You’re Not Sick — You’re Just Metabolically Trapped | Ben Azadi

[Music] Hello everyone. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the PlantFree MD podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Anthony Chaffy, and today I have a very special returning guest, Mr. Benadi, who uh absolute pleasure to talk to again. Ben, thank you so much uh for coming out. Anthony, thanks for bringing me back, brother. I love the work you're doing. I'm grateful for our friendship. And round two, we're going to have some fun today. Absolutely. So, Ben has just uh come out with a new book or that's coming out and um and we're talking about it now. This is this is not just a keto book. It's a carnivore book. It's not a niche book. This is something that's that's designed to hit hit the masses and and to talk to people, talk to the the majority of people that are eating the standard American diet, the standard European diet, the standard Australian diet, and and let them know why maybe switching it up. uh and and thinking about these other other methods of of eating or a good idea, maybe not being so afraid of meat and things like that. Uh so Ben, please um if you for people haven't come across you, maybe give a bit of an introduction and and let us know about your book. Yeah, absolutely. I would be happy to. So I've been in the health space now for 17 years. I entered the health space in 2008 after my own personal experience of being obese physically and mentally for 20 plus years of my life following that standard that good old standard American diet. Uh as a kid my mom worked at two Kentucky Fried Chicken. So she brought me home good old fried chicken and our favorite seed oils. And I lived a very unhealthy lifestyle as a kid. Um really really unhealthy. So I had food addiction, drug addiction, video game addiction, a lot of addictions. And I was physically obese. So in 2008, I went through this incredible transformation where I lost 80 lbs in 9 months. Completely transformed my physical uh um appearance, but my also my mental health improved tremendously. A lot of a lot of those suicidal thoughts I had started to go away and they're completely gone now. And it really started with the food that I ate. I just started to eat real food, move my body. It was not necessarily keto or carnivore in the beginning. it sort of evolved into a keto carnivore approach over the years. So, uh, I've been in the space now for those 17 years. I've worked with close to, uh, 10,000 people that I've taken through my academy and worked one-on-one as well. And I started to fall in love with keto and fasting back in 2013. At this time, I was owning operating a CrossFit gym here in Miami. I owned a CrossFit gym and I was transitioning from a a plantbased diet, the opposite of what we teach now, which is a vegan diet. And it it really did a lot of harm to my health. It wrecked my hormones. It was taking me so long to recover in between workouts. So, I did a plant-based diet strict for 15 months in 2013. And then I started to think, uh, I don't feel great. Let me do some lab work to verify how I feel. And it showed why I didn't feel so great. Hormones were wonky. low testosterone, just I was awful. I was inflamed. So then I started to do some research and I started to get into uh ketosis and and fasting and I applied both keto and fasting. It really took my health to a whole another level and that's where I started to really uh teach about keto and I created keto camp with the K and created all these programs and since then I've written some books along the way and recently um I wanted to write a book on the metabolism and Anthony there were three key studies that really convinced me to write a book on the metabolism for the masses. The first one was a actually a 2016 study from the Mayo Clinic which was set out these researchers set out to determine how many Americans live what they consider an active healthy lifestyle and they based it off of four criterias. The first criteria was that they don't smoke cigarettes. The second criteria was that they exercise moderate to vigorous exercise for at least 150 minutes total per week. The third criteria was that they eat what they consider a a healthy diet, which in this scenario is just a minimally processed diet. And the fourth criteria was if they're a female, they have a body fat percentage under 30% and male under 20%. And the study concluded showing that only 2.7% of Americans fit that criteria, dude. Wow. That's it. You're probably not surprised because you see it, but dude, that is a very small percentage. And this is before COVID. This is before all the lockdowns and what we've seen the last five or six years. And then of course in 2018, this is a study you've referenced, the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill study showing around 88% of American adults are what they consider metabolically unhealthy. And then in 2022, which is a more recent study, showed it's closer to 93%. So after seeing these studies and actually seeing it with my eyes living in the US, I I decided, all right, I want to write a book on the metabolism. I want to show people why it's not healthy to be stuck burning sugar and why a lot of these these metabolic uh issues including diabetes, pre-diabetes, PCOS, and eventually things like cancer, heart disease, these individuals are are sugar burners. They're stuck burning sugar. They forgot how to burn fat. And that's a big problem. So, the book talks about the main causes to metabolic dysfunction. It starts out with the first half going into why burning sugar as your only fuel source is not a good idea. why and how environmental toxins disrupt your circa excuse me your metabolism, a chapter on poor circadian rhythm. So, it's all about the causes and then the second half it's about the solutions and then it's tied together in a in a 30-day protocol. And you mentioned it's not necessarily a keto book or a carnivore book, but I do emphasize the importance of eating animal protein in the book. And there is a chapter on keto uh in the book because I think it's so important. But dude, that's why I wrote it and I'm excited. The book comes out May 13th. We have Anony's favorite night shade on the cover, which is a nice capsain red pepper here, but it's smashed, right? So, you could leave that to your interpretation. Am I saying to eat it? Am I saying to destroy it? I don't know. Let's see. You got to read the book on it. Yeah. That's awesome, man. And I mean I think I think it is great that that you doing something that is applying this and making these arguments to people to um you know that not preaching to the choir and things like that. You know people that that you know um it's it is interesting making making these sorts of like oh hey this is this is why I do carnivore and here's some of the evidence and things like that. And there there's some really good books like like that and it can help people think about the evidence and and why this might be a good idea for them. But it is it is really important to to sort of meet people where they're at as well. And and some people are not ready to make that that leap. I mean even to go like full ketogenic or something like that. But even just getting people off processed foods, even getting, you know, even just increasing the amount of meat, understanding that it's not bad for you and that it is quite necessary, that's going to make a huge impact for a lot of people and probably the majority of people because the majority of people probably aren't quite ready to to make that full leap, you know. And I even I can talk to people. I spoke to someone the other day that was saying that he was really interested in carnivore was like it's just like getting in my head was just eating meat, salt, and water. I I this it's not possible for me to do that for a lot of different reasons. After talking to him for a while, he he then came around like, "Okay, screw it. I'm doing But like um you know you can't have that one-on-one sort of conversation with with the entire world you know and so a lot of people just have to be in you know so you have to try to make improvements for everybody where they're at you know even just people that are that are plant-based and thinking they're doing right but then maybe think like well actually like why aren't I as healthy as I should be why do I still have these metabolic issues? why why can't I lose the weight um unless I starve myself and and really don't get any calories and then look emaciated and malnourished. Um well it could just be that you're not giving your your body the nutrients it needs and it's can just you can just sort of help steer people slightly different way. So it's that's great that this sort of book um is coming out. Thank you. Yeah, well said. And yeah, I want the book to be a gateway to carnivore, right? That is the goal, right? I am predominantly carnivore myself. I love I love eating meat. I feel really good. It's something I teach a lot of my students to do. But to your point, most people are going to feel there's going to be some resistance if we tell them to go from eating a standard American diet to just eating meat. So, I want this to kind of be that gateway where they start to get more metabolically healthy. They do use keto in the we do use keto in the book as as part of the 30-day plan. And then what's next, right? And that's