on the outside maybe there is some salmon or campala Bor or something on the outside then it if you feed it as a lump I mean if I give my my ter if I give him a drumstick he basically crunches it up and he swallows it um with the meat round the bone so the meat protects the esophagus um as the as the bone goes down to the stomach but if there's any contamination on the outside of that meat the first thing that his stomach acid hits is the bacteria so it kills off the bacteria first um and then it dissolves the little bits of the bone so that gets rid of all the any short sharp points because they get dissolved first and then the and then the meat and everything afters but you know if if everything's being M pre ground and mixed in together all the bacteria goes into the middle of of that bolus of of food and then if it's being mixed with plant material as well you've got this environment within the stomach that's supposed to be very very acidic that will kill all these bacteria and dissolve the bone and it's been neutralized before it hits the bacteria or and also because of plant material there um and and so you know we're not actually allowing the stomach to do its proper job in the right order um and you know that's you know that's one of the problems I have with you know with with the pregg ground stuff um you know it's and and that's how you know the raw feeders get attacked is or you're going to cause human health problems by by feeding this to the dog so it's important that we that we get this right because otherwise you know there is going to be problems for for for raw feeding down down the road and you know they'll use whatever they can to um to try and attack that and I think people forget they think oh okay stomach acid oh is ph1 or two or three or something is you know so it's it's only what's one between friends and you go actually do you know what the pH is a logarithmic scale that's the difference between 10 100 and a thousand it's not one two three and actually that neutralization of that acid is actually really crucial to the digestion and then if you say you know plants will have digestion inhibit is an interference within them as well chemicals the anti-nutrients within them as well and then we wonder why why why we're getting dogs that are raw rawfed given that broad term and still having problems and it's like well because you're not raw feeding properly there's good and bad ways to do everything yeah and I think that's a very good point there there are it's getting better at least here in Australia as as much as there's a vegan push for humans um they do have raw meat available in the stores but you're right it's just a ground up sort of package but then you can find sometimes they'll have like meat bones and things like that for dogs and sort of scraps on it and so we try to get those as well but that that's one thing I spoken to some people here and they have their pets and you know I obviously tell them it's like hey look we're supposed to eat meat dogs are supposed to eat meat my my friends dogs tend to like me more than them I know know I think they smell the meat on me and be like I can go hunting with this guy this guy this guy has this guy has meat I can get meat this guy let's go and then I sort of share the meat and things like that with them so um but I had um good friend of mine uh was saying that that uh their dog and they were they're all for giving them meat but his vet said well yeah they like meat but you should save that don't give them meat because if they ever get sick and they need a pill then you want something like a treat what they really like so you put that in the meat and then then you use the meat so don't give it meat other times just use it as as a spare treat so so don't give them meat to make them healthy give them things that are going to be substandard so they get sick so when they get sick you can use the meat to give them the pill as opposed to just giving them meat and then having them not get sick but they said that they needed broccoli they you had to give dogs broccoli and whole vegetables what what say you to the whole whole broccoli Diet for dogs and cats I mean as you know I mean there there are there are some posit you know they've I've identified certain micronutrients within plants that can have some positive benefits if you look at them just on their own but they forget that the antinutrients I mean one of the big ones I know has come up and I think about was you know is oxalates and one of the problems we get with certainly with cats is is kidney stones and kidney failure um and certainly right o oxalates will will cause cause stones in the in the urinary tract and they will even seed the struvite crystals so even if they're not you know even if even if they're not not there as as the as the whole Stone they they will help to seed other other Stones causing it so you know it it you know we are getting other problems as a result of feeding plants within that and and again it's this whole myth about roughage oh you've got to give them you've got to give them um plant material because because they need roughage it's so actually the opposite is true because once you swap a dog from kibble onto onto the raw meaty bone proper raw meaty bones diet then actually what happens is the volume that comes out the back end goes down to about third of what it previously was which shows how much is indigestible and unsolid and and again this causes a problem with site diversion here causes problems in the Parks you know we see these lumps of dog poo sitting on the ground and the reason why it's because it's all plant-based so it's insoluble indigestible fiber that that the dogs can't digest they get no benefit from it nutritionally and then it so it bulks everything up comes out the back end and just sits there and even the insects can't do it's that toxic um and and so youve then you've got a you've got a health hazard problem in the par but coming back to the dogs you know once you're on the proper diet you know the feeding of them is is is some very basic easy rules because when when when the volume goes down like that and there's bone in it as well you know that they have to strain a little bit to get it out but if you think back to the wild part that they they've got dogs have got anal glands on on the on the part on part of the anus surprisingly and um and when they when they when they defecate then it expresses the anal glands and so part of defecating for for dogs in the wild is actually territory marking to a certain degree as well and what happens in dogs which they fed bar material is the anal glands don't get properly expressed when they're going and so you get impaction of the anal glands and infection in there and then they have problems and all the rest of it and actually similar situ interesting your idea this I think that's why the prostate in men is Right close to the end as well because I think that stimulation of defecating perhaps has an action on the pr state to to keep to keep it you know empty it a little bit and and keep it healthy and I wonder maybe is that why we're seeing more prostate cancer in in men yeah interesting and well apart from the inflammatory thing of the diet you know that's also part of it but there you know it just this a little physical aspect of it that that we're missing potentially as well it's it's a very good point and it's it's worth exploring because it is right there I mean that's how that's how you check someone's prostate is is transrectally right and um unfortunately and I think I think I have like PTSD from every every prostate exam I've ever given somebody but Jo and probably they do too but bet don't like anal doing anal gland expulsions either well that was the thing I I had a I had a friend of mine who had a pug and and they were saying there was just like yeah you have to get it you have to get their anal gland expressed all the time they just get clogged up and it's say it's like first of all it's a it's it's just a mutant you know mean that thing sort of animals just aren't supposed to exist um but um but that that makes sense so so like in a pug um would that if they were be fed like a raw food diet would that would that need the expression be able to do it absolutely you know when you when you're on the right diet everything works and I know as I say to people you know when you're on the right um ancestral evolutionary diet when you have eaten sufficient to be satiated it is automatically correct for energy protein fat carbs micronutrients everything and that's why it's so uncomplicated because in the nature animals don't have to work out