Walking Again After MS: Dr. Sarah’s Unbelievable Transformation

[Music] Hello everyone. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the Plant-Free MD podcast. I'm your host Dr. Anthony Chaffy and today I have a very special returning guest. Uh Dr. Sarah is coming back to tell us about her uh well give us some updates on how she's doing. Sarah, how are you? Good to see you. Good to see you, too. Uh I think it's been has it been 2 years? A year and a half. Since the first one. Yeah, could be. Wow. Yeah. I mean, obviously we've kept in touch since then, but the um the episode Yeah. may have been Yeah. a year and a half, two years. Yeah. So, if people that that don't know, well, people that haven't seen it, you should go back and watch. Um but Dr. Sarah uh took it upon herself to um treat her own MS and and and wasn't accepting of the very poor uh outcomes in involved with with MS and and what she was getting with standard of care and so she took it upon herself to to heal that. Maybe maybe just a brief um recap on on what that looked like and what you went through and and did um and then we can see how you've been since then. Sure. So, um I was uh I was doing a specific uh diet for MS um before I switched to carnivore. It was kind of out of necessity, I would say. I was having a lot of digestive problems. Um, and I saw things getting worse on the the dietary protocol I was on. So, it was an accident how I I stumbled onto carnivore and I um later met with a nutritionist and she said, "Oh, you're doing the carnivore diet." I said, "What?" I didn't know this was a thing that people were doing this. Um so I felt better when there was a professional guiding me I guess uh through that process and who was supportive. She's a holistic nutritionist and I was definitely a believer uh in the carnivore diet. I also had s highdosese vitamin D therapy uh the coinbar protocol which I'm still currently on and considered stable or at the dose that I would be maintaining for forever. So um I noticed with carnivore uh my symptoms my MS symptoms were gradually getting gradually got better and then just started to completely drop off which was has been really amazing and um unforeseen I would say. So, I I've been I think in October of this year, I think it will be three years since I've been doing carnivore. So, I think I'm two and a half years into it. Nice. Yeah, it's been very interesting to say the least. So, I've gotten a lot of questions. Yeah. Well, you you had had quite a miraculous recovery as well, and this is something that that we're seeing being replicated in other people as well. But, you know, tell us how how seriously was this affecting you physically and then um how long did it take before you started seeing improvements? Um, physically it was pretty bad. I I had things intermittently for a very long time. I would say over 10 years, but they went away. Uh, which is apparently normal for the relapsing remitting MS. Um, my family's not uh we're not very I don't I don't know what you would call it, doctor happy. We don't just go to the doctor. So, we're not we're not regulars. I don't I don't do the thing a lot of the things I guess I'm supposed to do like the checkout the annual all the stuff. So, um there's a stint of time without insurance and things like that and so have to really be in bad shape to go to the doctor. Um uh so I did um earlier in my 20s when I did have insurance I I think I saw every physician except for a neurologist uh to get checked for certain things and had been diagnosed with certain things. One of them was chronic fatigue which when I looked at that I was like was that really a thing? What is that like a syndrome? I wasn't you know really understanding of it. Um and I I had a really strong sense that it was dietary related. Um just because I never felt good particularly after I was eating and um so the journey really began with just not not feeling well and trying all it kind of experimenting with dietary things. Um, I noticed, uh, taking out gluten was really, really helpful. That helped my thyroid. They said I had Hashimoto's and all that went back to normal when I took out a gluten. Um, and the physician at the time said it must have been a fluke or that. So, I thought that was kind of funny. Um, so I was getting feedback along the way in terms of, okay, there's something to the dietary stuff. Um, it helped in terms of I felt a little bit better. I took thyroid medication for, you know, a little bit of time and then I I went off of it because I didn't I I had a very hard time accepting that I was going to stay on a medication forever. I just I didn't like it. I not very trusting of the the medical system in general. Um I sort of view the the medical system in the United States. I view the strength as the diagnostics, not really the treatment. Um so I try to, you know, think about it in terms of okay, I can use things to my advantage, but I don't have to necessarily follow the piece in terms of care. I'm just going to have to figure it out, I guess. Um, so it was it was over a 10-year journey trying to do all of those things. Um and then you know I came to a point where things started to get progressively worse and I was starting to have you know more extreme concerning uh MS symptoms like with difficulty walking, weakness in my legs and um strange sensory things that tended to be temperature related like taking a I took a really hot shower my left arm would go numb or the left side of my face would go numb. Um, strange uh strange things like that. I had optic nuritis. I had um some eye symptoms um spasticity in my legs usually like upon um waking up. The balance coordination stuff was uh probably the trickiest because I had three falls in the in the year that I was the same year I was diagnosed. I didn't get hurt. I just, you know, for for my age, I I knew that something wasn't right there because I was just regularly tripping and I was always on the same side. Um, so it was there were quite a few um symptoms, pain, dexterity, stiffness. Um, it was there were there were quite a few that and they were just seem to be getting um progressively uh more uncomfortable. Yeah. Hey guys, just want to take a second to thank our sponsor, Carnivore Bar. I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat. But for those times that you're out hiking, road tripping, or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat, fat, and salt if you want it, the Carnivore Bar is a great option. So I like this product not because it's just pure meat, but also because I want the carnivore market to thrive as well. And the more we support meatonly products, the more meatonly products there will be available in the