usually the carnivore approach. That's usually the what we've seen over the years. low um uh standard American diet, more paleo, low carb, keto, and then end you end up at carnivore, right? So, I want to help with that sort of four-step process, especially for the masses. But with that being said, like I know a lot of your audience, viewers, and listeners are already carnivore or keto, you'll still get a lot from the book, right? I go deep into the science of why uh high levels of insulin destroys your body, uh high levels of A1C. So, we get into the mechanisms at play here. Um, it's a great book to gift to somebody who you want to get into the low carb, keto, eventually carnivore lifestyle. So, there's a lot to take from it, whether you're a beginner or somebody who's advanced. There's a 30-day protocol at the end of the book, and I put two protocols together. Somebody who's brand new, standard American diet, here's what you do for 30 days, and somebody is already doing keto and fasting. So, there's more of an advanced protocol as well. And you could customize that to a carnivore approach. Yeah. Nice. Hey, I was thinking the same thing that um that you know this would be good for for people whose family was just like you know giving them like you know like a straight up carnivore book just like a bridge too far like I'm I'm not reading that you know I can't do that you know this just but you know but just having that argument just like look processed food is is [ __ ] I mean this stuff is awful and the stuff is toxic we're poisoning ourselves and uh and just understanding that even even just getting that much you just cutting out the processed food and the the man-made made foods, you know, the seed oils that never don't exist in nature. You have to you massive industrial chemicals and processes to to actually just create this stuff. It's not just pressed oil from a plant, you know? I mean like I mean that that they have some things to that that that I I I don't think are the best. But at the same time at least it's not that at least it's not you know that this industrial product that you know you know is the old saying that that humans are the the only animals smart enough to make our own food and the only ones dumb enough to eat it. And I think that's completely true. where you it's that old adage that that that you're so sharp you'll cut yourself, you know, and you're so clever like, "Oh, look at all this stuff I figured out." And it ends up leading you down the very wrong path. You end up really hurting yourself. And I think that's I mean, it's clearly what we've done, you know, we've invented food. We've invented things that we call food that aren't food. This isn't food. Um, we eat it. Just because you put it in your mouth and chew does not make it food. You know, you can do that. You can do it with dirt. You can do it with feces. it doesn't make it food, right? But um you know, so it's um you know, we have to understand that this stuff is hurting us. So even even just that is um is is a huge step for people. And so you Yeah, like you say, like a sort of a gateway drug to, you know, something more, but but even then, it's going to make a huge difference. You know, just getting rid of processed food. I I have to say I cannot imagine you as obese. I mean, you're like you're such like like a slender fit guy. Like I just I can't I can't picture that. Like I'll send you I'll text you some photos. You're right. Most people say the same thing. Like, "No way. You were obese." But yeah, dude. 250 lbs, 34% body fat. Now I'm 6'2. I carry I carry it well, but I was classified as obese with those metrics. Um now I'm a lot healthier. Um I'm actually I actually feel the healthiest I've ever been at age 40. Much healthier than I was 24. But yeah, dude, I was obese for 20 plus years of my life. Um, so look, if I can do that, if I could overcome it and lose the weight and keep it off, anybody can do it. Uh, I know I was young when I did it, but the body is amazing. There's some things you can do. You just got to remove the interference. It will heal itself. Hey everyone, really happy to announce a new sponsor for the show. And for everybody down in Australia, Stockman Stakes, who are delivering high quality grass-fed and finished, pasture-raised beef and other meats, flash frozen, and vacuum sealed to your door, something I've been enjoying a lot of myself recently as well. They also have a great range of specialty items such as highfat keto mints and carnivore beef and organs mints with liver, kidneys, and beef heart as well. So, use code chaffy today for free order of beef mints or another specialty gift along with your order at stockmanstakess.com.au and I'll see you over there. Thanks, guys. Absolutely. And um you know to that, you know, we talk about those things as like a gateway and transitioning and trying new things. you you did an experiment and you know that's something that that that we were talking about before uh we started recording was that you're not dogmatic about these things. You you know you go in and out of of keto but you're always eating clean foods. You're always eating healthy. You're not you don't go eat in and out of eating junk food you know things like that. So it's always clean foods. It's always it's always whole foods. And um uh but you know you did do an experiment where you you went full carnivore, didn't you? Can you tell us about that? Yeah. And you know, over the last few years, probably since 2018, I would do like 30 days of carnivore, 45, 60. And then last year, I decided to do, all right, I'm going to do 90 days. And 90 days straight, I'm going to do I'm going to test as well and get some data. And of course, this is my own personal end of one experience, but I want to get some data. So on day one, I did comprehensive lab work. Um, uh, of course, I did my thyroid panel, full thyroid panel. I did my full lipid panel with the NMR looking at particle sizes, inflammatory markers, hormones, CBC. I mean, full full blood work. And then I also did a stool test on day one to look at my gut microbiome and diversity and different bacteria relationships. I put on a continuous glucose monitor, although there was nothing really exciting there because my glucose levels were just stable the whole time. Yeah, exactly. There was nothing really exciting there. And then I of course looked at my uh Aura Ring stats looking at heart rate variability, deep sleep, um REM sleep, how many times I was getting up at night compared to when I was not doing carnivore. And I went full in 90 days. And it was interesting. Um there was a lot of interesting moving pieces here. The first thing that I noticed uh personally without looking at the lab work was that I started to get better sleep. Uh my deep sleep and REM sleep was was increased. Uh I was waking up less times throughout the night. Not that I was waking up a ton, but it cut that uh dramatically. So, I was getting more restful sleep. I had more energy. Uh what was interesting, Anthony, I already thought I was pretty lean when I started doing this, but I lost 16 lbs in 90 days, and 6% body fat, but the muscle mass stayed the same. I I I have the InBody skin, so the muscle mass didn't go down. It wasn't muscle. It was mostly body fat. So, my abs were just more visible during that time frame. I didn't realize I needed to do that, but my body, I guess, needed to do that. The most interesting part was the stool test because when I got my results back from day one, the results came in about 3 weeks into the carnivore experience experiment. And the report showed that my diversity was average. My gut microbiome diversity was average. It wasn't poor. It wasn't amazing. It was average. And the recommendations on that lab report was to eat less keto foods, less meat, more plants, more vegetables, more polyphenol rich foods. pretty much like a predominant predominantly like plant-based diet with a lot of fiber to increase the diversity. Well, I did the complete opposite because I'm doing carnivore. So, I went 90 days and then I retested that same stool test. And you would think, not you, Anthony, but most people would think that, man, your gut's going to look destroyed. You did the exact opposite of what most gut microbiome specialists would say to do, including this company. And actually, my diversity increased after 9 days, 90 days, excuse me. my keystone bacteria. I had five keystone bacteria show up on day 90 that did not show up on day one. I had seven core bacteria show up on day 90 that did not show up on day one. Acromancia increased. The bacteria relationships uh uh were improved as well. So everything in my gut microbiome improved after 90 days doing the complete opposite. So uh I want to get your thoughts on that and then I want to share a little bit about the blood work and what I saw with that. Yeah. Well, I I I think it's fantastic. Um, you know, having that that point of data and people, well, it's an N of one, but well, we have we have N of one times 10,000 at this point because a lot of people are doing this and finding very similar results and and the argument is, well, you're eating a bunch of processed food and garbage. Now, you change it. No, you were eating a very clean diet. you're eating very for over a decade you're eating very clean uh omnivorous diet including meat but also including a lot of fibrous plants and