whether they've got this idea of a balanced di I mean that's a construct human construct um because because when you when you're on the right diet everything is automatically correct and it will be it will be balanced for one of a better word over you know over a few meals over a fortnite or so and we don't the body is more than capable of taking out what it needs so provided there is a sufficiency then then everything the body takes what it needs but if if if the right diet is there that satiation level actually determines that actually everything there is in the right proportions and in the right amounts and we don't have to think anym about it it's really not that complicated and not that difficult and yet you know owners are taught that they don't have the knowledge to know how to feed their cats and dogs by doing it themselves so therefore they've got to hand that power over and they've got to buy this this packet or this bag or something and of course because the pet food companies want that to be the sole source for the whole of the animal's life they've come up with this concept of balance um so everything is because you can't have a Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday bag you know you've got to have one bag that does every day every week every year and so what happens is because they don't really know what they're doing it and and the research is is done to to to make sure that that looks like they know what they're doing then you get the diseases happening and then they go onto the more expensive prescription diets or science diets however they want to call them um and it it's it's you know it's all wrong it's just fundamentally wrong um as you can imagine get a bit frustrated about it it might be coming across yeah well but that's the thing too I mean it's a bit um it's a bit cheeky isn't it saying that you know this this kibble is Science Diet oh science actually says the diet is meat right that's what you're saying that's what the data shows that's what just observing the world around you shows oh yeah AB absolutely you know and and actually what you were saying about you the dogs liking you because because of you're a carnivore there there's some truth to that because in a in a in a wolf pack if if certain only certain dogs are allowed to eat the organ meat because it puts a certain um Aroma about them which determines the the hierarchy of of that pack so so so what you were saying Al you were joking you're probably there's element of Tru of Truth to that as absolutely and and again and you think well so you know we we need to understand these things because if we're not careful we're going to cause behavioral problems between dogs because they're going to be sniffing and and and sensing things that we don't fully appreciate they actually you might be sending a signal out to another dog that actually I'm actually quite aggressive or or I'm the Kingpin here and the other dog thinks he's the Kingpin and before it you've got you got some antagonism going on which which they didn't need to have but so that you know there's all these subtleties that we really you know we we scratch the surface really understanding it all and the more we leave it to Nature the the you know the more likely we are to be correct um you know I I think I really think we over complicate everything and you know we sort of we we we disempower owners to actually understand that they M and capable and and their animals and more and capable of knowing what what's good for them yeah um you were saying earlier about about oxalates and cats I remember i' I've heard so many times my family members and things like that have had cats that have you know crystals in their bladder and their heing problems that probably was that and then I remembered um you know from my my talk and plants are trying to kill you I talked about some of the the diseases that livestock tend to get and one of them was was named bige head and that was from my understanding that was from oxalates and they calcium calcium issue yeah yeah is it and and that's some of the thing so so as as a vet like I wasn't making that up was I I mean like animals get into the wrong forage they get very sick and and we have but we have names for them don't we you know and um can do do you know much about the the livestock medicine side of things of animals getting wrong forage yeah I mean there are the you know as you say even the herbivores you know they can be susceptible to you know things like ragwar or or you and so I mean ragar big a lot of the a lot of the problems in in plants for Animals seem to be alkaloids um but there are others I mean obiously you've got the night shade so potato um which is the same for for for humans as well um you get cyano compounds so get hydrogen cyanide being produced when it's metabolized um Sycamore you get saponins they can cause bloat so you know cattle eat or sheep eat far too much you know if there's too much clover in the grass then the saponins basically make everything in the room and sort of um froth and so then the gas can't escape and so they it just blows up and they you know get these swollen bellies and they you know that it causes them in massive flat well you know it's we way to release it is to put a tro car in and canular and actually release it through the side door as it were but um it's you know so so you know plants Al L Al L herbivores are adapted to to eating plants you know they are only adapted to eating certain plants in certain volumes um and I was thinking about it the other day it's like are there actually any animals that eat plants and actually digest plants directly themselves because actually you know you got ruminants have got this four stomach sort of arrangement at the front end of of of the of the of the of the of the cows and and the sheep and the goats where and and it's the bacteria in the room and that actually do the digesting and create the triglycerides and and release the energy and all the rest of it and then you've got the horses which are hind gut fermentor so the Fiber goes in and it's the bacteria in the hind gut that then you know ferment it and release the nutrients and it's like well you know how much are these animals actually digesting the plant material themselves it seems to me it's actually you know 90% done by bacteria and only a small amount done done by The Animals anyway and then the only other technique that I know that's different from hind or for gut fermenters is rabbits where they eat it twice to you know they coprophagic to pass it through to try and get the nutrients out there'll be some bacteria along the way that they've done something but it'll be a bit too close to the end to to get enough nutrients out so they they recycle it again and get it out the second time around um so you know even herbivores aren't that brilliantly in some ways adapted to eating plants directly they they've got to use bacteria to do it so you know you know and the microbiome you know we we are so conscious of of how the microbiome is is so important for immunity and mental health and all sorts of things in humans now you just think well how you know if we're if we you know we we're raising animals sort of on these unnatural you know diets where lots of grains where they would actually just be eating forid normally what do we you know that must be changing their microbiome as well to what is that doing to their other physiology in in other ways and you know I'm you know we really do need to start getting back to regenerative farming and now we're learning all this information and we're not utilizing it you know we know humans are stupid but they got no wisdom whatsoever um you know they've got knowledge but they've got no idea how to apply it and if something comes along they they so slow to adopt it um that you think why you know what we're doing is is storing up health problems for for them putting them through a lot of stress and you know we want good welfare as vets we should be should be pushing through you know good welfare you know we shouldn't be supporting bad practice just because we can give something injectable you know that's that wasn't why I became a pet you know I wanted to make the world a better place um you know for the animals and and and for us um and I think if if we do that farming bit properly and actually take into consideration what we have learned about you know metabolic diseases and and what's good in bad in plants and and sort of the the dangers of of grains and how they go to sugars and then become addictive even in herit Wars um and all the rest of it it's like well you know why aren we