mainstream. So, if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind, check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off, which also applies to subscriptions, giving you 25% off total. All right, thanks guys. you know and then after that when you you switched u to carnivore and taking the high dose vitamin D obviously the neurological symptoms improved but one of the one of the most shocking things I think to be a lot of people especially people who have treated MS or had MS was that on MRI these lesions started to actually not only just stop getting worse but they actually started getting better didn't they? Yeah. So I was really surprised. Um so the yeah the spinal cord lesions largely faded and so right when I saw that I was like wow and that's like actually that's tracking well or corresponding with my symptoms too. So I found it believable. It's funny when I started the highdose vitamin D which is guided by a functional medicine physician who um he's trained to use that uh protocol to reverse uh autoimmune symptoms in general but MS um and he told me um if if memory serves he told me at the beginning that he said it was around six months that he that he start the patients start to improve and he told me that you know he expects to see differences on the MRIs which is so when act when that actually happened I was like oh my gosh what I was saying was true so it was I was doing those things alongside the the carnivore diet so I kind of had multiple interventions happening at the same time if that makes sense Mhm. And the um and the so the intervention what is what is the purpose of the highdosese vitamin D? What's that trying to achieve? Sure. So um if we look you know at the literature pretty extensively we see regularly over time with the research um we see uh defects on the vitamin D receptor in autoimmune conditions. Um, so there's some kind of I think they call it a polymorphism. Um, and so really it's like increasing the pool of vitamin D. It's very similar to maybe what you would see with like um SSRI or something. That whole concept, right, where you're you're increasing the pool of the neurotransmitter um by preventing a re-uptake. So, you know, kind I kind of look at it. kind of analogous to that or at least that's how it looks in my mind or how I think about it. Um so you're really um the the premise behind this protocol is that vitamin D is your immune system. Um and so it functions like a corticosteroid in the body. Um and it's more like a hormone than a vitamin. Um, and so the idea is that people with these autoimmune diseases have a defect on the vitamin D receptor. So they may need to take extraordinarily high doses of it. Um, and and what happens is or what theoretically happens is then it kind of corrects course with the immune system. So um the immune system stops attacking the self. Um, so it's a way to cor I I think about it as a way to correct a confused immune system. Yeah. And there was I remember you saying as well and I I um meant to ask you this previously as well. Yeah. Can't remember if I did, but it was like talking about you know the parathyroid hormone and that's being affected. You want to take enough of this to to keep that parathyroid hormone low. What do you did they tell you what the thought was behind that? Yeah, it has something to do with calcium regulation. Um because vitamin D drastically increases the amount calcium absorption in the body. So sorry, one second. Just let me sorry give me give me two seconds. Sorry. Sorry about that. just um had to take a quick break to take care of that phone call. But we were talking about um how taking vitamin D affected uh parathyroid hormone and uh and and why this might benefit uh someone with MS or other autoimmune issues as well potentially. Right. So, um, my understanding is that the goal is to have enough vitamin D to where it pushes the parathyroid down between levels six and seven. And once that is down to that level, you're at the vitamin D dose that you'll be on. So, it can take up to two years to do that. and I had been getting lab work every uh three months um to look at where I was with that. So it requires a low calcium diet. So basically probably less than 20 to 20 20% 25% of like the daily value. So it's you know some but very little because of the how much the uptake of calcium increases with the vitamin D the absorption of it. So, so that's my understanding um of how it works when the the doctor explained it to me. Great. Yeah. And um did they say and that was just so basically that that's the the way to track how much vitamin D you actually need as opposed to like looking at vitamin D levels, right? He never takes vitamin D levels. He said they don't matter. They're based off the population average anyway. True. Um so it's really really looking at that parathyroid level to know okay this is basically this is how much you can take and it's to try to basically push it to that max and then keep the parathyroid at that that safe level between six and seven. It's really low. Um so that's you know there's people taking several hundred,000 IUs a day. Um I take uh 78,000 a day. Um, yeah, it's not, it sounds like a lot, but well, which it is by dose, but also it's liquid, so it's not it's comes out to like a tablespoon. It's not really like taking, you know, all these tablets or anything. It's liquid. So, um, it's pretty, uh, and it's it's a nonprescription type. Um, so it's D3. So it's important to actually take the active form um of D so you don't have to deal with any conversions from the D2 D3 um which is really what's found in like when people talk about there being vitamin D and mushrooms and things like this. It's really like an inactive trace amounts sort of really know how much you're getting. So, um, yeah, it's pretty interesting. Yeah, it is pretty interesting. And so, well, since then, what have what are some of the updates that have been going on since, uh, since we saw you last? Oh, geez, there's been a lot. So, the biggest, uh, I would say fatigue, my improvement in fatigue has been really great. And the fatigue with MS was uh I mean very severe. It's also something that I had struggled with for a long time and I just thought you know I described it as an accelerated aging process myself and I know that's pretty common description for MS. So you feel old and tired and slow and lethargic and no, you know, cognitively zapped. So it's sort of like going through life. It's kind of like a zombie like state, I guess. Uh that's how that's how I experienced it anyway. So when those layers of fog started to just peel away, I actually I I was not aware of how fatigued and how much brain fog I had because I gotten so used to it. And I thought, "Wow, that is just so sad that that was my norm." Because I, you know, you you can't really see