that's the whole point they say oh you should eat a lot of high fiber plants because that fiber is so good for the microbiome um compared to what because if if if you're comparing it to the standard American diet that most people are eating uh then you know changing that to a more whole food approach getting some you know fruits and vegetables that that have fiber in you're not just adding those things that have fiber, you're also replacing the other garbage things that maybe aren't so good. And so you have an improved microbiome that has has an and we we don't know all that much about the microbiome. I I work with a um a guy in in Perth. He's an ICU specialist. He's, you know, intensivist and um but he's also a researcher. I mean, that's his that's his main gig is doing research on the microbiome. He has over 200 peer-reviewed publications on the microbiome. And I was talking to him about this and what he knows. It was just basically it was just like, "Yeah, I think it's really big. I think once we figure out what the hell is going on and and and all this stuff, I think we're going to really understand a lot more about human disease." It was just like, this is a guy with over 200 publications. He's saying, "We don't know, Jack." and but but I think it's big and once we figure it out you know then then I think it's going to be you know very very telling but you know that I mean that's from a horse's mouth I mean this guy is one of the world's experts in this and he's saying clearly we just don't understand this well enough at the moment but I think it's very important and so you know the idea that we we just know perfectly how to manipulate this stuff and oh yeah let's add more fruits and vegetables and fiber and all that sort of stuff probiotics and that'll solve everything that's it yeah except that, you know, those those studies have come out now that probiotics are actually uh horrible and and don't do any good. I I spoke to a researcher. He's a gastronurologist down in Perth and he actually did um his his lab was hired by a probiotics company uh to to do a large scale study because were shorter like a very small like six person something like that study, you know, not powered high enough. You can't get any real information off that showing that their product was good. were like, "Oh yeah, look, studies have shown and but now they they they knew that that was [ __ ] So they wanted to get like a bigger study." And so they hired um this guy to do that. I met him at a conference and um and he was saying that that so it was a large scale well-designed study and it showed that like no, it doesn't help. It wasn't any good. And um and so they were getting ready to publish it and uh they got letters from lawyers saying that like if you publish that, we're going to sue you. like this is our property and we paid for it, we own it, you can't you can't use it. And so we was like, "All right, so the the abstract is out there, but they they couldn't publish actual full study, but subsequently there have been um publications showing the exact same thing." So this is reproducible that this is this doesn't really do much. Um, you know, the other thing too is that is that, you know, people forget that there are entire civilizations that that eat this way or eat like a, you know, more natural animal-based sort of diet like the Inuit and the Messiah. Uh, I don't know if they've studied the Messiah um, guts, but they get no fiber, but you there have been some on the Inuit and they've actually shown very diverse and healthy microbiome, you know. So, you know, I imagine that, you know, if you're eating what you're supposed to eat, you're going to have the microbes and microbiome that you're supposed to eat, just like the oral biome, a very different oral biome when you eat this way, too. You don't get cavities as such and other sorts of things. Animals in the wild, they've got teeth. They've got all these bacteria in and around them that are not causing harm, right? Because they're they're appropriate to them and that species. They don't have dentists, they're not, you know, sterilizing their mouth every day, you know, every time after they eat. And uh and yet, you know, they're the only animals that don't have teeth right out. We're the only, you know, they're they all don't have their teeth right out. We all have our teeth right out except the ones living in the wild that don't have dentists and don't have people telling them, "Well, you have to eat this way or whatever." Right? Fine. Um some eat more sugar. That was an interesting one. looking at the Hodza who eat more honey and the men who are out there getting more honey, they actually have worse teeth than the women because women get less honey because they don't bring as much back. They eat it while they're out. And um and so that could be something there too. But you know, the thing is is that you know when you're you it's interesting you say well the you got these new new species and strains. Yeah. And um you know and and so why is that? You know, I think it's the oral biome. I think that the bacteria in your mouth do change and you know every bite that you're chewing up, bacteria from your mouth do get in that food and and go down in with that bololis of food. Now if you're just drinking a probiotic or something like that or you just eat spoonfuls of yogurt, that's going to go in your stomach acid. That's all going to get destroyed by and large. But if if you're eating it with the food, it could work in, this is theoretical, could work in, but how else how else is it doing it? um work into the food and sort of get get mixed into the middle of that bowl of some food and sort of like a Trojan horse be able to sort of get a few of those by the guards, you know, and so that's what I would expect is happening because otherwise, you know, maybe they're just they're they are there, but they're just in such small supply they didn't show up on the microbiome test. That's possible, too. But it's it's out of one of those two, you know, unless you got like a fecal transplant you're not telling us about. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't do that. Although I'm not opposed to it, but I didn't do that. Um, yeah, that's interesting. Or the oral microbiome. That makes sense. I also think maybe the this the stress like it's it was a dramatic well, not a dramatic change for me cuz I was eating mostly clean as you mentioned, but I did switch to no carbohydrates, no plants, and I was having that before. So, there was an adaptation period. So maybe the stress could have forced this back the bacteria to to multiply or increase the diversity because I know there's studies that show fasting does it fasting increases diversity because of the stress. I think maybe that I shifted into a 90 straight days the stress the positive stress of course might have contributed to the diversity as well. That was one of my thoughts. Yeah. Well, you know, in fasting too, what's interesting about that is that it it does it does the same sort of thing in principle as as eating, you know, like a more, you know, just just clean call it an eliminate elimination diet, but but a straightforward diet like a carnivore diet where you're you're breaking down and absorbing 98 plus% of the meat that you're eating. So very little is getting through there and and it's only getting through what is, you know, what I feel is biologically designed for us. And so, you know, the the microbes eat you know what we eat and um but the thing is too is that you know if you're eating a bunch of fiber, a bunch of plants, a bunch of those things you can't digest, you can't break down, those will get into the colon and then that will that will propagate and support uh other bacteria that wouldn't be able to uh you sort of uh uh you know come to dominance, you know, in that environment otherwise because they didn't have they wouldn't have like the the rich food supply and resources. Um, and so fasting is going to, you know, so you know, doing an elimination diet, if you want to call it that, like carnivore, getting rid of a lot of things. And so that's going to select for certain bacteria, but also fasting, you're also eliminating a lot of these sorts of things. And so all of those same bacteria that will be selected out because they don't have enough resources, they're all going to go away. And these other ones that can survive in that environment will come up, too. So that's that's interesting as well. And um I just really like that um you found these improvements after over a decade of really healthy eating by you know by anybody's standard besides a vegan and um you know that you were eating clean whole foods being very very careful about you know you know what you ate and how you ate you know doing you know fasting you know periodically very slim very healthy all these different you know biomarkers you know showing that and and then you went to carnivore and you and you found other improvements as well on top of that. It's exactly what I found. I' I've never eaten processed junk food. Um we would have occasionally get get something like that. I mean, I think I' I could probably count on one hand how many times I've had KFC in my life. Wow. You know, now if you say about Popeye's chicken is going to be more than that. Probably two hands. But, you know, but still it's not all that much. But um