using this knowledge we we've got it but we're just not applying it and then it's not in helping not helping the welfare and then as vets we've got Monopoly on what we do in treating animals because we're supposed to be overseeing the Weare it's like well there's precious little bit going on you know there is in one on some directions yes the Vets are absolutely on top of the welfare aspect of it but when it comes to nutrition we are absolutely nowhere to be seen as far as I can see for the vast majority and you know I'm saying it's not it's not willful it it's but it is it is refusal to look at the evidence and and and accept it and and adjust accordingly um and that's you know there's you know there's all sorts of ways that people need to start supporting their regenerative farmers and bu locally and a they'll be getting better food for themselves but they'll also be supporting those farmers who are trying to improve the welfare of of their animals that they look after at least and and and promote that whole way of of of of producing our food and keeping it local as well so you the the where every you know your field and my field absolutely tied in in in in in that field and you know we need to we need to be sort more mindful of of research in in in both and how they actually apply to to all yeah definitely um I mean it's the basis it's fundamental basis of all health and yeah and I like the point that you made there that that even herbivores are really not good at digesting plants it's actually very difficult to turn plant tissue into animal tissue very easy to turn animal tissue into animal tissue and yet we're trying to pretend that the tissue that we're made out of the same meat and flesh and fat that we're made out of somehow if we ingest that same material that that's somehow toxic to us or or is it the building blocks to make everything that we're made of like wouldn't that make more sense I mean good for and um you know you're talking about like the digestion yeah they they don't they don't digest much I was I was doing research from for the book I'm writing and I I couldn't find any animal that could break down fiber at all even termites don't do it it's the micro microorganism so um cows have bacteria termites have protozoa the protozoa are what eat the fiber and again release short chain fatty acid saturated fat and they die off and then they uh become protein uh for the for the larger organism so no animal can can U Break Down fiber I had heard at one point it was just um vertebrate animals but I I don't think that's even true of invertebrates at least none that I can find and it's mad isn't it and yet then now even on the even on the dog front they're trying to produce vegan diets for dogs and you go hang on a minute and then the justification was well they're omnivores so therefore we can feed the plant bit and you go actually you know dogs are more carnivore in terms of their Anatomy than humans and I I agree with you I think we are primarily carnivals as well um so you know dogs have got these Jaws that just hinge up and down there is no sideways grinding movement possible because when they're crunching bones that would if if the jaw suddenly slipped off to the side it would probably dislocate it so the Jaws are actually anatomically unable to open other than up and down they've got no teeth for grinding any plant material at all it's all for ripping and tearing and crunching and chewing and then they've got this really strong acid they've got a relatively short digestive tract they've got no fermentation area and yes they might have a couple of enzymes that wolves didn't have but we've got enzymes that that that we can you know metabolize sugar but it doesn't mean therefore it means it is a required part of the diet and yet all these bogus reasons to justify feeding plant material to and carbohydrates to dogs um and cats when they're carnivals and and again they try and break down distinction well you know cats cats are obligate carnivals because they've got to have meat but dogs are facultative carnivore it's like no there is only two there's only you know you've got carnivore omnivore and herbivore Sub sub breakdowns of those are a construct to justify because you've got an agenda to do something differently and you know we let's let's get this call it for what it is it's it's and that that you know the dogs are designed there's nothing about them that says they they're designed to have carbohydrates and and have plants that provide those and all the anti nutrients and it's like you know the the meat produces everything that they need and and the bone obviously the minerals and you know the marrow in the bone as well um it's interesting something else John my my my good friend Dairy Farmer told me that I hadn't occurred to me before do you know the reason why foxes go into a into a chicken pen and they they kill all the all the chickens why is that it's because the head is the most nutritious part because it's got the brain in there so it's more efficient for them to kill lots of individuals and eat the heads than to than to kill one and eat the whole body yeah no kidding interesting how clever is that yeah so they just they just munch the heads on M they just yeah they basically decapitate the get the nutrition from that and bug her off wow um and and and so it's actually it's it's it's a sort of a hunting strategy that that they that there's actually when you when you realize that that's why they're doing it it makes perfect sense um so yeah so you know definit definitely you know this just and the other things oh or you can't feed you can't feed dogs or cats chicken bones because because they'll kill them and I go well how many dead foxes have you seen you know they you know they you know they they scavenge and they eat and they you know some of them will eat more than just the heads but but you don't see dead foxes draped around the countryside because because they've you know they've struggled and my ter is 14 now 14 and a half and say his favorite food is drumsticks and he just crunches it up and and it's gone in it's gone in a in a couple of minutes and it it's it's s it's just you know they they get used to doing it and I think also you know they they put taste enhances in some of the commercial Pet Foods as well I actually came across a chap who who who actually admitted that he'd been consulted with by a cat food company to work out the best taste enhancer to use with cats to make them eat the food and then make it addictive so you know what you see these adverts on tell and they say eight out of 10 owners they say their cats prefer it and what they should be saying is eight out of 10 owners don't know their cats are addicts and and it's you know this is and that's why brand brand awareness comes you know my dog my cat will only eat these Brands it's so actually your cat if it was wild wouldn't care what it ate when it's in the wild you don't see a cheetah walking past a you know a gazelle carcass and go I'm not I don't eat gazelle you know I I I only like zebra um you know you know it just doesn't happen you know they they they'll eat and scavenge what they what they have and then you you look at saw some wild program the other day and and there was a there's a big male lion on there and you looked at him and you go you know we sort of almost you know we're we're groomed to think that that the body condition you know we what we've got it all wrong you know you looked at this C this this line and my first impression was it oh it looks thin and I go yeah catch on Roger that that Lon is fit ass he's just caught that and eaten it he's he's got what he needs you know he doesn't need to be carrying any more weight which is why you don't get heart disease and you don't get you don't get diabetes in in wild animals but you know we get them in in our cats and our dogs these days um because because we're feeding them all all the wrong diets and and we sort of trained ourselves to think underwe or what we think is well what is actually fit we're we're sort of conditioned to think that that's underweight and it isn't you know and and and then it's just just just Bonkers isn't it I mean it's yeah you just don't get these diseases in in the wild and the other one that get thrown at me all wolves only they don't live as long as dogs they yeah that's CU they got to catch their prey they might get kicked in the process and actually if if if something happen happens and it breaks a teeth you know teeth are designed to kill us because if something happens to a tooth then infection gets in or you know an infection gets in and it starts to smell