it. It's like trying to uh teach a fish the nature of water, right? Uh so how are you going to know if this just this process of you know this is your your sense of normaly? Um, so I really started to feel better um, in my digestive tract and I everything started to gradually improve and my energy levels were that's what I've been very very grateful for because it's not something I I don't I don't think I believed that that could improve it just you know to that to be able to have so much energy again and I went from sleeping ing 11 hours a day, which included naps. Um, and to six. So now I need 6 hours of sleep, which I just get up at I just wake up after 6 hours. So I don't take naps. Um, and so that's very different than what had been happening because I had gotten to a point, you know, with the MS where I was very I was very planned around the day because I knew once it hit, you know, 2:00 I was done, right? So, I had to be try to be as efficient as possible, which didn't go well. Um, but I just I ran out of reserves so quickly and then I would wake up and not I already wasn't 100%. So I just was tanked by the middle of the day. Um, and so not having to do that now and I I have all this extra time which is, you know, it's really actually it's quite amazing. So to go from 11 hours and then to to six and just wake up and be awake and be alert and have energy, it's not something um I would have ever guessed. So that's the that's the biggest I think that's the improvement that has been the biggest um quality of life factor because even if I had all those other things going on okay that might makes make something a bad day uh but I could still effectively participate in the day if I had more energy and wasn't feeling lethargic and things like that. So um but those other things have largely improved too. The balance coordination um I went back to dancing uh ballet. Yeah. Great. Yeah. So it's it's quite there's been quite a lot of uh improve drastic improvements and I it's not something that I would have predicted at all. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's amazing. And I mean, yeah, just going from 11 hours of sleep to to six hours of sleep. You just got five more hours in your day and you're presumably more alert during that because if you have to take a couple of naps during the day, you're tired leading up to that and you okay, I need to sleep and um so that they're probably not the most productive hours. That was very hard. It was very hard because I I'm very um I have more of a type A personality and I like efficiency and goals and all of those things. So when those are gradually just kind of dying, right? It was it was very hard. It was very hard to look at that. Um, and there's a book, um, I think it's called At Your Best, and it's about how how to allocate time throughout the day based on knowing when you have the most and least amount of energy. Um, and I I read that recently and I was like, "This is really amazing." So, you know, in terms of how to structure the day and it's it's something that I could actually use now that I have more energy Um, so it sort of feels like I I had all of these improvements and it's just I'm very grateful because I wasn't expecting this is just kind of a giant experiment, right? It's like a like a last resort. So it's like, okay, I guess what do I have to lose at this point? Because I'm like, you know, my body's like falling apart. I'm having difficulty walking. I'm sleeping. So like, well, you know, what the heck? give it a try. So, yeah, that's funny. Well, it's it's I'm It's not funny when you're going through it. That's for sure. Oh, it was pretty devastating. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to look back on that and um sort of think about your mindset and be like, "Whatever, whatever. I try 10,000 IUs of vitamin C sounds great. Sure, let's do it." You know, just just eat meat. Fine. Fine. Whatever. Do something. Something has to change. Exactly. But you have to lose at that point. You just throw the kitchen sink at it. So Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's that's the way to do it. I mean, as long as it's safe, you know, and um you know, vitamin D is very safe. Like you say, there's people taking hundreds of thousands of IUs a day. Um and and people have done that even by mistake. there there are case reports in the literature of uh people that were taking hundreds and hundreds of thousands of IUs a day because they didn't know any better and not even treating anything in particular and um for months and just and didn't have any sort of delletterious effects. And so, you know, we we know that, you know, that vitamin D is very safe for much larger doses than we we take typically. And we know eating meat is safe. there's nothing harmful in meat and you're not missing anything. There are people entire civilizations that just eat meat. So, we know that's safe, too. Why the hell not try, you know, and um and see what happens? Yeah, I I agree. And I I noticed some definitely some differences in So, when I was in the hospital, I I got diagnosed with MS. I was in actually I was in went to the ER and they kept me there did all of the rule out tests all of the all the rheumatic they they you know ruled out all the rheumatic conditions um and everything under the sun. It was a whole battery of tests and then um the MRIs and I remember my B12 was like in the middle of range and um it was I think it was around 500 maybe. And I recently got my B12 taken and it's over 2,000 now. So much better. Yeah. that's better. Um, so it's very interesting how a big part of this process has taught me that um, you know, to continue looking further into, you know, what does a range actually mean? Who came up with this standard? Is it actually based on science? Um, those sort of things. Uh, that's that's a one of my big takeaways from this, I would say. Yeah. Um, yeah. And as your your your doctor told you, there's these things just run on averages. And this is something this is a drum I've been beating recently because it's really important to know like if we just if we just change this one thing um um if we just change that one thing, just like used optimal reference ranges as opposed to the average reference ranges, that would that would just revolutionize medicine all on its own. I mean just right there it would be it would be a massive difference. Um because doctors would have something to go on you know I mean we have all these you know known symptoms of of vitamin B12 of low vitamin B12 or these other sorts of things being a bit off and we know how important zinc and magnesium are and all these sorts of things. But then if you're using reference ranges based on an average and the average person has low B12 because 