but either way, you know, I when I when I went and I was already, you know, I just noticed that eating cars when I ate anything with carbs, my back hurt. And it's just like I didn't like my back hurting. It was just like in pain. I was like, "All right, that's weird. I'm just going to avoid that stuff." And um so I was just eating just vegetables and and lean meat. You're supposed to eat lean meat and not that much. I was trying to slim up. And um a lot of vegetables, not a lot of meat. So, I was plant-based, right? But, um, it was, uh, I did feel good. It wasn't great. It like I was fully inflamed, couldn't lose weight, tons of water weight, tired all the time, stomach hurt all the time, was always hungry. I just didn't feel good. And then, you know, when I flipped and just dropped all the plants, all the vegetables, and went from eating a little bit of lean meat to a buttload of fatty meat, that it just changed everything. And so, you know, the argument is is that the only benefits that carnivores get is just that contrast from going from processed food to um you know, dropping processed food. It's just it's completely made up, you know, but that that has to be true for their ideology to work. And so they just say that they state that without any evidence being asked for or provided and uh and then people believe that just because oh well this this guru that I that I know and love they they say that so it must be true and it needs to be true or else I'm living a lie. So it's very easy to believe those lies. Uh but it's not true and it's just like I never did that. You weren't doing that. And we saw these these improvements in those sorts of ways. So yeah, I I really like that that um you know that that people are showing that again and again that it's not just not just about the processed food. The processed food is horrible, but it's not just about that that actually there there are benefits even on top of that. Exactly. Yeah. And and me and you are perfect examples of that. We were already eating healthy and we got more benefits going to a animal-based approach. I know I sure did. And ever since I did that 90-day experiment, I've been doing more mostly carnivore. My my current routine has been actually Monday through Saturday, I am full on carnivore and Sunday, I get out with more of a low carb approach. That that works for me personally. Um, so that I've been doing that ever since. And I I feel incredible. Like I said, four years old and I feel the healthiest I've ever felt in my life. What was interesting too though, Anthony, was the the lab work. Now, of course, when I did my labs, I was pretty healthy on day one. Nothing like my my C reactive protein was under 0.5 on day one and also on day 90. Homoyine was single digits. My fasting insulin was 3.2 and then 3.1. So it was already insulin sensitive. But the most so my labs were great. The most interesting thing though on the labs was the lipid profile. And um for those who are interested, by the way, I I made a whole um YouTube video where I show all my lab work. I show the gut test. I even had Dr. Philip Pavatia review the lab work and others and we kind of interpret it's like an hour video. So you could just go to YouTube and type in Benazati carnivore. It's usually the first video that pops up. But with the lipids my total cholesterol was already high uh according to normal standards. Uh on day one it was around um if I remember correctly it was around it was over 300 on day one. My total cholesterol cuz I was doing keto. On day 90 it went to 450. Total cholesterol 300ish to 450. My LDL was around, I believe, 150 on day one or 200 somewhere around there. But on day 90, it went to 350. 350. My HDL was optimal both times, over 60 both times. Triglycerides were under 70 both times. Nothing to um look at there. But with the LDL, right, 350, right? So I got the particle sizes done because it's not just as you talk about total LDL. It's about all right what percentage of that LDL is pattern B the small sticky variety that's not good and what percentage is pattern A large fluffy that's absolutely really important and the majority of my LDL particles were of course the large fluffy healthy variety. I had a very small percentage optimal percentage of the small sticky, right? But if I didn't get all those panels done and I simply just looked at my total LDL, total cholesterol, and my doctor, if I if I didn't understand this and my doctor would interpret it, they would think I would have I'm going to have a heart attack. I got to get you on a statin right away. Wouldn't you agree, Anthony? Oh, a lot. Yeah, most of them. Yeah. Yeah. It's um it is funny. it it is starting to change and some of it some of it's changing just from in in the opposite direction then then uh it really should be but sometimes it has to go that way because a lot of a lot of people like yourself you know coming in and and they're having they're extremely healthy they're doing really well and all of a sudden they get these cholesterol numbers and the doctor goes you're going to die I mean you're you're going to get a heart attack this week if you don't do any if you don't do something about this and they truly believe that because that is how they were trained and and and they they they are advocating for you they do believe that this is this is the best thing for you is is to correct this. Um I I don't agree with them but that is what they believe and so you know they are coming from a most of them are coming from a genuine place. There are others that I I have my doubts about but you know from like people's dayto-day doctor by and large will be coming from a from a good place. Um, and a lot of those, especially the ones that that, you know, are honest with themselves, when they see a patient like yourself come in and be like, "This is crazy, but they're seeing like you're crazy healthy otherwise, and everything's really good. Inflammation is low, insulin is A1C's I didn't mention was 5.1." Yeah. Everything looked great. Yeah. and um and uh and then looking at and they say okay well look we need to get like some imaging you know because cholesterol is not a disease atherosclerosis is a disease and so they say okay well this this is going to be this is going to be building up plaque so we should be able to see this growing you know and so um you get a scan all of a suen zero you have zero CAC you have zero plaque on a on a coronary angio uh you know corateed ultrasound looking at the you know the inal thickness and it is zero 00 and they're like, I I don't know what this is. I I don't know how to explain that. The ones that are that are inquisitive, they want to know why and they want to go, okay, that's interesting. And you're telling me that you come across this? Okay, this is saying, "Okay, yeah, I'd like to see that. I'd like to see that research that you're referring to." My mom's doctor was like that. And she was just like, I'd be really interested to see, you know, the research that that your son has been doing, you know, because like she reversed her diabetes in two months. She's like, "This doesn't happen. This has never happened my whole career." And my mom's doctor was a very bright lady. She was an MD/PhD from Harvard. Had a PhD in biochemistry from Harvard and MD there as well. And so, you know, she's no slouch. And so she but and she had that inquisitive nature of saying like, "What the hell did you do? What the hell happened? This doesn't happen. How the how the hell was it?" And then she, you know, had a talk with my mom and she was very interested. Like I' I'd really like to see this research. And so I went and talked to her, sent her a bunch of stuff and, you know, she, you know, the rest is history. But um you know there are there are some people that are that are coming around to this you know I mean even people in this space like Dr. David Unwin uh in the UK, really nice guy. He's he's put out a lot of papers on this because he has a lot of patients and he's publishing his patient data. And at first he was getting attacked, roundly attacked, but he saw this work with his patients. And one of his patients came in and he was doing the classic thing all his colleagues were doing to him, which was, oh, that's, you know, you have to be on diabetes medication, you have to do this, you have to do this. His patient basically hadn't filled her metformin prescription in like 10 months. and uh and he was just like, "Oh, okay. Well, that's not good. I'm going to have to call her in and have a talking to her and say, "Hey, you need to be better about your diabetes medication." She came in, she'd lost a ton of weight. She was super healthy and and she was pissed. She had a bone to pick with him. And she said, she said, "The reason I haven't been taking my metformin is cuz I don't need to anymore. I don't have diabetes anymore. My blood sugar is completely normal because I found this low carbohydrate approach." And you never told me that eating carbohydrates would turn into sugar and that would raise my blood sugar. You never told me that. I don't think that you're an are you how how how are you an actual doctor? You don't even know that carboh that eating carbohydrates raise your blood sugar and that's a horrible idea in a diabetic who's trying to control their blood sugar. And so they through their own, you know, inquisitive nature. they just stopped