you try creeping up on something that's got a really good sense of smell when you've got a rotten mouth and also if you've got rotten mouth just underneath your nose you can't smell the prey before it can smell you so you know that living in the wild is is a very different environment from from from what we provide for them and the only time the other thing oh dog wolves will eat fruit and go well they they might do they might have a little bit of fruit when it's ripe but I think that's because it switches on the Randall cycle just before winter so they put a bit more fat on their body to condition them for for for the winter when they've got to maybe you know Foods a little bit more scarce so but just because they might eat eat a bit of blueberry or a bit of raspberry or whatever Berry it comes across you know in in the wild doesn't mean that therefore we should be giving it every day you know it's a completely different scenario and you know I think I think animals go through cycles of body condition at different times of the year you know and I think there's a re there's a there's a metabolic and and physiological reason why that happens as well and yet we we tend to keep our animals the same all year round and and we'll feed them foods that would only ever be seasonal and then wonder why why we've got health problems with them um you know it we we just got so far away from from from thinking straight about about what's going on and I often say to people if you don't see it on a natural history program on TV well you don't have to do it for them so they don't cook they don't tackle wheat Fields they don't dig vegetables they don't go down to the supplement shop they they don't they don't go down to the pre-ground shop with there with their carcass to then get it processed for them they eat raw meat and bones and they scavenge it they don't hunt and they don't need anything else and we don't need to do anything else for them when you keep it simple yep that's that's how it is everything else just falls into place yeah absolutely and you know the thing is would say well animals in the wild wolves in the wild they don't they don't live as long as dogs like well first of all that the average life expectancy of dogs is is halfed in the last 40 years and second of all what about wolves in the zoo they live way longer than in the wild they're not having that the dangers of of the wild and they they live much much longer and they're perfectly healthy they don't get these diseases unless they're fed the wrong diet if they're fed just meat they're fed just normal normal yeah food that they should eat they don't get the human diseases that's why there's signs that say don't feed the animals it makes them sick to eat the wrong thing and yet we forget that that applies to animals like our pets it only applies to animals Anthony it doesn't apply to humans well yeah domes dogs or our cats yeah exactly or birds or anything or yeah or your managerie I mean it's just it's just so silly um you know one of the things that I I came across as well was some similarity so you know we have these similarities and diseases obviously we have the the so-called human diseases that are that are increasing in dogs and cats yeah and is a human disease right and uh and why is it going up um but one of these diseases uh that I found out about that was very similar was was muscular distrophy exists in cows there's a Bine form of muscular distrophy but it's it's known to be this is the thing uh cows cows are worth something right this is a product and you say hey we need to figure out what's going on here because this is money and so we pay people to find this out humans are worthless it's just like you die oh shoot you know so bad you know we pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get futile treatment and then we die anyway and it's like H oh well but if a cow dies it's like well that's someone's money like someone's responsible and um and so actually things get done and so they found these you know big head limp neck Crazy Cow syndrome they like what the hell is going on oh they ate these plants these plants are bad for them okay well that's causing that here's what we do um and then muscular distrophy um to my understanding it was from uh selenium deficiency if you have a selenium deficiency then then they'll get muscular distribute but from what I understand or what I was told was that it's it's the same muscular distrophy as we get in humans which begs the question is this is this nutritional uh a nutritional deficiency in humans has anyone bloody well checked that do you know do you know much about that I can't remember was it aoan world or or or liners Pauling who said every dis every disease is nutritional oh really yeah yeah I think I think it was lonus Pauling okay makes sense you got the Nobel Prize obviously and very famous with with vitamin C yeah um so yeah I mean it wouldn't it wouldn't surprise me you know that there are nutrition nutritional deficiencies and and again you know you sort of look at the micronutrients they they just sort of talk about sort of the ones that are there in the biggest amounts and you go well okay so I sort tend to think of things slightly the other way around so if you've got something that there supposed to be there at five parts per million but it's only there at four it doesn't sound like very much compared to something that's supposed to be there in milligrams but actually 5 to four is a 20% loss if if if that micronutrient actually is really important for how that enzyme over there functions or know that actually could be the limiting you know you're only as good as your weakest link and so it's like the amino acid profile in Plants isn't it you know your protein quality is only as good as the the presence of of of the amino acid that's the most limiting factor in in the amino acid that's there and I think the same is true for micronutrients all the way down and so we you know but we tend to focus and think the most important things are there in the biggest amounts actually no they're all supposed to be there in the correct amount and actually it's the deviation from that the biggest deviation from what's supposed to be there at it at its most natural level is actually the the weakest link in that chain and it it's the most restrictive element of of of that diet or or whatever so you know we we just need to think about things in in different ways I think and know what's there in the in the most amount doesn't necessarily mean it's the mo you know it is important not saying that that you know Cal know potassium and sodium aren't important but actually there's a lot more leeway in term you know in terms of amounts that that you can have within the diet there whereas something which is there as supposed to be there as a trace actually there's very much lessly way in terms of whether it's there or not there and you know and again the whole epigenetics thing you know it all feeds into that as well and and biophysics I'm a great believer that actually biophysics is is is the fundamental thing to how the body works not biochemistry and and we don't it's not taught as a subject you know it's there we need we need to re re rethink how we think about the body and incorporate all these new ideas that that come into I'm sure you come across fourth phase Water by Jerry poac and and others as well you know there's you know we don't take these things into consideration where where we should you know medicine is very slow to adopt different different ways of thinking um so yeah protein structures all to do with the biophysical environment around it and yet that determines how enzymes and cell membranes and everything functions and yet we don't take any of that into consideration um it just the mind boggles again it's it's one another yes another example of how much we think we know but how little we do actually know and how all these things fit together and um yeah that's that's why we need to stick to our ancestral diet because you know it just automatically takes takes care of those things that we are completely ignorant about um and and I think you know keep it simple stupid as is is an acronym that's used in in all sorts of things from from business but you know equally applicable in in nutrition and medicine and and everything as well yeah absolutely so we sort of spoke about you know the the increased prevalence in diseases and domesticated pets but how how large of a burden is this is it is it small is it large I mean how how much has this grown in recent years is it are we just sort of being a bit too sensitive about this or is this a