75 80% of calories in a western diet are plant-based. You know, it's mostly processed plants, but they're still plants and plants don't have B12. And so, you know, especially people that that have some meat in their diet, oh, I'm getting plenty of B12. You're not actually you're not getting nearly enough. And you're also blocking out the absorption because of the anti-nutrients in plants. And so that average is skewed. And so, you know, you're looking at an average, but it's actually deficient. And so, you know, we're um we're unaware of that. And so, if doctors were aware of that and actually saw just how low everyone was, you know, that they'd actually have somewhere a direction to go in. like your vitamin D is low as hell, your um your zinc is low as hell, your potassium is low as hell, your B12 is low as hell, like all these things are low as hell, or your hormones are all off because again, it's an average. You know, even even um Hashimoto's the antibodies, they they do that on averages as well. They say it's like, well, as long as it's as long as the antibodies are below this level, then it's fine. It's like that doesn't mean you don't have Hashimoto's. Like, you have Hashimoto. You have antibodies for this condition. That's the definition of an autoimmune disease. You have those, you know, termed auto antibodies. I don't think they are an auto antibod. I think the body's attacking something else that's attacking your thyroid, right? Like celiac, you know, it's gluten attacks your interases and then your body mounts response against that, damages the the villi and the microvilli. Gluten does that all on its own. And um your body's doing exactly what it's supposed to do, which is protect your body from that insult. But then when you remove the gluten um the the gut heals in four to six weeks completely and even though those antibodies stay elevated for over 3 years. So now you have active floating you know circulating antibodies but no damage. So obviously that's not an autoimmune disease that's that's something else. And so I think it's probably the same with other autoimmune issues, you know, like MS and and um and Hashimoto's etc. because it's um you know, you take these things away um even before you correct the vitamin D that the problem goes away and and people's symptoms start going down and start improving. You can see that very quickly with the gut autoimmune issues like Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis because the gut has such high turnover. it heals much more quickly, but those antibodies are up and um uh and yet the gut's healing and their and their issues are going away within within weeks. And um so yeah, so you know it's um yeah I think I think it's quite a bit different but you know when you're diagnosing these things and like I think that's a really good way of putting it that like western medicine is really good for the diagnostics but not necessarily the treatment and certainly acute care you know like that that we've got nailed down but um you know the treatment of of the chronic conditions not so much but you know you have this and you'll have that range and it says well below this much your TPO antibodies are in TG antibodies. Well, below that that's fine. You don't have Hashimoto's. Like, no, you just don't have a flare up of Hashimoto's, but you have the antibodies. That's the definition of of that condition, you know, and um and like you know, if you go on a carnivore diet and your antibodies come down to lower than that level, which I see happen all the time, that doesn't mean you don't have Hashimoto's anymore because as soon as you go off that and you eat something up, boom, they just go right up. And um so yeah, it's very strange like these these reference ranges. But if if we had more, you know, more normal reference ranges that actually denoted optimal health that this would be very different. It's in the what what is hard to I don't think it's hard to understand once you start to think more about human nature. Uh but if you look at the science, those things are in the literature regarding what which levels make sense. And then yeah, I see a lot of the research is not consistent with what the reference ranges are. Yeah. And yeah, exactly. And you know, I mean, yeah, you're right. I mean, this isn't this isn't like something that someone made, you know, made up, you know, was it was based on um, you know, very uh, you know, good data, much better data. You know, like the the reference ranges that are used are typically just the average. you know, first few thousand people that come in that year. That is the reference range. Um, some do better than others. We'll say, "Okay, well, we'll go from from 20 to 39." I saw this recently, actually, 20 to 39 and normal BMI right there. That's already an improvement. At least you're thinking like maybe there's some difference here in this population. We're not just going to put every any average Joe. Um, but okay, why? But there there, you know, quite a lot of people that have metabolic syndrome and diabetes, have normal BMI or cancer, you know, and all sorts of different things that can skew these numbers in all sorts of different directions. And um and it doesn't matter what your BMI is. You can be B12 deficient at any weight, you know, and so, you know, it's not um uh you know, and if you're Yeah. you know, malnourished, you're even more likely to be low on B12 and be skinny as well. So, you you have to So, there have been studies done um like in Germany and elsewhere where they they looked at people in their 20s, average age 25, normal BMI, but also no diagnosed medical condition. So, even then, you don't know if they're B12 deficient or whatever, but at least it's another step. It's like they're just not sick. They don't have diabetes. They don't have cancer. They don't have autoimmunity. This is just a nominally healthy population and um and that already is a massively different um set of reference ranges and uh and then for like specific nutrients like B12 or vitamin D or something. I mean there's people that have been studying this for decades and um and they've come up say hey look this is what we find is uh is the best range for optimal health. And when you have, you know, half of the reference range in or more than half of the reference range for B12 in most countries, um, aligning with levels that in in various, uh, studies have shown is actually causing serious neurological dysfunction. But you can get, you know, MS is a is a deminating disease. If your B12 is low enough, you can get demalination just from the low levels of MS and so you know and you can actually get shrink you know narrow you know thinning of your spinal cord and the gray matter or white matter starts to shrink um