eating carb carb carbs and their blood sugar just came down down down and they reversed their own diabetes and he said that you know when you have a patient tell you that it's like are you even a doctor he's just like you need to pay attention and you need to sit up and listen like okay I' I've I've made I've I may have missed something big here I need to find out what it is and so then he started looking into it and and there there are just thousands of studies on ketogenic diets large-scale randomized control trials in humans and animals showing the massive benefits of ketogenic diets to to human health um and animal health even in um for with discrete endpoints and uh for for specific medical issues and you know it's the most robustly studied diet that is in the world and it has the most data behind it but it doesn't have a product behind it. There's no there's no multi-t trillion dollar company behind it that stands to profit from this like you do from the food and drug companies. And so there there's no multi-million multi-billion dollar marketing team behind this, pushing this out to everyone, getting it in the medical schools, getting it in the residency programs, teaching it to endocrinologists who are who are treating diabetes and um you know going to these big conferences and things like that, sponsoring them and um and and getting you know educational sort of things out on the news and you know being able to pay for spots on you know CNN or or um 60 Minutes, you know, like that lady that came out, you know, saying that no, no, obesity is is 100% genetic. You know, there's nothing you can do about it. All that sort of nonsense. And it turns out that person's on the payroll for OMPIC. And this is just what these companies do. A buddy of mine, my my roommate from medical school, you know, he ended up doing his residency in um radiology at Yale. So Yale trained interventional radiologist. And you know, now he does, you know, uh slightly different work. and um he was on a he was on like a morning talk show sort of thing um sort of in his area and he was talking about like the work he was doing for for that that company which is owned by something larger and he was talking about the benefits of this procedure that they do and I was like that was really cool you know that's awesome that they brought you on there like how how how'd that end up going like oh the company just set it up yeah they just pay them you know to to come on it's advertising so they they pay them to bring me on to talk about what we do so people find out about it so that they you know can come and get business. That's how that's done. And so all the time you see like a doctor, oh doctor coming in talking about this new procedure and this new thing that and the other they are paying to do that. And so you know there's no there's no benefit behind that. There's no there's no money-making operation. On the other end of that people aren't going to spend their their own private money to say hey we need to get this information out there. you know, it has to actually garner actual real life interest and and that's starting to happen. You're starting to see that sort of thing, but it's uh it's a lot harder, you know, because you can you can pay to get propaganda out there real quick. And um yeah, it's it's much much more difficult um you know, doing it the other way around. Yeah, well said. And there is a shift happening and it's exciting to talk about this and see what's happening out there with the propaganda. Yeah. In the book I talk about how important uh your environment is and how your environment determines your thoughts, your belief system and essentially your actions that you take or don't take. And of course in the United States at least in 2020 about 75% of all TV commercials were funded by big pharma. And out of the 195 countries in the world, only the United States and New Zealand actually allow for Big Pharma to market directly on to consumer on the television. And I don't watch TV, but when I have dinner with my mom on Thursdays, her television's on and I see it. It's it's one big pharma commercial after another. It's just brainwashing us to believe we are deficient in something in order to feel better. But we're not deficient. We don't have these symptoms and disease because of a lack of this medication. There's something else going on. There's a cause. And um there's a lot of money and propaganda. And the keto piece is interesting because you're right. There there are incredible studies that that I put in uh in chapter 7 of my book, Why Keto is the answer to metabolic freedom is the name of the chapter. There's there's several studies showing what it does for diabetes reversal. I mean, incredible. 53% some over 60%. There are no pharmaceuticals that touch what keto can do for things like type 2 diabetes. And you're right, you can't put it into a pill. Yeah, you could sell exogenous ketones. It's not the same thing. But what's makes what makes keto different than any other diet is that keto technically is not a diet. It's a metabolic process. So, it's not going away. It's not a fat. It's just a process we're all designed to use. That's why it's so powerful. Yeah, you can eat a diet to get into that metabolic process, but we're all designed to burn fat. And 93% of people that are metabolically unhealthy, I call them being on a keto deficiency. They forgot how to burn fat. Keto is the way. It's the first step towards changing your metabolism. And I love how it's gotten so many people into a carnivore diet as well. And I think a lot of people don't understand that when you're doing carnivore, you're also using ketones. You're you're primarily in ketosis unless you're having a bunch of protein in in the rare scenarios that it creates enough gluconneogenesis to kick you out. But carnivore is keto, too, because you're going to be eating mostly protein and fat and you're going to be using ketones. It's just kind of like an enhanced version of a a traditional keto diet. So, I love keto. Uh, one of the main reasons why I love it is because of what it does for mitochondrial health. We know ketones signal to the mitochondria to create mitochondrial biogenesis which creates more energy, more ATP at the same time lowers inflammation. And the brain has the most mitochondria. The heart is loaded with mitochondria, the testicles, the ovaries. So, these are the cells that are really going to benefit from being in a state of ketosis. It's one of my favorite tools that I use on myself and on my clients. It's really uh really powerful when it's done right. And I always like to teach people that it's more of a metabolic process than it is a diet and it's not going away. It's not a fad. It's a fact. It's not new. It's nuanced. Uh it's it's here to stay for forever because we've been doing it forever. Well, that I mean that's it, you I mean, how how can how can eating meat and being in ketosis be a fad um when when we've been doing this since humans have been humans? I mean, that's that's just like, you know, the our biologically appropriate diet, what humans have been eating for the longest period of time, that's like that's by definition not a fad. You know, fat is something that, you know, it's fly by night. It comes and goes. It's not very good and all that sort of stuff. This this has stood the test of time. Yeah. And so this this is standard American diet is actually more of a fat. That's what 50 60 years or so. That's that's really short time frame. That's it. And we forget that just because like in in most of our lifetimes, you know, that's how people have been eating. We think that any derivation from that is the is the fat. But in fact, we're living in the fat and we're trying to get back out to what people have been eating, you know, for a long time. That's right. You know, you know, people don't Yeah. People mis really misunderstand ketogenic um diets and they misunderstand ke ketosis things stress state because in biochemistry we we named this a fasting state and a fed state because when we were when it came down to when we could actually study biochemistry at a molecular level everybody was eating carbohydrates or eating mixed diet and so they said oh when you eat it looks like this and when you don't eat it looks like that. Oh, okay. So, that's a stressed state. You know, if you're lost in a desert, then this is this is what you kick into. This is your normal state because normal to eat and things like that. Neglecting the fact that when you eat anything on earth except carbohydrates, it also looks like this so-called fasting state. And so, we think that fasting is you're you're starving, you're stressed, that's not good. So, obviously being in that metabolic state is the stressed state. And and that's an assumption and it's wrong. and and you know in law it' be it' be what's called assuming a fact it's not an evidence and so that's never been proven. It's just an assumption that was made and um and uh and it's not borne out by the evidence because you know now my my niece actually she's premed um uh now as well at the University of Washington and she was telling me she's taking biochemistry um just last year that um yeah last year that um that they don't even call it a fed state and a fasting state anymore. They call it a carbohydrate metabolism and a non-carbohydrate metabolism and that's much more accurate. Um, so