major issue it's a major issue I mean cancer in dogs is now approaching one in four um obviously in humans we we we we know often we recognize that that lifetime you know stress lifestyle you know can have a big big factor in that well I'm sorry but most pets don't have much stress in their life they don't have to worry about heating they don't you know they don't have to hunt for themselves it's put in front of them you know that that they're not under huge pressure to pay the mortgage or the bills or all the rest of it you know they don't have the same stresses that that we know suppress our immune system and and and you know have cortisol problems and all the rest of it that that can lead to other diseases so as far as I'm concerned the biggest issue in in in animal health is nutrition and if we're suddenly approaching one in four dogs you know getting cancer then we've got something majorly wrong and yet there have been studies to show that that we're you know processed foods are pro inflam inflammatory and obviously cancer is a local symptom of a systemic problem which is inflammation and so what we're seeing is you know a manifestation of of of the of the bad diet down through the generations and as you say the lives lifespans are getting shorter and shorter and it tends to be the larger dogs apparently seem to be more affected so their lifestyle their lifespan is coming down you know and you get some big dogs like I know Great Dan s six to eight years is SE as quite a good lifespan for a dog and yet I've got one of my clients who raw feeds her great de and they'll live to 15 um so you know it is possible you know it is possible I mean my Terry is my last Terry lived to 17 boots is is approaching 14 or no he's over 14 now he' be 15 next birthday so you know we've got hope we get a few good few years out of him yet but you know it is possible when the when the diet and the lifestyle is good and we provide everything for them and we're seeing a lot more autoimmune diseases um and you a lot of skin diseases and yet for me the skin is an extension of the gut it's actually if you think about it it's just the internal bit of the skin that goes internally so what you see happening in the skin is actually a mirror to what's happening in the gut and then a lot of dogs get itchy ears well that the ears are a mirror to what's happening on the skin generally just because the air flow isn't so good there problems get concentrated in the ears so if you want if you've got a dog that's itchy and got ear problems you haven't got a hope in Hell getting it right unless you actually address the diet and get the gut healed because without the gut being healed you're going to get proteins and things crossing a leaky gut barrier and setting up Al you know immune issues which the skin people forget that it's a huge organ of excretion not just our barrier between our insides and and the environment so you know it's the biggest organ of the body it's involved in excretion so you know all these toxins and and things that the body is trying to shove out it can't shove it out through the urinary tract and it can't shove it out through through the digestive tract it the only place left the L and the lungs obviously small degree of excretion from there but there you know the rest the main part of it then is is the skin and then of course things are on the skin that are hurting because the body's trying to get them out and then the dog scratches at it so you know don't be surprised if we've got inflammation there so the skin is the skin is a mirror to the gut and you can't heal the gut and I'd say probably you know probably see the same in hum time I imagine ecer and psoriasis are are actually they are they are window into in into into what's going on in the gut in in in those cases situations as well I suspect um I I'm not a human expert to to say that but to me it makes sense from what I've seen on the veter side and my experience in in getting owners to swap from from commercial to to raw and Improvement they they can get that that's that that's what's going on um and the same something your podcast you've mentioned how how that can take a little while um and also the importance of of of being strict about the diet as well I remember you telling me one story I think one of your clients she was still using spices or something for for for cooking her stakes and still had some autoimmune symptoms and you think okay well that makes sense because people get peanut allergies and they don't actually have to have an awful lot of peanut to get this massive anaphylactic reaction so it makes sense you know the sort of Penny started dropping and and you think God you know yeah okay so so you know actually the plant material could be quite a lot more significant even if it's there in a very very small amount because once you've got that degree of Sensi ization there then you know you've got to eliminate it and be really strict in order to to to to to allow that to to calm down and settle down and heal and then and then go back and it you know as I say it's it's been not I sort of knew these things in to a certain degree already but it hadn't the pennies hadn't dropped actually to how crucial and how important they they need to be to get right in some cases and and as a result that how long sometimes it takes being on the correct Diet before before everything you know comes right and I know you from I've heard from you that that that's your your your experience as well yeah the um the yeah the spices thing um those really harsh strong taste you only need a little bit of it and you have this big strong flavor that's you're tasting the worst of the top toxins in that plant and the most harmful one that's what your brain your tongue is warning you about it's like do do not eat this one yeah me people were doing the cinnamon challenge for a while on YouTube they just just a spoonful of cinnamon see if you can swallow it your body will reject it it will force you while you'll be coughing and spluttering and choking and spitting this stuff out and your body is just rebelling because there it's there's so many harsh toxins in there that you're get that very strong flavor and that's what your body's warning you about there's a book that I got for Christmas from my mom that was just called most delicious poisons and um and it was all about spices all the different spices that we used and and it these are like the most toxic parts of the plant and that's that's why they have that strong flavor and uh you know you're not wrong about the the gut and the skin in humans um there are a number of maladies of the gut that can display as as rashes as well you can get rashes with Celiac and Crohn's and Al colitis and these other sorts of things they can manifest as uh on on the skin and have rashes as well so um yeah and then psoriasis you can get that Al know psoriatic arthritis and things like that so that' be interesting to see if there's a correlation you know with something going inside you know what was going on inside and they're you know they're autoimmune so lot of autoimmune conditions travel together and so yeah you never know what do you say to your patients I'm sure You' Get It On The Human Side golden paste I'm sure you've heard of it K kir canine freshly ground pepper and and coconut oil because of the you know the the turmeric and the the cumin oids and that and obviously it's got really positive you know you can't if you search on the internet and it cures everything apart from death um but but so it's sometimes difficult because obviously there are you know we do know there are benefits from from from curcuminoids and we know perazine in the back black pepper helps the body absorb it you know what do you say if you've got clients that go well I'm on I'm taking this you know the golden past I'm taking I'm taking the supplements that have got these beneficial plant ingredients in there you know how how do you what's your response to that because obviously they're doing it because they think they're helping themselves but obviously are they or you know where where it it's so difficult to because a lot of the research he's done to prove something rather than actually find out objectively yeah you know it's it it then becomes such a weight of evidence saying that it's beneficial that actually there may be something there saying that it's harmful but you've got to get down to page 53 of Pub Med to find it and and yet actually it's the crucial paper you need to see to understand fully what you know what the risk benefit side of things are yeah yeah well I just point out that you know there of course