and your brain shrinks. So Oxford University showed that under 308 peak moles per liter of B12 that people's brains were shrinking by over 5% after in 5 years and um but the the deficiency level was under 150. So this is double that deficiency range and yet their brain shrinking and above I think it was below like 500 people's brains were still shrinking by 2.5%. So a lot of the reference ranges go up to like in in the UK some I've seen it at go up to 550 you know or 600 650 below 500 is such a profound deficiency that the brain you're getting brain damage and the brain is shrinking in volume as you can measure on MRI. So how could we possibly call that a normal or acceptable B12 range? But we are because of that average. And and so now so many people are getting neurological damage directly just from the B12 and however many other sorts of things that that are out of range. But especially when you're when you're dealing with something like MS, you you can't regrow you can't reminonate your your nerves unless you have better B12 levels. You'll get demolination. If anything, it'll keep going back down the other way. So I mean just that I mean just changing those reference ranges to use actual optimal reference ranges and so like every lab was you know in you know in conjunction with others then um you know right there you just like doctor just have a lot more to go on instead of having to learn those reference ranges ourselves and then say okay yeah these are all wrong this is the ones you want to use you know because that can be quite confusing to patients as well when you're saying yeah all these things are wrong and most of them get it but Um, it's still be nice, but it was just like barn door. Yeah, this is low. This is high. This is low. Hey everyone, really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show and for everybody down in Australia. Stockman Steaks, who are delivering highquality grass-fed and finished pasture-raised beef and other meats, flash frozen and vacuum sealed to your door. Something I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well. They also have a great range of specialty items such as highfat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver, kidneys, and beef art as well. So, use code chaffy today for a free order of beef mints or another specialty gift along with your order at stockmanstakes.com.au and I'll see you over there. Thanks, guys. Yeah, because then what are people supposed to trust? And I think a lot of people do trust their doctors, you know, and I don't doctor's fault, per se. I think they're educated in a system that is designed that way. Um, and and probably intentionally so. Um, if you look at what's happens with systematic nutrient deficiency, you get a lot of the illnesses too that we have today. Um, and it's kind of like the perfect crime, right? because you can't point to a villain in the story since know you were in the reference range. So, um if you know the reference ranges are inconsistent with a lot of the science, uh then you know you can I think leaving I think having reference ranges that are deficient. I don't think that that's an accident. Um but I don't think that it's the physician's fault. I think that's just they are kind of getting passed through the system um and they're perpetuating information that they've learned uh in medical school and you know I I question that information that they're Yeah. Well, and it is I mean they you know this wasn't this wasn't directly taught to my class anyway of just like oh by the way different labs use different ranges because it's all on average that that came about just randomly. We were at at the after class and was talking to one of the the professors that had like an interesting talk. I remember there's this group of us who were talking to him afterwards asking questions and and said that [Music] um said that um you know he he was talking about different reference ranges and it was just like oh well this is this and this and I was like and there's two numbers and there's a discrepancy I was like well hold on why why are those different why are those reference ranges different why are they saying that's normal and that one's not normal and it's saying oh well they because it came from different labs and I was like why why would that matter like why why would that change what what what levels are normal and they said oh well they just use averages that's just how they do it you know so um you know I was just like it was just like why he's like oh yeah they all just use averages so the average that comes in so the different people that will come into different labs all just be a different average it was all just very very matter of fact and and um it's like yeah that's normal that's just what they do but why why would that because you know it's like one of them was out of range and one was in range okay well then which one is you know, it's the same number. So, why would that be why would that be too low or too high, you know, and and um one of my patients was um got one of her other doctors like um was saying that something was out of range and she was like, "Well, no, actually these are these optimal ranges." And and he just like went out like told her off. He was one of those guys that was just like, "You know, you just you just listen to everything that I say and no talk back sort of sort of doctors." was horrible bedside manner sort of guys and like um and she was just like well why why would that going to different labs like it's going up and down and things like that and you know it's so like well you know depending on the on the region you're at you know that that matters your your environment matters for your blood test like no it doesn't like like why would like why would it matter also we're talking about in the same city the same town there's different reference ranges in pathology labs that are directly next to each other. So, it's the same environment, you know, very different uh reference ranges and and acceptable ranges. And um you know, if your B12 is, you know, uh 250, so you're in that dangerous range out of Oxford and um you know, and then you know, but at this lab, it says no, that's fine. That doesn't mean that it's fine. You're in that bad range. And if your if your B12 is and you know for instance like there was there's some reference there's some labs in the UK um that I that I for patients that I consulted with um and um they're the reference range went up to 550. So in Perth one of the labs go up to 650 and one goes to 750 and one goes to a,000. Okay. Well which one is it? you know, you you know, if you're if you're 900, you know, you'll be normal at one lab and and and uh and be toxic in two others. And then if you you know, if you're 600, so