when you're in a non-carbohydrate metabolism, that's what we call ketosis. I think even that's a bit um, you know, it's not misnamed per se, but it's it's sort of a misn leading name. You think ketosis, you think keto acidosis. Oh, that's scary. Or you think that it's only a product of the ketones. you said, "Well, I need to have my ketones be, you know, 37 or else I'm not in ketosis and I'm not getting the benefit." Really, what it is, you're burning fat. You're in a fat burning metabolism. Or you're not. That's what I call it in the Yeah. sugar burner versus fat burner. That's pretty much it. Yeah. And that's what it is. And so, you know, I mean, the only real sugar burners out in in the world, like actually, are like hummingbirds and bumblebees, you know? I mean, that's sort of it, you know, things that drink nectar and stuff like that. But it the the vast majority of the of the rest of the animals out there are in a fat burning state and are in a so-called keto ketogenic fasting starvation state or something like that. It's not a starvation state. That's just a natural state. Fat is our main storage form of energy. It is extremely efficient and effective. And you know glycogen for a 65 kilo individual with 6% body fat maximum glycogen storage in their muscles and liver is about 2400 kilo calories. that same 65 kilo individual that's that's a small dude right so that's 150 160 lbs right um no not even that like 140 150 lbs right so like slender guy 6% body fat that 6% body fat on that on that smaller guy has over 35,000 kilo calories of energy so this is way more efficient over 15 times the amount of energy and so you get somebody who's you know taller and bigger is just going to you know expand so you you have nothing but energy. So this is a much more efficient way of storing energy and um and so you know that that is just a natural storage form of energy. It's not just like a you know just a an emergency situation yeah situation. That's it. Yeah. This all animals do this. So 70% of animal species are carnivores. So they don't eat any carbs. They're not getting anything else. They're eating meat. They're eating fat. Okay. like my dog. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. My my animals too. And um and so they're getting that. So they're in that sort of ketogenic starvation state. They're in a fat burning state. So they're eating the they're eating fat. They go for the fat first and they store that fat and they use that as energy because they may not get a meal every single day or five times a day or three meals and three snacks and all that other nonsense and have your alarm wake you up every two hours from sleep to eat your, you know, your gummy bears or something like that. sumo wrestler. Yeah, exactly. Some other whatever people are recommending these days to to make them, you know, obese and sick. And um but then you look at herbivores, you know, like, oh, but herbivores, you know, they eat plants and so they must be in in a carb burning state. It's like, well, but when they break down fiber, they don't break it down into its constituent glucose molecules. the the bacteria in their gut ferment it and break that down and actually convert that into short- chain fatty acids which are 100% saturated and then those bacteria die off and they get absorbed as as protein and and nutrients. So the vast majority of calories that they're getting are again from fat and protein secondarily from protein. 70 80% of calories from of an herbivore that are absorbed in the gut are from saturated fat. Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that. That's fascinating. Gorillas get 70% calories from fat, from saturated fat, and the rest from protein, very small amount from carbohydrates. Cows get nearly 80%. And um and uh and in fact, when you look at primates, when you look at the percentage of calories from fat, there's a direct correlation from percentage of calories of fat to brain size. Gorillas have the smallest brains per per body mass and they have the smallest it's like actually 70% calories from fat is actually the smallest amount and so as primates get get bigger and bigger brain they get actually more calories from fat in their absorption. It makes sense. Yeah. And then we're just going the other way. Oh, only get 10% of your calories from saturated fat. It's like all right well yeah I know what that's doing to your brain. Yeah. Oh my god. And all of your hormones, right? How much how much time do we have left because I want to see if I could get into the insulin piece real quick. How much time do we have? I we have time. That's fine. Okay, cool. Um, you know, because we were talking about keto and uh the fat burning versus sugar burning. Insulin is the switch that allows you to go from, you know, burning sugar to burning fat. And that is I I believe that high levels of insulin are it's the first domino to fall that leads to all these metabolic uh conditions. uh it starts with pre-diabetes, maybe high blood pressure, some weight gain, abdominal fat, visceral fat, and then it trickles into diabetes, which then opens up a whole host of different uh diseases like cancer, heart disease, kidney failure, etc. Um, and a lot of people are not testing their fasting insulin. And I referenced a few studies, one of them being the Whiteall study, too, and a few others showing that you could have full-blown insulin resistance and hyperinsulinemia for on average 6 to 14 years with none of your blood sugars changing at all. Meaning A1C looks perfect. Fasting insulin looks perfect. Meanwhile, you're full-blown insulin resistant because your pancreas is just just producing massive amounts of insulin to shuttle out that excess glucose until those receptor sites go deaf to the screens and then all of a sudden you are diagnosed with pre-diabetes and diabetes. So, I encourage people in the book and I know you talk about this, go get a fasting insulin test done, a blood test that you can do with finger prick. There's some companies that do that or at a lab. It's cheap. Sometimes you got to do it out of pocket, but it's not expensive. And you want that to be in the single digits. You you don't want to look at the standard reference range on that report because it's like 3 to 25. You want to be between three and seven single digits that shows good insulin sensitivity because you could have perfect A1C, which you're probably testing and maybe a fasting glucose that looks good, but full-blown insulin resistance, which is leading you towards metabolic syndrome, and you have no idea if you're not testing that fasting insulin. Hey guys, just want to take a second to thank our sponsor at Carnivore Bar. I don't promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat. For those times that you're out hiking, road tripping, or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat, fat, and salt if you want it, the Carnivore Bar is a great option. So, I like this product not because it's just pure meat, but also because I want the carnivore market to thrive as well. And the more we support meat only products, the more meat only products there will be available in the mainstream. So, if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind, check it out using my discount code Anthony to get 10% off, which also applies to subscriptions, giving you 25% off total. All right, thanks, guys. Yeah, I totally agree. I I always test uh fasting insulin all my patients, you know, so and use that as as a, you know, to, you know, to qualify the HBA1C and the fasting insulin and things like that. Smart. It's um Yeah, it's not something that gets taught. um you know because the thing is and I think it doesn't get taught because it doesn't have a product at the end of it. That's just like everything else we've been talking about. So you know we we're not going to get trained this way in medical school or in residency because there has to be a product at the end of that. So why are you testing for insulin if you're not going to do anything with it? You know, and that that's sought too. Don't don't order a scan. Don't order a test unless unless it's going to change management and and that's and that's good practice. But um this should this should change This should change your management. It's just what are you going to change it with? You know, the stuff's coming from the drug company. So, as soon as your your blood sugar is going up, oh, sure, put them on Yeah. blood blood sugar lowering medication, but the insulin's up. Well, we don't have any medication that just lowers insulin, you know. So, there's nothing to do there. And um you know, and and the cat's out of the bag at this point, but they're they're trying to stuff it back in as much as they can. Um and uh because they they don't want people to understand that that low carbohydrate restriction is is a is a known remedy for insulin resistance and um even pre-diabetes diabetes. So you know you you see that you see that warning flag. So I see people and they're in their insulin their you know their blood sugar's fine their HB1C is fine but their fasting insulin's 35. Yeah. You know, it's just like this is this is the shot across the bow. You know, this is really we we've caught this early, you know, before. This has caused too much of a problem, but your body's struggling right now. And this is this the wheels are starting to fall off. This