they're going to be good things and plants we use these things medly all the time there's aspirin and willow bark there's digitalis and fox Club but there are other things too and there are other things that can cause harm and often times these things that maybe we want that in certain circumstances they're beneficial but in other circumstances they're detrimental I mean what is what is a medicine if not a poison that in just certain circumstances confers more benefit than harm well outside of those circumstances you're just getting the harm and you're not getting the benefit and so you're you need to know exactly what you're taking exactly how much you're taking the dosage you don't really know that with your the plants that you're getting and and it has to be a very specific set of circumstances not just all the time or else that would just be a nutrient that wouldn't be a medicine and there there are no nutrients that we need in plants that we can't get from meat and you get the bad with the good because they have a lot of other toxins in it uh that you don't want and so you know they say well it's anti-inflammatory effects it's like all right well it has more inflammatory factors than anti-inflammatory factors and we need to remember that as well as a friend of mine Richard Smith he has a uh you health and fitness uh sort company and he's he was a professional bodybuilder and and did it naturally and uh did it on keto and then carnivore and was like European he's a British uh national champion and pro- champion and then European pro- Champion as well and he did it naturally um the British Championship was a was a tested event and the European world was an untested event so he went up against people that were you know juicing and things like that and he wasn't yeah he won and so he won but he's like you know the next step up he would have to basically grind for about 10 years to build up the the mass to to really have any sort of Hope without Peds uh so he just he just said that that's enough for me and um but he had a company that you know they made supplements and and these sorts of things and he and he and he had things just like that and then he started finding out more about actually all these other things that are in turmeric and curcumin and and black PE that were actually really really detrimental and that was just like saying oh this is so great like you say hey maybe they're cherry picking out like the you know looking at these these um compounds in isolation they're not considering in the whole plant um or they're just you know pretty rubbish studies in the first place so he started digging into this a lot more and he realized that his product was crap and he pulled it and he's and he made it he's like hey I'm not selling this anymore you know if you guys want to return it I'll take it um and he said I've got I've got like a whole whole Warehouse full of this stuff but like I'm not going to sell this stuff because it's not it's not good it's not good for people and so yeah it's um well it's just funny what what people get sold into but um well it's natural isn't it well we want something natural well arsenic's natural you know so I've got another I say dog shit's natural but that's true yeah but you know from the veterinary side but but it is you know I mean I'm a natural vet I you know I do all my all of my work is sort of holistic but uh you know I'm I'm very objective and try to be very grounded at what I do and looking at what I'm doing and you know if it's not appropriate I'll tell people then if it is then then then I'll you know I'll do what I do but but it you know there is this natur as you say an assumption that just because it's got the word natural in it it is a automatically 100% safe and effective um which which isn't necessarily you know true as well um yeah it it is it is a problem isn't it where you know cognitive dissonance and and um and and and bias you know you're looking you're looking for for the for the you know we it happen on the on on the nutritional front that confirmation bias to to to prove what they want to prove but you know we we got to be careful on the other side that we you know we don't do the same in in in the opposite direction so it's um yeah know it it is it's a it's a mindfield and it's difficult to know what research you can trust and what you can't trust sometimes as well which you know so people need to get in Chun with their body and and and sort look look for the small signs um I think to to help help work out what what's good for us and what's not good for us there is a certain degree of individuality as well I mean one of the you know one of the things I've seen with some some of the biohackers I saw one who kept on saying oh we need to have Beats we need to have Beats because you need you need nitric acid and you you ear your age if you don't if you don't have your nitric acid and I sort of messaged him back and said well I do believe arine is a precursor for that we can get that from me but you know didn't didn't want to hear it really um so you know we just got to be aware of of agendas and make sure we we haven't got one you know that that's that's blinding us to essential information but I think when you're when you're on the ancestral diet you know you you're on pretty safe ground from from that point of view because I said you know when when you when you get it right everything is automatically taken care of yeah definitely and it is difficult to know what what studies and what literature is is reliable um I mean this isn't this isn't just me saying this you know as the editor um of the lanet said um oh I don't know a few years ago he said that that medical research is unreliable at best yeah Richard hon yeah yeah and he said that that you know at least half of these studies are seriously conflicted um extremely biased or just flat out fraudulent they've doctored the numbers and they've faked all these sorts of things and um and it wasn't just him either um it was Richard Horton um was the the editor of the Lance but then there were there were others as well there was one was like the editor was an IM was an American Journal wasn't there one of the American journals she said you know she's been an cheap editor for decades and suddenly come to the conclusion that that that it's that it's totally unreliable as well that's it yeah it was um yeah it was the New England Journal of Medicine yeah in fact she she'd been editor-in chief for years years and years and years and she said um yeah she said it was just you couldn't it was it was no longer possible to believe uh you know much of the clinical research you just you you just had to just sort of understand that this was this was flawed and fraudulent you had corporate capture you had and you know I mean it used to be that you know you basically wouldn't wouldn't trust anything until you had it it uh replicated and duplicated by ANP dependent lab right now would just people just publish publish I think that's probably part of the the era of publish or Parish you just have to just put out there and so they're just yeah you know the the literature is just flooded with studies that are mostly useless and then others that are completely uncorroborated and haven't been replicated so they say oh look at this oh we did this and that's what it is Ah that's what it is then okay did anybody else go and and replicate this the experiment to see if you got similar results you know if if you didn't you know you have to just sort of take it with a grain of salt and and people aren't even doing and they're not even doing Rous studies you know they're they're you like the nurses study I mean what a joke that is you you send a bunch of nurses of a questionnaire once a year and say hey what did you eat last year and and then then they'd send that back in you know like oh okay you know you going to remember every meal that you had for an entire calendar year good luck yeah it was a twin study which was equally ridiculous as as as well wasn't there I mean I think one of the figures that people because some some of the techniques that I use they they aren't published in the in the in sort of the mainstream journals and stuff and and my my response to that will from what I understand 60% of what was once published saying it was absolutely correct is later proven to be absolutely wrong so the fact that I'm not in the journal makes me more likely to be right well there's that too yeah absolutely yeah and uh well you know it's like the it's like the old um there's a there's an address at the Harvard uh Medical School Graduation I think in the 30s and they said that