you're normal in all of those labs, but you fly to the UK the same day and you're still 600, now you're toxic. And it's just like just being in England makes you B12 toxic. It's like it's I mean, you know, if if the guy can think he wasn't that day, you know, but um you thinking that, oh, your environment matter, your environment change. No, it doesn't. That's stupid. And like it's just so dumb. But uh but you know, um yeah, so that that's that's very important. And um yeah, it would just change everything. It would absolutely change everything if we just actually used optimal reference ranges. I No, I would agree. I don't I just don't think it's designed Um, I'm I like I said, I don't think it's by accident that those are the ranges that physicians are given to talk to their patients about. So, I think it's it helps to maintain illness basically. Well, yeah, it would, wouldn't it? Yeah. I mean, by design or not, it it does. You know, if everyone's deficient in their nutrients and all these sorts of things, then you know, you're not going to be able out there. It would be different if it was difficult to find, but it's all in there in the research in terms of that's sort of why I believe that about okay well the all the information to help you is available but it's not actually being used um or taught. Um how is that not deliberate? um if if what your goal is to is to help people um it's it looks like negligence to me or you know um so like I said I you I tend to use um you know appreciate the medical system in the United States for diagnostics um you know those and lab works um which one I didn't mention was the DEXA scan so yeah I was going to ask. Yeah, I had a bone density scan. I think the one I got like it was must have been a year and a half ago. Um was the last time I got it and it was so my lumbar spine was negative 2.4. So basically right there for osteoporosis and then my femur and my hips were um were also at negative -2.4. And then I got recently I got the test again and so my spine uh definitely improved because it went down to negative 1.9 and I know being closer to zero is better uh for for bone density and then my hips were it slightly improves to -2.2 so I know it's a long larger bone so it may take take longer. Um, but I thought that was really interesting because I've been on, especially with the vitamin D protocol, I've been on very, very low calcium. Yeah. A lot of the calcium and upping K2 with meat and the D3 protocol, um, and being able to exercise again, it's really, I think, improved my bone density. So, um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's going in the right direction anyway. And you know, even with all these other things going on, it's uh it's improving, which is which is great to see. And and the you know, there's this there's this weird rumor going around. People get very stuck with these mechanistic sort of ideas. Well, if you look at biochemically, look at this. You're you're going to go down the wrong path if you if you just stick with that little thing. And so they look at this, well, this buffer system with calcium, and you're going to get acidic and acidotic, and you're going to buffer that with calcium. Like there's a number of different ways that your your body buffers your pH. It's not just calcium. And um and the fact of the matter is is that when you get rid of plants, you're getting rid of oxalates and you're getting rid of fitic acid and you're getting rid of all these other sorts of things that can block, disrupt, and prevent the absorption of of calcium and also strip out calcium from your bloodstream, which oxalates can do. And so you don't have that. And so the amount of calcium that you need for for homeostasis is very different. It's very different. And um and that's and and so there are a lot of factors that people aren't getting and you know and then they talk about all the different oh you're going to get constipated, you're going to get this like you don't actually know the first thing about what's going on and you've gotten all these things dramat demonstrabably wrong. So why are we going to believe you on that one too? And that's and that's just not what we see either. You mean we're seeing people reverse their osteoporosis with like like you you're you're explicitly avoiding calcium as much as possible for your MS treatment and um and yet and yet you're still putting on bone density and uh and others that that um you know embrace more of the the calcium they're you know they're they're reversing. I've had patients one patient she just went pure line diet just beef and water for eight months. um exercise, you know, very important for stimulus of the bones. And um she went from yeah, like full-blown osteoporosis to normal for a 25year-old um in 8 months, right? So massive difference. And you know, so people are saying, "Oh, you're going to get osteoporosis 20 years down the track." No, we're reversing osteoporosis right now, like this year. So like, you know, like what the hell are you talking about? Like that's just it's just your your theory is wrong. It's, you know, it's not that they're bad people and they're they're trying to do the wrong thing and hurt people. It's just that you got hung up on this mechanistic principle and you don't see all the other things at play like no oxalates or all the multiple other buffering uh mechanisms that your body has besides um calcium. Um so it's it's classic losing sight of the forest for the trees. you know, they're staring at this one tree and they're like, "This tree explains everything and you're just like, "No, there's there's a whole forest around you." And you're you're just being myopic. You're just like, "No, there's one tree. This is it." You know, and um and they just don't get it. They don't get they think that the only the only thing in the forest is this tree. So, well, actually, there's different trees, too. And uh they're they're not getting that. It's that's an easier thought process like it's more linear instead of considering the whole system which again I think is how the education is designed in the medical you know it's really not even things being broken up into these specialties right well I don't know anything about this so you have to go see this guy right and it's like oh but doctor right and so um it that's fair to have specialists who focus on different areas is um but not necessarily to the exclusion of knowing some basic things in the these other areas. Um and and so it seems like there's it's it's deliberately designed to be kind of compartmentalized, but I don't think that that's how the body actually works. So it's just, you know, a little bit it's a little bit different, I guess. So I I see that in terms of the system. And so, like I