is this is these are the cracks in the dam that are going to blow the whole thing if we don't fix this straight away. And um and it's very important and most most doctors don't know that. And and they wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. They wouldn't they wouldn't understand. you just do therapeutic carbohydrate restriction, intermittent fasting. I mean, however you want to do it. I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. Yeah. But it's um you know, there there are interventions that you can do. It's just that we're not taught them in medical school. And uh so yeah, so I think it's very important. We just have to we have to educate people. We have to educate ourselves as clinicians. And hopefully you know uh these sorts of books and um and discussions will you know doctors in the audience will hopefully learn this as well and and if they don't then the patients going to their doctors saying hey why don't you know this um that will spark them sort of like like I did with Dr. Unwin. Yeah I love that story. Uh it it's true like you know these days individuals who listen to your podcast read the books that are out there they understand more about nutrition than than their convention most of these conventional doctors because they're not taught this information. I mean you lived it yourself with with the um the insulin piece. I mean, we could save so much money in terms of the United States spend on health care if we had everybody test fasting insulin because um I know you've had an Andy Shinov on your podcast who's also a good friend of mine from Join Crowd Health and I learned from him where you spend $4.6 6 trillion per year on healthcare in the US which would be the fourth largest GDP in the world and one out of every four dollars are spent on diabetes primarily type two and think about the fact that it's preventative first of all it's reversible and if everybody just got a fasting insulin like it would dramatically reduce those numbers about 50 to 60% right now of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic and once you have diabetes I was sharing offline with you right once you have diabetes. What happened with my dad, it's it's not the diabetes that's ending people's lives. It's really rare to die from type two diabetes. There are diabetic comas and rare exceptions, but it's what the diabetes leads to. It's the cancer, the heart disease, the stroke, the kidney failure. It's the diabetes leads to all of that. And there's a study I referenced in the book making the point uh on how destructive high levels of blood sugar are inside of your body. Of course, we measure that with with an A1C, which is giving you roughly a 90-day average of your blood sugars. And the study referenced that if your A1C is 7.5% or higher, which is full-blown diabetic, every year it's at that level, they appro they estimate approximately 100 days come off your lifespan. So, if it's at that level for 15 years, 7.5% or higher, you lose about 4 years off your lifespan. That's how destructive high levels of blood glucose is. It's not the salt that's raising your blood pressure. By the way, it's the high levels of blood sugar. It lowers nitric oxide, creates vaso constriction, then your heart has to pump harder, and that's what raises blood pressure, right? So, it's not the salt, it's not the burger, it's it's the bread that the burger is in. It's just uh I know your audience gets this, and I I wrote the book so your friends could get this. So, get the book for your friends so they could understand the messaging here because sometimes it just goes on deaf ears. I've seen that all the time with my friends. Yeah, it can for sure. I think you know the the thing is is that I think you touched on I think the main the main obstacle that we have here is that you know we we could save mass like you said $4.6 trillion a year we spend on on um healthcare and things like that. We could save massive amount I mean in in the billions if not in the trillions. I mean, hundreds of billions, if not trillions. Um, by by just doing little little simple things like that. Um, which is why we've got an uphill battle because what we're saving in money, we're saying, "Hey, we're going to save all this money. We're going to save hundreds of billions of dollars, that's coming directly out of someone else's profit margin." Yeah. So now you've got a multi-t trillion dollar industry that does not that wants to stay a multi-t trillion dollar industry and now you're threatening that multi-t trillion dollar industry and they've got the ad campaigns they've got the the marketing um budget and so that's why you're seeing just all these attacks on carnivore on keto on all these all these influencers being paid and we and we know a lot of these influencers are being paid have been paid haven't correctly uh disclosed that fact and have had FTC warnings and things like that. Multitudes of people have doing have been um caught with this stuff. I saw a recent one where some lady um who had like 1.5 million followers or something like that. But it was it was a very manufactured account. I think this this sort of looks like like um like sort of like a paid person to get put up here because the the the account is is barely a year old and um and it was professional videos from from day one and it was getting almost no views and all of a sudden just go crazy viral whatever. She got 1.5 million followers and it's been around for less than a year. So, you know, could have been organic, just had a professional start and just really made a a go at it, you know, you know, very well could have been. These things are very well scripted, very well edited, lighting, all that sort of stuff. So, either way, it's very well done. But it was all plant-based. It was all plant-based. Here's my recipe for like plant-based, you know, nut ball, protein ball sort of thing. And it's just all plant. I I I went through a lot of these videos. I didn't see a single time she was cooking eggs or making anything like that. And it's always a sort of fitness page. And then more more recent um post is about I tried the carnivore diet because I wanted to get abs and I yeah I totally got abs but then the problem set in. I got PCOS. I got sick and I got acne. And she was showing her pictures of her in the hospital with like a drip in her hand and things like that. I'm like wow. No one needs IV fluids or medications for PCOS. No one has been u hospitalized for PCOS. That's not a thing or acne. I mean, these are just not things. And so, um and then it was just like, yeah, you know, I I just feel so strongly about this, you know, because I just don't want anyone else to suffer like I did. Um you know, it's just not worth it just to get a bit of abs or whatever. It's just like no one's saying this is for abs. everyone's saying this is for health and and improving health and um and she said that you know she did it for 8 weeks. She did carnivore for 8 weeks and it just really destroyed her health. And then after that it's taken uh 12 weeks or 3 months 5 months total for her, you know, to get back to where she is now. But she's like, "Oh, it's still healing. It's still a work in progress." Page has only been around for a year. There's not five months of carnivore and then carnivore, you know, recovery content on there. There isn't a single thing. There isn't a single post about her trying carnivore or doing carnivore in the hospital or recovering or having acne. This is the only thing. It's the only one. And so, you know, this um you know, I'm I'm just calling [ __ ] on this, right? That is highly suspicious, bro. the next day that she put this out, other large accounts, some of whom we know and recognize and are known to have been paid by Processed Food Industries and been warned by the FTC that this was not acceptable to, you know, in the way that they declared it. Um they came out the next like day or you know 2 days after with a fully scripted perfectly edited thing about oh look at this and all these damages. Oh this is wise is destroying her hormones and blah blah blah and you know this is so dangerous or whatever and they they were published on the same day. So people sent me these things. They sent people you know these people's responses and I looked at the date. They were they were posted on the exact same day which was a day or two after the original post and I was just like that that screams coordinated effort. Yeah, absolutely. And um and it's it's not expensive to do. I mean these people have a price and we know that they they um they do and you know they already have a bone to pick with this sort of thing anyway. It's not going to be it's not going to even need a high price, you know, but um you know, it's just you see this coordinated effort obviously seeing it attack pieces in different you know media outlets. I had a a lady from the Guardian who inter wanted to interview me about um the carnivore diet and she completely like just did a complete hack job of this tried to like you know word things in a way that it was I was an alternative med medical practitioner. If you look at the definition of that, you're talking about acupuncturists and car and chiropractors and things like that. Wouldn't didn't call me. It just said Anthony Chaffy. I know Cha didn't call me from to me by my title as doctor. Didn't say that I was a medical doctor. It