they said to the graduating students they said Just remember half of the things that you learned here at Harvard are going to turn out to be wrong but no one's going to tell you which half so you have to figure that out you have to find out you have to search you have to experiment you have to trial uh these things yourself to figure out what was right and what was wrong and and discover new things yourself people forget that we get so dogmatic it takes so bloody long to finish your degree and then finish your training and residencies and fellowships that all you're doing you're just geared is just like taking information regurgitate it take in reg take in regurgitate and at no point have you taught people how to think for themselves and I think I think I'm quite lucky my my my my brain only works by if I if I don't understand something from from basic principles then I'm not very good at just regurgitating and blindly doing but if I understand the why I'm doing something and the basics of it and and and what it's all about then I'll take it to to places that perhaps others don't go as well but but it you know I've You' got to have that understanding and application to to do it and the other the other people oh what you're doing it's all anecdotal and go well the plural of anecdote is data you know you know there there there's a lot you know how many how many carnivores people are than you know and how and how many carnivore animals and pets are there now and again the trouble with with the Vets is you know because the the proper raw meaty bones fed dogs and cats are so healthy they don't see the Vets apart from when they absolutely have to they fall over and break a leg or do something very you know something serious so you know the overwhelming um opinion that vets have of animals coming through their doors they're all sick and and so they don't see the the raw ones and then of course when something happens it's always a raw fed or what it must have been that that's caused it then the fact that you know 98% of the rest of their patients to the door that day were all kibble fed and they they don't want to draw the same conclusion to the diet because they might have sold it to them um you know it's such a double standard and and you know missing missing the point of of it you know but you know they they there are but there are so many rawfed dogs and cats out there that it that don't have problems live to ripe old age and the the mother bug bear is you know the the the mix up between common and uh and normal okay so older you know arthritis in an old dog it's not normal it's common yeah because that means a dog that's 15 that hasn't got arthritis is abnormal and it's not abnormal it just uncommon and so and the reason for it is is that is you know that the 15 world without arthritis will be rawfed and but it then makes you think well how much of the you know the the hematology and other ranges that we rely on as clinicians you know those how much you know what is a normal range or is that a common range you know if if if if a diet is fed properly what what you know should this range actually be slightly shifted left or right and should it be a lot narrower um you know because of so much of the research especially in the factory side you know the beagles or whatever breeds they're using for for for doing research in in in um in whatever area of medicine you know they'll be doing them on as far as I'm concerned fundamentally disease results because they're being fed the wrong diet and so you know how reliable is that research is reliable up to certain degree obviously but you know so being pedantic about it and and thinking about it you know what what is normal what is you know what is common and how much of what we understand is is normal actually isn't and it's actually common and we should be shifting some of our parameters that we're analyzing and looking at and recognizing and and and you know thinking accordingly yeah I think I think that um is very important like you said just to think at based principles this fundamental principles how does a body work how you know eating ancestrally eating what we're supposed to eat and just letting your body work it is very interesting how all these things work together and how complex and intricate they are which of course we have no semblance of an understanding of to any real degree but uh we don't have to it's interesting it's great it's nice to learn about but we don't we don't have to know it what we have to know is that you you put in the right things and and the right things happen that's what you need to know and that's what you need to do and uh so I think that's it's very important you just do that you just do what you're biologically designed to do and your body will work the way it's biologically designed to work and you you were saying the the plural of anecdote is data it's another word for anecdote is also real life yeah right and so you know if that doesn't that doesn't lie up with real life like I don't care Oh but what's the data say what does the data say I I don't know but but I I know what what real life says real life says that we've been eating meat for 2 million years without any diseases these diseases have shown up in the last 120 years that's what real life tells me and what real life tells me is that I have patients that come into me with Crohns ulttis rheumat arthritis uh diabetes and um and obesity and depression and all these other sorts of issues and I change their diet to the thing that you say is going to kill them and make all those things worse and it does the opposite that's what real life tells me that's why don't care I I don't care what A study says I mean most of these studies are flawed anyway most of these studies are you know a survey once that people fill out once every year or once every two years or it's you know it's something like the the lanet the New England Journal of Medicine the two most prestigious medical journals in the world and yet the editors there said half of what comes out here is complete you know so no I don't I don't care I don't care what studies where is your study up your ass I I just don't care you know like I have patience where are your patients where are your patients that are doing better on on the standard recommendation diet than an ancestral diet you know name one right like I I can name thousands that I put on ancestral diets and they've improved dramatically I mean it's in the hundreds of thousands now just people that just are just doing this around the world that's know thing what we have to do you know we have to breathe we have to eat we don't have to do a lot more than that and and I just makes me laugh when you think well if we if we shifted what we say about diet towards breathing I'm sorry I'm not going to eat I'm not going to breathe that air because it's it's uh it it needs to come from a human bottle I need to have put the gases together you know in aqual long before I can breathe because that's a logical you know extrapolation from what we're doing with feeding you know so I'm sorry I'm just going to breathe the air that's outside if you don't mind um you know it's it it you know if you sort of think about it in those terms it makes it just shows how ridiculous how you know we've got to we've got to control the dart we've got to do for the T and dos we've got to do all this processed stuff it's like where's your data where's where's your data where are your studies showing that breathing air outside is is good where is it you know well you know where where's your randomized control trial to show that that parachutes work you're going to use parachutes do what you want like you know that that looking at real ity thing is a really important thing you you mentioned you mentioned earlier a very good point that you know you you make observations in the real world and then you try to study them you know if you if you and and you try to see why that's happening but if you if you don't see something happen if you see that something's not happening specifically you know you're you're not going to try to you're not going to have a have a study that shows a phenoma that doesn't exist you if you just don't see I have a study that says oh that gravity doesn't exist if you throw a rock it'll just go into space you know I was like yeah but i' I've thrown rocks they don't go to space I'm sorry that's not what the data says I was like yeah if if you haven't got a paper it can't be true that's it you know and it's just like but it's just but it's that absurd you know you're like it disagrees with the observe phenomena it disagrees with the