said, I just I think the diagnostics are super helpful. Otherwise, the care I want to kind of direct on my own. So, um I have noticed too carnivore. I've had family members with, you know, different ailments try it and have done well. I've had friends try it and do well and I know it could probably be very difficult to follow for some people. Um, so I guess it just depends on who you are and what your goals are. Yeah, definitely. Well, you know, and and at least just understanding that this is a this is a tool that's available, you know, both for clinicians and patients and that if you're not getting the results that you want with the standard of care, you can try these other sorts of interventions and even just looking at vitamins and minerals and nutrients and in from an optimal point of view as opposed to a good enough point of view as a reference range point of view, that could make a significant difference in in people's lives as well. And um you know I think well we are seeing people heal and regrow and repair and their bodies putting out bone density after the age of 25. The textbook says you cannot do that cannot do that like not not eat any at all after the age of 25. And yet here you are and you know you know thousands of other people are are seeing the exact same thing. So, we're we're starting to to relearn and rediscover how the body actually works. And, you know, and putting the body in the right position so it can heal itself because, you know, doctors don't heal much. We we put the body in to a position that it can heal. Even with surgery, you know, there's something that's offending, it's infected, it's growing and pushing. You remove that, you cut it out, you change things around a bit, and then you let the body heal. So, you put the body in the right position so it can heal. I mean, we're literally putting it together, you know, stitches. You're just you're just putting the body back together with with string, literally. And so, but you're letting the body heal. Like, we're not doing that, you know? We we can't make the body heal. The body is is making the body heal. And so, we just need to put it in the right position to do that. And so, you can do physiological surgery and and put the body in the right position with the right tools in order to heal. You can remove the insult in autoimmunity and you can then give the nutrients, the vitamin D, the B12, the the choline, the creatine, the carnitine, the cholesterol, the DHA, the EPA. Get all those things in there and then here you go and let the body do it. So, it's the same thing. You're you're you're just putting the body into a position that it can heal itself. And that and that's it. That's all you have to do. You know, you have to you have to be able to recognize that that's what you're doing and that that's what you need to do. It's a completely different approach to medicine as opposed to like, well, there's a drug that's got to have some little process that's going to came that's going to change normal physiology to to make some change that you want. And um and that can be helpful in certain situations, but really what you want to do is just put the body in the right position and just give it what it needs to get on with its its day. And and um you know, that's what we're seeing working for you and everyone else. And I think once we get like a critical mass of uh of actual literature and and published, you know, sort of cases on this um then then I think people are really going to wake up to this and that will really change medicine. I'm hoping that it does anyway and that it doesn't get suppressed. But thankfully with the internet, this stuff is disseminated um pretty widely and um and even if you drop all this stuff off the internet and they wipe it all off, people know about it, you know, and and they're going to just start making new videos and and and getting it out there and um you know, so the cat's out of the bag really and they're just going to have to they're gonna have to go with it. and and if they want to still make a big profit and do this or do that, then they need to figure out um products that are actually beneficial to people's lives and not selling everyone junk food that poisons us and then the medicines to take care of the the the damage that that causes us. Um, and if they don't, you know, hopefully they get loh left behind and the free market takes care of them and they just go away and uh and uh and other people come in and take their place with actual products that actually help people's lives. Yeah, I I agree with that. And I think um you know I think there is still going to be the majority of people who probably prefer um you know to take the medications and maybe not do something different with dietary. Um so I mean it's very hard to tell though what direction that might go in. Yeah. Well great. Well Sarah, thank you so much uh for taking the time uh to speak with us and give us give us updates. I'm really glad to hear that you're doing so well. Oh, actually one more thing I wanted to ask. Um, you mentioned K2. A lot of people take K2 with vitamin D3, but I didn't know because you're taking such large doses of what traditionally thought of as large doses of vitamin D. Is that coming along with the with the the same proportion of K2 or or what are you doing with that? Um, yeah. So, you take 100 micrograms of K2 for every 10 uh 10,000 units of vitamin D. So I take 800 micrograms a day. Um and I take 78,000 units of vitamin D. Um so it's yeah that's really um K2 helps to keep the calcium in the hard tissues where it belongs like the bone and teeth right and out of the soft tissues. Um so whereas you know D could obstruct that process. So, um, that's why it's paired with the high doses of K2, which I understand there's K2 in meat. So, uh, it works works out nicely. Um, the one final thing I wanted to add was I I think I'm very fortunate because carnivore um has been really easy for me. I think people didn't want these other foods and things, which is totally understandable, but it really simplified uh my life. A lot of my family, like a lot of people's, you know, there revolves around food, right? Like certain customs revolve around food. Um, but for me, I'm not really a foodie. So, this is just kind of you don't I I figured out along the way kind of what I need to do like to maintain muscle mass and, you know, keep weight on and those sort of things. And I do like I'm a healthy weight, healthy muscle mass, all of those things. But if it was up to me, I would just have probably one meal a day. Uh but I would be able to get by with that would I wouldn't be eating enough, right, if I if I did that. So I kind of have learned what works um in terms of how much and I was eating way the meat I was