was trying to to really dismiss and diminish um me as as you know and and my credentials in order to dismiss and diminish my arguments. And then had somebody else come in who had some ridiculous argument about how well Neanderthalss we found some seeds in their teeth. So obviously they're eating a whole bunch of grains like yeah idiot. Like the ones from like super recently not from 300,000 years ago or a million years ago you jackass. And not certainly the ones that are in the in the Arctic Circle during the ice ages. Like you [ __ ] So you know I mean it's just so stupid. But he was referred to as doctor. I mean he's not even he's not even a medical doctor. He's he's like a PhD, you know, ridiculous university lecturer, but he's doctor so and so and I'm a alternative medical practitioner like and and all sorts of other things as well. And I I ended up actually, you know, writing an email to like the editor and as many people as I could tag in there. And I was just like, this is [ __ ] I this is this is bordering on slander now. And you know, I I have legal recourse to come after you for this sort of stuff. And so they actually changed a whole bunch of it, but they they didn't change a lot of it. I I I just didn't bother to like go after them for the rest of it. And um but yeah, we see this all the time. I mean, these things are completely paid and orchestrated, you know, and u you always get the most flak when you're when you're above the target. And I think that's that's where we're at right now. I agree. Wow. That's wild. But, you know, even with all of that propaganda money, uh organization they have, I mean, the searches for the vegan diet is is is plummeting year after year. you know, beyond meat burger stocks like plummeting, right? Searches for like carnivore and meat are increasing. So, it's not working. I think our messaging is working better. This is a grassroots approach and with the whole, you know, movement focus, I don't want to get political, but movement focused on on metabolic health that's happening in America is incredible. So, with even with all that, they're still plummeting in terms of the vegan diet searches. Yeah. Well, you know, and that's the thing, you know, and what they forgot, too, is that um there's there's no bad press, you know, all news is good news. And so, you know, you're you're saying all these things about people. When I was on CNN Australia, you know, they they we had hours of dialogue recorded and they used about 5 minutes. It wasn't it wasn't a bad five minutes. It was a decent clip from that, but you know, then they had other things. They sort of lumped me in with all these other people. they're trying to sell supplements and alternative sort of whatever. And and um and I and I in that interview I explicitly said, "Hey, this is something that gets people off medications and away from supplements. You don't need supplements. This you don't need expensive things to do. You just eat properly and your body works." And then and then they lump me in with all these people that are selling supplements and how all that's a that's a scam and all that sort of stuff. And I was just like, well, that that's that's a bit dishonest, you know, and um and uh but either way, in even with only just that clip and not actually showing, you know, the full discussion or or you know, more of the merits of our discussion, um the people in the in the the comments, not even like, you know, carnivore people, these people that just saw it, I mean, they they saw through that really quick. They're like, "Yeah, you know, that that guy who just eats meat, he looks health he looks way healthier than all of them, you know, and he's the only guy not selling something." Yeah. You know, and so I was like a lot of those guys, like people who didn't even know me, didn't know about the carnivore diet, there were just like I had a lot of people that that started following me because of like, "Hey, I saw you in 60 minutes." And I just thought that was like they didn't give you enough time. That was [ __ ] And it made me look into it, which is like led me down this rabbit hole. I was like, "Oh, wow. I think I think that's actually there's something there, you know. So I I think they they forgot that that that that cardinal rule of media. I mean, Barman Bailey, he if if people weren't talking about him and in the media, he would under a suited him make an attack article on Barnam, he's you know, you know, PG Bar, he's a he's a jerk. He's a this, this is terrible, just to create a controversy so that he kept people's names in his head and and they they I think they messed up with that one. Yeah, I think they did as well. You got the publicity. Uh and yeah, I know you're a good dude. you you actually care about people. You're not trying to push a product or you don't have a hidden agenda. You actually genuinely care about humanity and you're doing a great job teaching a lot of people, including myself. I learn from you all the time, bro. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. And and you're doing the same. I mean, we've we've talked a lot offline and, you know, I think we you know, we we really align in a lot of these things because like you we we've gone through things in our lives that that we don't like and we don't want that to happen again to other people. and uh so I I really appreciate you and and what you're doing and and your new book. So, thank you very much. I appreciate it, man. Yeah, I I appreciate you. Thank you for letting me come on here and discuss it. I I'll just share with your audience that um the book we're giving away some some bonuses for anybody who orders the book. It's a an entire course for free on the metabolism that I developed uh 12 lessons on keto fasting and metabolic health. And we also have some exclusive interviews in that course with Dr. Jason Fun, Megan Ramos, Cynthia Thurlo, Dr. Daniel Pompa, and Gary Brea. Uh, all that's for free. Yeah, all of that's for free. All you have to do is go to metabolicfreedombook.com, order the book on either Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Spotify. There's a whole bunch of different options. And then put your name, order number, and an email, and you're automatically sent the bonuses with the uh with the interviews. Uh, the book is available on hardcover, Kindle, and Audible. I narrated the audible myself and you could either Yeah, it was a pain in the butt by the way. Um, you could pre-order it depending on when this comes out, but even if you This is after the fact if the book's um already out, you could still go to that same website and get the bonuses. So, it's metabolicfreedombook.com to get the book. Well, make sure to put that in the description so everyone can look downstairs and check that out. I encourage people to do check that out and uh, you know, read it themselves. Like I said, there's going to be some highle stuff there for people who have done this before and also give a new look and an angle to help your arguments and your your understanding of this. So when you're having these, you know, conversations, you know, with people in your life, they're saying, "Well, that's not true because blah blah blah blah blah," you have more ammo. you know, the more the more, you know, educated you are on this, the more of both sides of the arguments that you understand, the better you're going to be able to to argue your point or to come to a more uh nuanced uh approach with it as well. You know, we don't just believe what we believe just because we believe it. You know, look at the facts and evidence yourself and decide for yourself. And um and then when you thoroughly understand that sort of thing, then it's very easy to relay that to other people and then you know give that to a friend or a family member who may need a little bit of help along. Uh Ben, thank you so much. Absolute pre pleasure uh to have you on. No, it's an honor to come back, bro. And yeah, to your point, there's there's 274 citations in the book, so there's references to back up, you know, any of the scientific claims that are made in the book. Uh Anthony, you're amazing, bro. I appreciate you. That's so cool to see, you know, your YouTube channel take off and just your your messaging take off. It's it's it's it's amazing. I love it and it's just the starting point for you. I can't wait to read your book whenever you finish your book. So, it's an honor, bro. I got I got to do that. So, get it done. Thanks, man. Well, I really appreciate it, man. And thank you all very much for watching. Hopefully, you enjoyed that. Please do go and uh follow Ben and look at his work and uh and get his book and check it out as well at the link below. And if you like that, please do send this on to somebody you think would uh be helped and benefited by it or leave a comment down below and and click a like to try to get this out to more people. Thank you all very much and we'll see you next time. Hey guys, thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say. If you like it, then please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast. And if you're on YouTube, then please hit that little bell and subscribe. And that'll let you know anytime I have a new video out, which should be every week, if not more. And if you could share this with your friends, that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I'm doing.