real world and so if it if it disagrees with that it's wrong it's you Richard fan said that as well it doesn't matter how brilliant your theory is and it doesn't matter how smart you are if it doesn't agree with the experiment it's wrong well if it doesn't agree with reality either it's wrong and you know Einstein and fan did that you know they'd have mathematical proofs they try to figure something out and then they the technology would improve they'd be able to observe something like that was wrong throw it out you know it didn't matter how great your equation was it didn't line up with what we saw the frustrating thing is how long you know we've known so much of these you know obvious truths so and yet and yet as Prof as professions you know the medical profession the vet profession we just we just ignore these inconvenient facts to to to what we want to do what and what sort of this Twisted research is telling us I mean there there was a very famous human dentist called to Frank cier in 1947 he's you know he he was studying you know teeth and he basically said you know animals fed their proper you know ancestral diet do not get periodontal disease if you could just take out per Donal disease how much improvement in health would that have worldwide and yet that was said in 1947 and here we are you know 2024 and vets are still pushing food which which is causing obesity which they say they're struggling to get to to get on top of um even though obviously animals their diets are controlled that much more by people because the animals can only eat primarily what they're given so it means what what we're giving them is is fundamentally wrong if we're not correct all those obesity problems and then they're getting all these periodontal diseases was it like 80% of dogs within three two or three years have have dental problems requiring Dental interference you go well you know in 1947 it was identified that animals fed the correct diet don't need don't have any disease whatsoever and these weren't just like one or two year old dogs these were you know bones and things that he he'd seen for the for for Aged animals uh and looked throughout you know his his research and you know he was kned for Christ's sake for for his for his knowledge and yet we're just completely dissing that and ignoring it and and then wondering why why we do what we do and then we're taking money for it I mean the the morals and ethics of it are are are very questionable and as I said a couple of times already you know this isn't willful bad bad morals and bad ethics but it it it amounts to that because you know they're you know they're refusing to to look in these directions and look at this knowledge which in some cases has been known for decades um and then you know it's the animals who are who are suffering and the owners you know unfortunately some of them they they want to they want confirmation bias of what they're doing is correct as well because they don't want to comprehend that maybe some of the animals and pets they've had in the past haven't you know become ill because of bad practice and you can understand the psychology behind that as well but it's like you know okay so we we operated with the knowledge we knew at the time and and we just accept that we got it wrong when I you know when I first call aart I I hadn't latched onto the raw feeding at that point and know my last Terrier the first few years of his life I fed him kibble and and then when I realized I didn't try and find reasons to carry on feeding him kibble it's I changed his diet you know I wanted to do the best for him that I could for him going forwards and you know beat yourself up for for doing what you did up to a point but it's like you got to forgive yourself at some point and go well I did what I did in good faith at that point too you know I actually now got to move on and not you know and and do the right thing by by you know my old terrier and now boots and and that's that's all you can do um and don't get hooked up on on the mistakes of the past you know that we're to we are human we make mistakes we've just got to move past them and and strive to be as good as we can possibly be and you know I've always had an interest in my own health and always people used to laugh at me probably still do um and I say I'm now my aim is to die healthy because I don't want to be I don't want to go through the last 5 10 years of my of my age s you know crippled in pain can't walk and can't do this and can't do that it's like you know I want to go out having a party when I'm 150 years old you know because I think if you get it right that you know our lifespan can be that can be as you know the average is 120 I think they say don't they for for people so you know well I want to go beyond that um so but I want to be healthy beyond that as well um and that's the other thing with you know dogs or cats are living longer these days well how many of those years that they live that they're living how many of those are on medication um you know we we the idea of health is is is you know we can be fa self-supportive on that and and diet should be able and well it is capable of doing that for us if if we do it correctly um and you know I enjoy my food know I miss a curry at times but but but um you know I I'm I'm doing it because I'm investing in my future health not just what I'm doing now as well and certainly for our cats and dogs you know we we want to have the best relationship we can with with our pets then we should be investing in their future health as best we can now as well um you know and I think you know owners fundamentally want to do that but they're just taught that they actually you know they don't have the knowledge or they don't have the wherewith all and and actually it's there it's it's well known I mean Tom who's I think I mentioned earlier on who stood for Royal College elections you know he's written a couple books he wrote wrote One originally called raw meaty bones back in the 1990s to try and educate the veteran profession and you know he was up for that he he lives in Sydney and he was up for an award for the Australian veter Association and because his book was the only one nominated they decided not to give a prize that year um yeah absolutely and then you know he's just in the last couple of years he's written another one called uh the multi-billion dollar pet food fraud and you know we TR we we we had an early day Motion in Parliament back in 2005 where the parliamentarians called into question the voting profession for feeding commercial pet food nothing's happened as a result of that we've got another petition um which is which we've got now sort of trying to get get a a a debate in Parliament to as to you know whether you know we're we we're doing the best by our pets by by continuing to support feeding commercial pet foods and you know it's um you know we're just trying to raise awareness you know in whatever way we can so you know really appreciate you having me on here and today so that we can you know raise these issues and and you know make people think think wider and appreciate you know the whole Carnival diet for for all species that that for whom it is relevant of course yeah definitely well um you're more than welcome on it's been absolute pleasure um it's been great you know uh conversing with you and and um uh speed you off camera and um corresponding with you electronically as well uh Roger thank you very much for coming on it's been an absolute pleasure can you please tell us where people can can find you and follow you yeah I mean my my work we website is natural healings solutions. UK um that's probably the best place I've recently started a substack which you can link to from from that website as well um and you know try and sort of Spread spread the word and and and and get the information out there because information is power absolutely well I'll put that in the description people can check it out and please you everyone let let us know like down the description what you thought of the show and what uh what you feed your pets and what you're going to do with that as well so thank you everyone and we'll see you next time hey guys thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say if you like it then please like And subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast and if you're on YouTube then please hit that little bell and subscribe and that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out which should be every week if not more and if you could share this with your friends that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing thanks again guys