eating at the beginning of carnivore was way too lean. Um so now I know eating more fats is necessary and those sort of things. So very good. Well, great. Well, thank you so much uh for that. It was really great to um see your updates and and hopefully inspire more people to give this a try and just see, you know, it's not going to hurt you. Could very well help and uh that's the whole point. So, thank you very much uh for that. And any if you have any final final thoughts, you know, please do share. Um but uh I I know that you don't like sharing social media and things like that. So I I won't ask that. Oh, I don't actually have Yeah, I don't have social media. I have I have a communication um like I use YouTube and but I don't have like a I guess whatever the normal Facebook or I don't know what they're on now. There's like these kids are on these days what they're develop Snapchat and like Yeah. So, I think social media is um can be super helpful for people. I just it's just not my my thing. Yeah, I I personally hate it, but like yeah, it can can be very helpful to to disseminate information, but it's just it's just a time trap and and uh and you it's so addictive, you know, just these little dopamine hits and you just find yourself just constantly on it and you have all these different apps that that have you have messaging services, right? So you have different people messaging you on different apps and and constantly trying to think like well what app I need to check this I need to check that and do I have these messages I have to this and you're just constantly going and like you just can never just put the damn thing down cuz you're always thinking like you go through like five different apps but then you're like well what if there's something else I'm missing on the first app I got to go back and check that cuz it's been like an hour you know of checking all these other things and it's just and then you go back and you do that circuit again because you are getting you are getting responses and replies to the messages you just sent out and just like oh my and you just end up stuck on that thing. It's a lot. And I think you know I I think it was probably six or seven years ago I had the social media and I I got rid of it because um it was a little bit of an experiment also. Um, and I noticed that my in-person relationships got better because I felt like thing my relationships on social media were you you really it's an artificial sense of what's happening. You see photo you may have not really even had a real conversation with this person but you see photos of family and their children and then three years later it's like wow I haven't even talked to this person you know. Um, so that's really why I don't I don't use it, but I'm sure other people could use it successfully. Yeah. Well, I I I totally agree. I I noticed the same thing. I was like instead of calling people and and saying like, "Oh, hey, I wondered what how so and so is doing." And actually calling them and and staying in touch, you see the little update here and there on social media and you and you feel like you've been in contact with them when you actually haven't. And it gives this very superficial sense of connection with people, but it's it's very very very um misleading because you're not you're not connected with them and all of a sudden it's been like two years and you're like I haven't spoken to this person in two years and like what the hell is going on and uh and you you you just you drift away from each other, you know, and you don't you don't actually keep up with these interpersonal connections that are very important and that's you know that was things in um you know not that to say that this is what's going on. But you know, in different societies like in the USSR and China, they tried to break up these these community and family structures and community structures and and made the state everything and and and pin people off against each um you know played family members off each other. You know, like if you're if your parents are through teach kids, if your parents are doing things that go against the state, you need to turn them in. They're bad people. They're evil and they need to be they need to be taken out and all these sorts of things. So kids were ratting on their parents, you know, family members were ratting on each other's, neighbors were going ham on each other. Like in in East Berlin during the communist era, um it was estimated that three out of five um people were informants for the government and and and dobbing in everybody else, you know. And so social media sort of does a similar thing where it just sort of breaks down these social structures and you end up being very insular and you're isolated and you're just sitting there on your phone all day. You're not actually making any connections, any valuable connections and social uh connections and um I think it's very damaging. I don't not saying it's by design but it is happening and it is it is very damaging to people I think. I mean I definitely agree with that and it also but it's also served the function of containing people like if you think about you know people will complain the internet or the social media but they're not out you know 60s7s like where you have these masses of people right and and so it's effectively physically contains people but I'm not sure that it's thought about that way you know it's I'm going to go write a grievance on somebody's all versus I'm going to put together protest or and there's obviously still protests and things like that, but not to the same volume that there were decades ago for for things. And I I wonder if that's because a lot of that energy is just being channeled uh digitally. Um so yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean it whether it's on purpose or or not it it is happening and I think people just need to take the responsibility to sort of limit that as much as possible understand social media is not real life and um and definitely keep your kids away from it far away from it as for as long as possible like Jesus and um yeah so all right well Sarah thank you so much it was great to see you as always and um yeah hopefully we can do it again soon. All right, thank you and likewise. No problem. All right, thank you everyone for joining. If that was helpful for you, please do let us know what you think in the comments. And if you know someone who uh may benefit by this, please do share with them and on social media. Thank you all very much and we'll see you next time. Hey guys, thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say. If you like it, then please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast. 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